Speed on the Guitar

[joaopaz]

Hi guys, I’d like to hear your thoughts on this subject.


Try to think out of the box, if you can – because there are so many things taken for granted that may or may not be true.
For instance, is plawing slow and clean as possible fundamental? I think so, but is it enough or it can only take you so far?


Personally I’ve been working on speed diligently for years, but I seem to hit a wall always at the same threshold – of course, the fact that I change guitars a lot, and that I jumped from several picking methods has played greatly against me. And 10 years ago I was 44… and age is relentless (or is it not?)


Anyway…


Anything speed related – Ideas! Good ones, let’s hear them.


Some possible starters:
It’s importance for you;
Ways that improve – that you know by experience that worked!
Related to age – because there are players at advanced ages that can play fast, but may have been doing it since early ages…
Speed related to knowledge – because if you don’t know what to play it doesn’t really matter that your fingers may be able to acomplish the task.
Mental processes involved;
Importance of warmups;
Accuracy and cleaness;
etc etc…


I don’t want to be rude, but please reply with ideas that you could prove by yourself and not just because you read them a thousand times.
Speak from an experienced point of view, what worked for you (and maybe what didn’t).


Cheers, everyone!

[Drumbler]

I'm re-phrasing this topic for perspective purposes...

>

"Hi guys, I’d like to hear your thoughts on this subject.

Try to think out of the box, if you can – because there are so many things taken for granted that may or may not be true.
For instance, is running slowly and cleanly as possible fundamental? I think so, but is it enough or it can only take you so far?

Personally I’ve been working on running speed diligently for years, but I seem to hit a wall always at the same threshold – of course, the fact that I change shoes a lot, and that I jumped from several running methods has played greatly against me. And 10 years ago I was 44… and age is relentless (or is it not?)

Anyway…

Anything speed related – Ideas! Good ones, let’s hear them.

Some possible starters:
It’s importance for you;
Ways that improve – that you know by experience that worked!
Related to age – because there are runners at advanced ages that can run fast, but may have been doing it since early ages…
Speed related to knowledge – because if you don’t know how to run it doesn’t really matter that your feet may be able to acomplish the task.
Mental processes involved;
Importance of warmups;
Accuracy and cleaness;
etc etc…

I don’t want to be rude, but please reply with ideas that you could prove by yourself and not just because you read them a thousand times.
Speak from an experienced point of view, what worked for you (and maybe what didn’t)."

[ronjazz]

Changing instruments may be less important than changing picks or picking approaches. When I was young, I played very fast with a pick, and fairly fast with fingers (classical studies for fingers, lessons with Bill Leavitt for pick). As I aged and discovered flamenco, my fingerstyle speed improved, but I pushed too hard and developed focal dystonia in my right hand, taking away much of my speed and coordination. Years of therapy and lessons failed to fix it, and I very recently decided to compromise with hybrid picking. I found this a great way to return to fingerstyle methods, as well as a great way to regain my plectrum speed. In doing so, and being analytical, I discovered that the pick shape, size and material were far more important than I had ever thought, both for execution and tone, along with positioning the guitar in the most advantageous way for both hands, and paying attention to back and neck tension. Size of your instrument is also a factor; those with smaller bodies really fight with larger guitars. I feel that finding the right instrument to practice on is helpful, many of the improvements will transfer to other guitars fairly easily once you've gotten your coordination together.

One hint I got from Gustav Assis-Brasil's hybrid picking book: work on the right hand without using the left for a period each day so you can focus on that set of movements. 15-20 minutes of right-hand alone can really accelerate your progress. Combining alternate, economy and sweep picking styles over time is also recommended, giving you more tools.

[christianm77]

Perhaps your problem is working on speed. Work on accurate subdivision, relaxation and efficiency.

I say this as someone who an play pretty fast. I can do this cold without a warm up.

AS soon as I start thinking 'oh I'll play something fast' - I can't do it.

[ColinO]

My problem isn't being able to play fast enough. It's being able to think fast enough. When I know what I want to play and how I want to play it, then I'm fast enough. When I'm not sure about what I want to play or how I want to play it, then I'm not fast enough.

[christianm77]

My problem isn't being able to play fast enough. It's being able to think fast enough. When I know what I want to play and how I want to play it, then I'm fast enough. When I'm not sure about what I want to play or how I want to play it, then I'm not fast enough.

Have you tried not thinking?

[ColinO]

I've thought about it.

I get what you are saying though. Playing without thinking requires a level of competence that I have not reached at this point...I think.

[christianm77]

I've thought about it.

I get what you are saying though. Playing without thinking requires a level of competence that I have not reached at this point...I think.

I can't play everything without thinking. You have to start somewhere - there must be something you can play without thinking.

[ColinO]

I can't play everything without thinking. You have to start somewhere - there must be something you can play without thinking.

This might be a different thread, and one that I would find interesting. Don't want to derail this one.

But sure. I can get through some simple stuff without much thought - think Blue Bossa or Satin Doll or Autumn Leaves as examples. Even something like Scrapple. So for stuff like that, I can play as fast as I want. In a tune where there are more changes to worry about, then it's harder to play fast. That was sort of my point in my first post about speed. It's not really playing fast that's hard, it's knowing the tune well enough that you don't have to think about it too much. It's not the physical part that prevents me, and maybe others, from playing fast - it's more the having to think too much about what you are doing. As soon as you start having to think too much, it's hard to play as fast as you might like.

[joaopaz]

I'm re-phrasing this topic for perspective purposes...

My initial reaction to your adulteration of my post was that it was

bordering rude - I can take it.
out of the box - I appreciate that!
devoid of content - so I had nothing of substance to comment.

...however I honestly believe, I do, that I may be missing something and that your point simply didn't came across; I'll be glad to reply in case you want to expand on your point of view with your own written words.

[joaopaz]

Changing instruments may be less important than changing picks or picking approaches. When I was young, I played very fast with a pick, and fairly fast with fingers (classical studies for fingers, lessons with Bill Leavitt for pick). As I aged and discovered flamenco, my fingerstyle speed improved, but I pushed too hard and developed focal dystonia in my right hand, taking away much of my speed and coordination. Years of therapy and lessons failed to fix it, and I very recently decided to compromise with hybrid picking. I found this a great way to return to fingerstyle methods, as well as a great way to regain my plectrum speed. In doing so, and being analytical, I discovered that the pick shape, size and material were far more important than I had ever thought, both for execution and tone, along with positioning the guitar in the most advantageous way for both hands, and paying attention to back and neck tension. Size of your instrument is also a factor; those with smaller bodies really fight with larger guitars. I feel that finding the right instrument to practice on is helpful, many of the improvements will transfer to other guitars fairly easily once you've gotten your coordination together.

One hint I got from Gustav Assis-Brasil's hybrid picking book: work on the right hand without using the left for a period each day so you can focus on that set of movements. 15-20 minutes of right-hand alone can really accelerate your progress. Combining alternate, economy and sweep picking styles over time is also recommended, giving you more tools.

Hi RonJazz

Here's 3 quotes (again) that really hit a chord with me.

I discovered that the pick shape, size and material were far more important than I had ever thought, both for execution and tone, along with positioning the guitar in the most advantageous way for both hands, and paying attention to back and neck tension.

I feel that finding the right instrument to practice on is helpful, many of the improvements will transfer to other guitars fairly easily once you've gotten your coordination together.

One hint I got from Gustav Assis-Brasil's hybrid picking book: work on the right hand without using the left for a period each day so you can focus on that set of m. 15-20 minutes of right-hand alone can really accelerate your progress. Combining alternate, economy and sweep picking styles over time is also recommended, giving you more tools.

Awsome, really.

The pick part I finally realized it a couple of months ago, when I decided to fine tune the Benson picking (the thread on this subject here in the forum is amazing). What I discovered - the hard way - is that the pick is also directly connected to the picking method. I used the Jazz III for a long time but it simply wouldn't work (personally) with Benson picking. On a side note Benson picking is working greatly for me in terms of tone, but I'm more clumsy now changing strings... so what's the trade? Should I keep it and keep tone or should I discard it and gain speed? So far I'm sticking with tone.

About the 2nd quote WOW now there's something I'm hearing from the first time!
Practice with one and same guitar and just then, afterwards, transfer the knowledge and/or acquired confidence to the other guitars ... is that what you're saying?

Quote Nr. 3: not exactly news for me, but at the same time I (almost) never did it... but if you think about it, that makes perfect sense! So thanks for the reminder!


In closing, thank you for your insight, Ron!

[AlsoRan]

I have spent several periods in the last ten years chasing speed. I also have a threshold that I hit. It also seems that every time I hit that threshold, I also ended up hurting a tendon somewhere.

Another thought was when I reached my highest speeds, if I did not actively maintain it, it would fade. For example, I could play the Major Scale using the CAGED positions, and at my fastest, I could play them at close to 150bpm (16th notes) relatively cleanly. I subsequently decided to learn arpeggios all over the neck with a study group. I required playing slowly, and weeks later, when I returned to chasing speed, I found that I stumbled with the Major Scale at 125 bpm.

So I learned how speed and chops must be maintained, at least for me.

[AlsoRan]

My approach to play fast was similar to this fellow in the video. I would break down movements and repeat them over and over. Then I would put it all together.

[joaopaz]

Perhaps your problem is working on speed. Work on accurate subdivision, relaxation and efficiency.

I say this as someone who an play pretty fast. I can do this cold without a warm up.

AS soon as I start thinking 'oh I'll play something fast' - I can't do it.

Christian,

If I'm reading your post correctly, you are saying that speed is a consequence of other types of work, and not something that you should work as a separate entity, is that it?

It makes a lot of sense.

The other part of your post also strikes a chord. Sometimes I may come up with a line, fast and clean, and amaze myself to what I just played... when something happens you know that:
a) it's phisically possible
b) the "answer" must reside in what you just did, or...
v) the "answer" must reside in what you didn't do!

Think about it and let me know... I always enjoy your posts around here

[joaopaz]

My problem isn't being able to play fast enough. It's being able to think fast enough. When I know what I want to play and how I want to play it, then I'm fast enough. When I'm not sure about what I want to play or how I want to play it, then I'm not fast enough.

Colin,
If you were asked to "resume your post in one single word" what would be your answer?
Hope it makes sense

Thanks, too!

[joaopaz]

I've thought about it.

I get what you are saying though. Playing without thinking requires a level of competence that I have not reached at this point...I think.

I would file this post, again, under...
"Speed is a consequence, and not a goal in itself"

Yay on nay, let me know

[joaopaz]

I can't play everything without thinking. You have to start somewhere - there must be something you can play without thinking.

I'm reading, if you want to expand more on this idea...!

[lawson-stone]

I think also there are two "kinds" of speed. One is speed playing something we are more or less memorizing. I've been learning some Jimmy Raney solos, and I usually can get those solos up to about 200-210 bpm.

But then there is speed improvising. That's something different because we are hearing music in our heads and trying to express it on the instrument. "Thought" is involved on some level, though certainly it is very different for different players.

I find my improvisation runs about a third slower than my ability to play a memorized piece or solo. But then that's progress because before I started learning these Jimmy Raney solos, I really was hard pressed to play past 120 bpm on any level, memorized or improvised.

[joaopaz]

This might be a different thread, and one that I would find interesting. Don't want to derail this one.

But sure. I can get through some simple stuff without much thought - think Blue Bossa or Satin Doll or Autumn Leaves as examples. Even something like Scrapple. So for stuff like that, I can play as fast as I want. In a tune where there are more changes to worry about, then it's harder to play fast. That was sort of my point in my first post about speed. It's not really playing fast that's hard, it's knowing the tune well enough that you don't have to think about it too much. It's not the physical part that prevents me, and maybe others, from playing fast - it's more the having to think too much about what you are doing. As soon as you start having to think too much, it's hard to play as fast as you might like.

This post triggered a huge blast from the past...

There was a time ("before jazz") when my technique was so-so and I was always composing, creating, recording... my guitar parts, although I didn't thought much about them, made a strong and constant impact on my peers. There was a lot I couldn't do - but at the same time, while doing my own stuff, I could be close to an heart-attack and be able to pulled them out without a blink.

Today I would be inclined to believe that I lost that to age ... but maybe the truth is elswhere!

[destinytot]

Interesting thread.

Speed is great, but one reason I've started playing thumb-style is that I'm more concerned with playing carefully - in the pocket.

[joaopaz]

I have spent several periods in the last ten years chasing speed. I also have a threshold that I hit. It also seems that every time I hit that threshold, I also ended up hurting a tendon somewhere.

Another thought was when I reached my highest speeds, if I did not actively maintain it, it would fade. For example, I could play the Major Scale using the CAGED positions, and at my fastest, I could play them at close to 150bpm (16th notes) relatively cleanly. I subsequently decided to learn arpeggios all over the neck with a study group. I required playing slowly, and weeks later, when I returned to chasing speed, I found that I stumbled with the Major Scale at 125 bpm.

So I learned how speed and chops must be maintained, at least for me.

AlsoRan,
Honestly, I could have written this.. I can relate to everything here - speeds and study subjects will vary, but in essence, over the last 10 years, I've been on a speed roller coaster, depending on how long was the period I kept practicing a given method/approach or how long was the period I kept away from doing it.

Only thing that comes to my mind, now, since we're both on the same page, is:
Could it be that you must stick with something for a given period of time, to fully acquire it?
Like, if you stay short you'll go back, relentlessly...
if you stay for the proper amount of time you may "proceed to the next level".

Much like in a videogame?
Thanks for sharing!

[christianm77]

Christian,

If I'm reading your post correctly, you are saying that speed is a consequence of other types of work, and not something that you should work as a separate entity, is that it?

Yes

It makes a lot of sense.

The other part of your post also strikes a chord. Sometimes I may come up with a line, fast and clean, and amaze myself to what I just played... when something happens you know that:
a) it's phisically possible
b) the "answer" must reside in what you just did, or...
v) the "answer" must reside in what you didn't do!

Think about it and let me know... I always enjoy your posts around here

Thanks. I hope it's some help! It's all a bit Zen.

The main mistake people make is thinking practice is in some way linear. It is not.

[christianm77]

I think also there are two "kinds" of speed. One is speed playing something we are more or less memorizing. I've been learning some Jimmy Raney solos, and I usually can get those solos up to about 200-210 bpm.

But then there is speed improvising. That's something different because we are hearing music in our heads and trying to express it on the instrument. "Thought" is involved on some level, though certainly it is very different for different players.

I find my improvisation runs about a third slower than my ability to play a memorized piece or solo. But then that's progress because before I started learning these Jimmy Raney solos, I really was hard pressed to play past 120 bpm on any level, memorized or improvised.

Of course. That's why speed is kind of 'meh' to me....

Adam Rogers says 'if you play something fast it'll be something you played before' (I paraphrase)

But that's easy for me to say, because I can do it. I would trade my chops for more swing and/or better ears, any day!

[ronjazz]

Joaopaz, to complete the thought about practicing on one guitar: I have too many guitars, but I have always had several around because I did pit and studio work, classical and flamenco work, jazz and pop, Brazilian and African, etc. I found long ago that practicing on a "main" guitar that was not necessarily the easiest to play, but was very comfortable otherwise, led to constant improvement. When I did have to use another guitar for a gig or session, I would practice on that instrument for a few hours the day before and the day of, switching from say, a classical guitar to an electric guitar with narrow nut and arched fingerboard could be a real problem unless one prepares for it.

Currently, for instance, in order to solidify my new hybrid technique, I am practicing daily on my Godin 7-string nylon Multiac, because it is very comfortable to sit or stand with, it has a very slightly crowned fingerboard, yet has the width of a classical and, of course, nylon string to work out the fingerstyle aspects. I worked out a bit with an electric the other day, and while it took a few minutes to get comfortable, I found that it was easier to play fast tempos. I think the analogy might be the baseball player warming up for his turn at the plate with weights on his bat. Anyway, I'm not working on speed, but it's coming anyway, since I am working on coordination and movement, and taking great care to avoid unnecessary tension buildup.

[joaopaz]

My approach to play fast was similar to this fellow in the video. I would break down movements and repeat them over and over. Then I would put it all together.

AlsoRan,

(I'm a violin teacher, that's what I do). There was a great violin master, called Ivan Galamian, Armenian/Iranian/American. He taught some of the most eminent violinists of our time. This video you posted falls very much into his teachings, how he practiced scales, and how he had his students practice their violin etudes... he'd stand by their side and would ask them, in mid of their performances, to apply rhythm A, B, etc.

There is also this worldy successful violin method: Suzuki. You may have heard about it. Shinichi Suzuki wasn't a virtuoso himself, but when asked to give lessons to a blind boy (he was still young himself, in Japan) he started to build a whole new approach. I've been teaching this for 20+ years and the impact on the young kids is amazing.... the point is, the first thing the young students learn is to play 16ths.... rhythms in 16ths!
When I started learning violin myself I was given a book that a single 8 bar exercise and perhaps some 40 pages with close to 2000 bowing variations for that same exercise... problem was the old way started with slooooow, highly controlled bowings, ina time when that's terrible to do. Suzuki went the other way around and started working with folk tunes, very simple material, with a few basic rhythms, and the very first one is 4x 16ths and 2x 8ths
The fact of the matter is that it's a lot easier for the young kids to relate with this....
...and perhaps that helps (I'm sure it does) demystifying speed for the early ages on. Kids grow with speed...

I've played with this concept in guitar, but not long enough, I must say.... I tried to follow proper guitar methods from trusty sources, instead.

To cut a long story short: I'm sure that rhythmic control of common rhythmic cells is part of the answer.

Thanks for sharing!