The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philco
    Here is Perry Hughes using what appears to be a thin flexible pick. I wouldn't say he was picking very hard but there are plenty of dynamics.
    I love the string-to-string definition he's getting there ... not to mention his fantastic playing.

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  3. #52

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    My 2c, for what it's worth:

    When I play electric, I play mainly hybrid picking and legato. I have the amp, so for speed I tend to "cheat". I play from light to hard, depending on if I want to drive the sound/amp more or less. No rest strokes, mainly alternate picking with some hybrid fingerpicking on some runs.

    On my selmer copy I tend play mainly "hard", ie. rest strokes, and tend to pick most of the notes (because even though you CAN make legato playing work also on acoustic, I haven't mastered it yet) mainly because it sounds the best.

    And then there's the nylon string which I love to play also, mainly fingerstyle. I don't have any dedicated nails (because of my other hobbies), so to get a sharper sound I have to play pretty aggressive finger style rest strokes. Works pretty well to my ears, but I'm aware my Classical playing style is a vulgar blend of techniques from bass playing, electric guitar and classical/flamenco styles. For example, I pick it like I do on bass (still learning to use the thumb independently), base the guitar on my right leg gypsy/flamenco style and bend the strings like a blues player.

    ...so my point (if there was any) - different styles for different situations, I guess.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by TKO
    My 2c, for what it's worth:

    When I play electric, I play mainly hybrid picking and legato. I have the amp, so for speed I tend to "cheat". I play from light to hard, depending on if I want to drive the sound/amp more or less. No rest strokes, mainly alternate picking with some hybrid fingerpicking on some runs.

    On my selmer copy I tend play mainly "hard", ie. rest strokes, and tend to pick most of the notes (because even though you CAN make legato playing work also on acoustic, I haven't mastered it yet) mainly because it sounds the best.

    And then there's the nylon string which I love to play also, mainly fingerstyle. I don't have any dedicated nails (because of my other hobbies), so to get a sharper sound I have to play pretty aggressive finger style rest strokes. Works pretty well to my ears, but I'm aware my Classical playing style is a vulgar blend of techniques from bass playing, electric guitar and classical/flamenco styles. For example, I pick it like I do on bass (still learning to use the thumb independently), base the guitar on my right leg gypsy/flamenco style and bend the strings like a blues player.

    ...so my point (if there was any) - different styles for different situations, I guess.
    I'm guessing you aren't playing Villa Lobos etudes then? :-)

    I have the same problem with no nails. As soon as I started doing the GJ thing they got shredded.

    On the other hand long nails are a bit gross, so *shrugs*. On the occasions when I do fingerstyle (for instance I play a little Dowland in one band I do) the amplification compensates, and I'm not really going for a legit Segovia thing in this case anyway.

    I think nailless classical playing can sound great and depending on the instrument project surprisingly well. It was the technique most widely used pre-Segovia.... But Rob Mckillop is your man for that....
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-19-2017 at 09:59 AM.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Picking too hard on electric guitar can be a bit of a problem.

    I am told by someone lucky enough to play with Jim Hall once (he's on forum and knows who he is haha) that Jim's touch was very light.

    I agree with the posters who point out the importance of dynamic control.
    Jim Hall's comment that he used an amp to play softer is key here. It's like the difference between a bicycle and a Ferrari: you have to drive an acoustic guitar but an electric in many cases almost drives itself. Check out this Cream-era Clapton clip where he's barely touching the strings but still manages to produce a gigantic sound:



    Of course, that's a solid-body guitar matched with a Marshall so it's an extreme example. On the other hand, sometimes you just gotta testify and there's no doubt a critical point where playing too lightly or rather not shaping a note adequately (which largely relies on the actions of the non-picking hand) gives the wimpy, unfocussed tone remarked upon by princeplanet.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    Jim Hall's comment that he used an amp to play softer is key here. It's like the difference between a bicycle and a Ferrari: you have to drive an acoustic guitar but an electric in many cases almost drives itself. Check out this Cream-era Clapton clip where he's barely touching the strings but still manages to produce a gigantic sound:



    Of course, that's a solid-body guitar matched with a Marshall so it's an extreme example. On the other hand, sometimes you just gotta testify and there's no doubt a critical point where playing too lightly or rather not shaping a note adequately (which largely relies on the actions of the non-picking hand) gives the wimpy, unfocussed tone remarked upon by princeplanet.
    Haha! That is a Spinal Tap moment if ever there was one!

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I'm guessing you aren't playing Villa Lobos etudes then? :-)

    I have the same problem with no nails. As soon as I started doing the GJ thing they got shredded.

    On the other hand long nails are a bit gross, so *shrugs*. On the occasions when I do fingerstyle (for instance I play a little Dowland in one band I do) the amplification compensates, and I'm not really going for a legit Segovia thing in this case anyway.

    I think nailless classical playing can sound great and depending on the instrument project surprisingly well. It was the technique most widely used pre-Segovia.... But Rob Kirkpatrick is your man for that....
    Yep, I ain't doing any classic repertoire anytime soon. I mainly tend to do my own stuff anyways, I just love the sound and the feel of classical guitar. Actually I like it played with a pick, too - it has it's own snappy sound.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Haha! That is a Spinal Tap moment if ever there was one!
    ...then there's this clip featuring Jeff Beck, the real prototype for Tufnel:


  9. #58

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    As for Peter Bernstein, I would say his picking is situation dependent.

    Try taking youtube of players you like and slow down the video to 50% and watch the right hand. Speed it back up and listen to what comes out. Take a variety of situation (ballads, up-tempo bob, blues, etc).

    For me, I'm always searching for that percussive polytone "pop". I tend to think of a guitar as a drum set with notes. Thin sounding does not resonate with me. For others, it sounds great.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    ...then there's this clip featuring Jeff Beck, the real prototype for Tufnel:

    Oh yeah, that's totally where Nige got his material from, no doubt ! Even looks like him dunnit?

    But at least Beck knows more than 2 licks...

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    Jim Hall's comment that he used an amp to play softer is key here. It's like the difference between a bicycle and a Ferrari: you have to drive an acoustic guitar but an electric in many cases almost drives itself.
    This is pretty much how I approach it, when amplified. Even clean, I let the amplifier do the work; I crank the amp and dial back volume on my guitar, and when I want sustain or go to legato playing I modulate the force in attacking the strings -- dig in, brighter and louder, and when I want it clean I lay back on the right-hand energy.

    In either case, I'm very mindful of my picking hand. It's just that when amplified, I'm focusing on a soft attack unless I want grit and attack; when playing an acoustic, I know that everything relies on how I touch the instrument.
    Last edited by Thumpalumpacus; 08-21-2017 at 09:54 AM.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carloscepinha
    Hello guys, some people tell me my picking too light!

    Usualy for me thats when I get the best tone.
    When playing weak/cheap amps in jams, the amp either distorts on clean or sounds too trebbly and sometimes sound better with other people. Like many guitar students i've met, that play harder. Most of them even use higher action than myself, some teachers and other musicians around me say it gets better tone, articulation is better, etc.

    When the solo climax I can hear them make the notes slap on the fretboard (ocasionally happens to me, specially as strings get older and loose tension).

    Pickup height might also affect the sound and de strenght needed to pick.


    Some other guys I've met, do play with a lighter picking, lower strings, sometimes pickup closer to strings (more feedback issues). Usualy play more virtuosistically. Both "sides" have great players.

    I've met 1 guy that was picking (in my opinion) too light, using insanely low strings and 0.50 or 0.70 pointy picks. The sound wasn't very pleasing but it was strange how fast he could go with such thin pick.

    Is there any guidance on this?

    Opinions and examples on picking?

    How light is too light? How strong is too strong?
    Rotem Sivan, Peter Bernstein, Mike Moreno, Lage Lund? How strong do they pick? etc
    Highly educated Guess is for the People you mention above- and for ' Classic Jazz Swing Technique' - which there IS NO exact thing- BUT
    The People you mentioned above are all picking hard enough to play an Acoustic Guitar with .012s or .013s and get a ' normal medium volume 'Tone from it without adjusting to it.

    I can tell Peter Bernstein for example despite being extremely Melodic and super skilled has a powerful , precise right hand when he picks.

    Lage Lund is probably the softest of that Group - but he is still not sneaking across the strings with a floppy pick...


    REMEMBER- they also have a softer attack
    for Ghost Notes and smoother stuff but generally these Guys are NOT picking like
    Yngvie Malmsteen ( great at what he does- but listen to him on Acoustic he does not fully energize the strings for Acoustic ).

    There are Forum Members who have done
    Master Classes with some of these People- so I will defer to them IF they say otherwise.

    Generally- advanced Pickers ( even people like Guthrie Govan ) use heavier picks and control Angles and Depth .

    You can still pick softly with a heavier pick.

    HOWEVER- IF you sound good and like the results at present - don't change.

    There are probably some Jazzers with a very light picking attack...but not any of those that you mentioned- the Rhythmic Precision in the Solos in Jazz requires a lot of right hand control .

    Even Guthrie Govan who uses lighter strings has a quite powerful right hand .

    You lower your pickups a bit and raise the action and get used to heavier picks for those you refer to.

    Good demo here- I do not agree with needing pointy and do not agree with only letting a tiny amount of pick protrude which he says..but see the soft picking and the harder picking .

    Jazz Guys and R&B Fusion Guys ( like me lol) and even most shredders usually use
    COMMANDING TECHNIQUE on the Guitar - then back off when needed.

    I realize that it is considered poor Forum etiquette to NOT post examples - but I speak from experience and anyone who swings precisely will need a firm technique in Practice .
    And almost NONE of the Fusion Players from the 70s were/ are soft pickers.

    Metheny is not even a soft picker on most notes at least in his practice routine :

    I know less about him and his Music than most of you but I can hear it and see it and know what firm accurate picking sounds like .
    Before you can back of on certain scales or patterns - they have to be nailed medium firm unless you are a legato player .

    In the Rock World - Yngwie Malmsteen would probably be one of the few Master Pickers with a light picking attack - you can tell on some Acoustic clips ..sometimes sounds light medium on Acoustic.

    You have to make the Guitar your Bitch to really play it ..THEN back off - this does not mean hard but medium firm at least in Practice till you can nail it THEN put the dynamics where you want



    Above is exactly what I call medium firm it is not soft .
    Neither is Benson .
    Neither is Moreno .

    Last edited by Robertkoa; 04-04-2018 at 08:51 PM.

  13. #62

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    Most rock players I know prefer heavy picks. The stiffness aids control when playing fast passages.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    Summary- in Rock with a lot of Gain you may get away with a really light attack and thin pick ( Maybe - but rarely ).
    I doubt it very much .. You probably can get away with a heavy pick and a light touch. Paul Gilbert (Who I mentioned earlier) is the one of the few rock guys I know that plays with a thin pick, but his touch is not light .. so he still has that rock attack and precision.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkirk
    I don't find any correlation between the musicians I enjoy listening to and the minutia of their technique. Each technique has its strengths and weaknesses.

    Dynamics and light picking are no more exclusive than dynamics and hard picking. At least in an amplified setting. I suppose if you play carved archtops acoustically maybe these things matter more.
    Well- if you want to articulate similar to George Benson or even Norman Brown etc- it will be almost impossible to do it with a .50 Pick of celluloid or flexible material. Unless you knife pick ( Benson/ Gales).

    I promise.


    WEAKNESS- thin pick and weak right hand- you could NOT have been in that video.

    We don't barely pick the string and have great Articulation and Timing- show me someone who does.
    There's probably someone who has a very light attack and is great at playing Jazz but less than 1% and the OP asked about a few specific Players.

    Even Guys with a smooth attack like Lage Lund or Metheny still have a firm grip on the pick and NEED it.



    Never a close follower of Metheny - hearing this Video only this year I was shocked that his chops are this good -he's a force on the Guitar physically ( and musical skills he had at 18 , 19 etc.) as well as musically.

    Forearms like a Drummer- lol.

    Those of you with good ears will probably hear that even Metheny is NOT using a very light attack here.

    I know all this from EXPERIENCE but you should be able to understand the logic of what I say.






    Even people who pick Jazz with Thumb get a large callous at contact...

    Guitar is a Violent Sport like Football and MMA ....lol...not really but just a tiny tiny bit.

    And I have spent a lot of Time to learn to Play it Rough if needed .

    I have sold Music to Ad Agencies in the Past...so not the Sensitive Artist Type... and don't mind being challenged - when the Time is right.

    You want to choose the Place and Time ( deadline? -that's for Clients- you have to pay for that).

    Polished Productions sell Music..not Mickey Mouse Phone Demos..by the way.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 08-28-2017 at 11:51 AM.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    I doubt it very much .. You probably can get away with a heavy pick and a light touch. Paul Gilbert (Who I mentioned earlier) is the one of the few rock guys I know that plays with a thin pick, but his touch is not light .. so he still has that rock attack and precision.
    Al Di Meola used a light Fender pick and 0.09s on his early stuff (Elegant Gypsy, Casino). He used a Fender heavy and 0.10s on his acoustic for the Friday Night in San Francisco stuff.

    So, arguably the fusion guitarist with the most incredible right hand alternate picking technique of all time was doing light/light. He also had absolutely insane tone with the Les Paul and Fender Twin setup on those early records.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecj
    Al Di Meola used a light Fender pick and 0.09s on his early stuff (Elegant Gypsy, Casino). He used a Fender heavy and 0.10s on his acoustic for the Friday Night in San Francisco stuff.

    So, arguably the fusion guitarist with the most incredible right hand alternate picking technique of all time was doing light/light. He also had absolutely insane tone with the Les Paul and Fender Twin setup on those early records.
    Well the OP asked about specific Players and very light picking which neither the Players he asked about use.

    And of ALL the people on the Planet you select Al DiMeola as someone who is Articulate on Guitar BUT uses a light picking attack ?

    Shoe size / pick thickness aside have you listened to Al DiMeola ?
    Have you played an Acoustic Guitar with a pick near the limits of it's dynamic range ?
    Do you know what that sounds like ?

    Paco was maybe closer than Al but they were both close to where you can pick harder - and it will barely get any louder - if it all that's the limit .

    That is not indicative of a light picker.
    That is indicative to to OP that he may want to pick harder to emulate most Jazz and Fusion Guitarists.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 08-22-2017 at 02:42 PM.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    I assume you are just guessing..
    Regardless of string gauge or shoe size DiMeola's right hand was medium to strong.
    Why would I guess what pick gauge DiMeola uses? He stated it in his old Hal Leonard transcription book that I had when I was like 12.

    He definitely plays hard, but you can do that with a light pick on electric, I guess. Probably needed the heavier pick on acoustic to project.

    Many of us have caught up to and surpassed DiMeola - especially vertically - that was 40 years ago..
    Acoustic does not sound that way feather picking with a very light flexible pick.
    Try reading my post. I said light pick, light strings on electric, and heavy pick, light strings on acoustic.

    Also, sometimes this forum, man. Please post a clip of you "surpassing" DiMeola's alternate picking technique. This place...

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecj
    Why would I guess what pick gauge DiMeola uses? He stated it in his old Hal Leonard transcription book that I had when I was like 12.

    He definitely plays hard, but you can do that with a light pick on electric, I guess. Probably needed the heavier pick on acoustic to project.



    Try reading my post. I said light pick, light strings on electric, and heavy pick, light strings on acoustic.

    Also, sometimes this forum, man. Please post a clip of you "surpassing" DiMeola's alternate picking technique. This place...
    Music is very competitive - we are competing right now.

    This is not 'The Forum's fault'.

    It's me .


    It was not nor IS it my Goal to play up and down Scales.

    And my CD will have some speedy stuff but will NOT be a ' speedfest ' ear fatigueing CD throwback to the Fusion Era or the 80s Shred Era.

    As I said there are thousands of people that can play scales ( not my Goal nor my main Musical Skill ) as fast as Al D did in the 70s.
    Thousands. Me included -BFD.

    The part that 'surpasses ' is the Vertical Application of Alt Picking and 'Swing' and other Rhythms in the Lines.
    Specifically Al D did not Alt Pick triplets/septuplets in triads across 3 strings at similar Tempi to his ' Modes'.
    Or cascade overlapping vertical patterns into smooth sheets of sound with Alt Picking- that's the ' surpass' part and Hard Swing Urban and some Polymetric Stuff..

    And Rhythm Guitar will surpass..because they weren't even trying.




    The speed isn't the main thing- the crosspicking is the 'Thing'.
    And Rhythm Guitar and Voicings.

    And I need a stiff pick to do it...and it took a long long long long Time to develop and stabilize.

    And even though you are a big Hero of mine I am not lying to impress you ...lol.

    As I' ve said before - it would be funnier and entertaining in some ways if I could barely play -but not the case...





    I don't mind being challenged though- a reasonable request and possibly even a Marketing Tool.
    I will Post what I want to and where I want to -when ready.

    And you will probably think I am 'sweeping' or' Economy Picking' across the Strings- and I won't bother to debate with you..

    A Business thing.


    Anything else ?
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 08-23-2017 at 03:05 PM.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    I don't mind being challenged though- a reasonable request and possibly even a Marketing Tool.
    I will Post what I want to and where I want to -when ready.
    We'll all wait with bated breath for you to post clips demonstrating that you have stronger picking technique than Al DiMeola.

    Most phones can take vids, so no need to wait for your grand CD release.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    The speed isn't the main thing- the crosspicking is the 'Thing'.
    Is cross-picking a name for the picking technique Pasquale Grasso uses?

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    Is cross-picking a name for the picking technique Pasquale Grasso uses?
    https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/newre...reply&p=676423

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    Is cross-picking a name for the picking technique Pasquale Grasso uses?
    Cross picking usually refers to the technique of playing across strings using alternate picking, rather than sweep picking. Bluegrass guys do this a lot.

    Steve Morse is probably the most amazing ever at it, and can rip about as fast as folks sweep pick. Reg demonstrated doing this insanely fast on a thread I started about this topic a while ago.

  24. #73

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    Cross picking can be ddu rather than alternate. This is the way Lage Lund, Chico Pinheiro and Clarence White do it.


  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecj
    Cross picking usually refers to the technique of playing across strings using alternate picking, rather than sweep picking. Bluegrass guys do this a lot.

    Steve Morse is probably the most amazing ever at it, and can rip about as fast as folks sweep pick. Reg demonstrated doing this insanely fast on a thread I started about this topic a while ago.
    Thanks, but that doesn't answer the question.

    EDIT: I asked whether cross-picking is a name for the picking technique Pasquale Grasso uses.

    Quote Originally Posted by JazzMuzak
    Pasquale grasso talks about it in his master class. He picks the same way.
    Quote Originally Posted by JazzMuzak

    Also, it's a variation of what Troy Grady calls "CROSS picking." I used to pick the "Benson" was, but since I've switched to this method I haven't looked back. Not only can I transcribe Bird now, but I can play the double time licks, too! Who'dve thunk!

    EDIT: I accidentally called it circle picking previously. It's NOT circle picking as Troy Grady named it, but CROSS picking.
    Last edited by destinytot; 08-23-2017 at 07:08 PM. Reason: addition

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    Thanks, but that doesn't answer the question.

    EDIT: I asked whether cross-picking is a name for the picking technique Pasquale Grasso uses.
    AFAIK TG uses the term cross-picking to refer to a specific mechanic used to negotiate strong hops in one note string picking.

    I don't think this has much to do with PGs technique though happy to corrected if wrong. PG is essentially what rock players would call an economy picker - at least that's what he covers in his lesson online.