Speed on the Guitar

[henryrobinett]

For speed check out my playing on Fly With The Wind. It's on my SoundCloud page. Live playing. McCoy Tyner song. Pretty fast, but straight 8ths. An example of how I am comfortable playing fast straight. My right hand is pretty quick. Not a lot of legato in it, as I recall. I think it might still be a little melodic. That's always been the most important thing for me. And thank you BTW. If I can't hear a melody I try not to play. That's one of my problems I identified when I play fast. I have to have melodic context. If I can't hear music in it I can't play. But this day Melody seems a little overrated. Seriously. It's just not so much a now thing. Sounds corny to young ears.


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[henryrobinett]

Here's the clip from a live performance of Fly With The Wind. This is with the Capital Jazz Project, a group I played with for many years before it's demise. If it doesn't start at 3:40 the guitar solo begins at 4:00. I'm playing kind of fast. Trying to still play melodically. But it's a McCoy Tyner tune. Not swing time.

[Robertkoa]

Yeah !
That Tune has a badass groove !
I heard you go into McLaughlin Mode at the one point.
And you actually did the midtempo lines with some
Swing but within that Groove.

Playing with that Monster Keyboard Player must put some pressure on you.

I really like the Tune -Tyner/ Horace Silver Kind of and very Muscular Groove .

Somebody spent 2 hours and 43 minutes getting mic placement on that Piano( or has already done it 20 times lol ) .

Is that Keyboardist and Drummer your 'regular' group ?



And yes that was fast - those mid tempo parts you played with the chopped swing ( perfect for this Groove )- intentionally stiffer in a good way are really impressive - that is tough for even Jazz Guitarists I imagine...sometimes rigid swing is better.


I play it over IrealB sometimes - fusion swing.
You often can't swing lazy/ behind the beat on R&B or Fusion or with Latin Percussion..


I think a hair brighter Guitar Tone on the super speed stuff will even sound better but only listening on my Phone .
I will listen with Headphones tomorrow.







I really like that Soulful Simple Horn Lines with the
Modern Rhythm Section .

If you did a whole Album like this with varied moods and a little more *Comping - might it become popular ?
* Sounded like you did some cool comps but layed out mostly on chords..?

My Technique kills on this kind stuff because it stays in one Harmonic Region a long time...I just played on the long intro. Jamming to my phone with guitar unplugged lol. I don't just run scales though...and different rhythms and speeds.
I like Modulations but not every 2 bars...

Despite my new Chops though...and this Tyner Tune easier to Improv. than it seems - in front of a Crowd after the Monster/ Intro Solo by your Keyboard Player I could picture tensing up and choking at the beginning ...lol.

And yes - I am editing to keep you on your toes Henry - haha .

[henryrobinett]

Thank you! The pianist Joe Gilman has been my musical compatriot since the mid 80s. And yes he does pressure you. Lol. I tend to stay out of the way of a pianist, especially a good one, when comping. No need to clutter.

Better right hand than Tyner? I love Joe, but I'm never going to dis McCoy!

Those guys, Gilman and the drummer Rick Lotter, formed my group from the mid 80s for 10 years. Kick ass musicians. Then we formed this group, CJP, where I wasn't the leader.

But this was a concert we did McCoy Tyner music. I wrote out the chart, made the arrangement and recorded the concert. I had an assistant while I played. I brought all my gear, mics and placement. I have a remote recording rig I rarely use any more. Too much work! Lol. Thanks.


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[Robertkoa]

Maybe he doesn't but he is seriously bad ass..
The Tyner I listened to was with Coltrane and I don't remember much upper register stuff where Tyner does flourishes like the Intro section there.
I liked the Rhythms and voicings though...
I don't listen to much Jazz or much Music especially when writing...


Do you guys Compose ?
Tip- when you play an Original at a Club do not announce it as such.

[henryrobinett]

Well yeah. I released I Have Known Mountains last year. Joe Gilman's on that one too.


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[henryrobinett]

Huh? You keep editing you comments! I compose a lot. My CD mentioned above is all my own music save for one tune.


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[christianm77]

Chops, Henry :-)

[Robertkoa]

Chops, Henry :-)

Yeah .
I was really impressed a few months back when I checked his Playing - he's often really Melodic even on * Giant Steps etc.really pretty, Lyrical Stuff at will apparently even at high Tempos... cheater! ( non really lol ).
On the Tyner Tune - he's burning( not the Melodic Thing I mention).

I think it's on his CD* Zebra Crossing ..
Also his recorded Studio Tones are stellar ( Axe Fx - State of the Art Converters etc etc).
I first asked him a few questions about equipment a while back AxeFx etc. on another Forum and was later shocked at his Playing - cause we weren't discussing Music ..I didn't expect a World Class Player.

* I remember this Title because there's a Pic of a Zebra walking across a street like the Beatles walking across Abbey Road( I assume -) Album - ha- very neat trick...

[henryrobinett]

Yeah .
I was really impressed a few months back when I checked his Playing - he's often really Melodic even on * Giant Steps etc.really pretty, Lyrical Stuff at will apparently even at high Tempos... cheater! ( non really lol ).
On the Tyner Tune - he's burning( not the Melodic Thing I mention).

I think it's on his CD* Zebra Crossing ..
Also his recorded Studio Tones are stellar ( Axe Fx - State of the Art Converters etc etc).
I first asked him a few questions about equipment a while back AxeFx etc. on another Forum and was later shocked at his Playing - cause we weren't discussing Music ..I didn't expect a World Class Player.

Really? What forum was that? Thank you very much!!

[Robertkoa]

Henry- that was maybe ..AxeFx forum or a Recording
Forum...not sure..because that was a few years ago maybe..probably some Recording Forum..


Anyway..back to the Topic- here's some crazy speed playing Octaves from Benson- Youtube sent it to me to make me humble..
listen about 4 :30 and George goes bonkers on Blue Bossa with Octaves...sounds great ...then he adds the 4ths then goes a little out in some chords and intentionally smears the Time kind of futuristic almost...
The Octaves sound like it's barely possible for anyone to play them this fast -in perfect time of course.

I think speed is much cooler if it has SWG - speed with Groove...and fluency ..and not just jumping to Gear 5 from Gear 2 and neglecting the cruising speeds that can be nicer for the Listener.

***Speed does not automatically make you play better- IMO...that's the big surprise when you get it.

[henryrobinett]

It must have been gearslutz. Does that sound right? I use Metric Halo ULN-8 converters. I'd say they're a step above RME and Apogee.


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[Robertkoa]

Yes ..everyone Worships Protools but it really doesn't
sound great without help IMO at least RME or Apogee level Converters or some filtering etc...but I think those you use are like Mastering quality..there are a few others ..
With audio tape- ( and tube pres or Amps for Guitar) we never had to worry about harsh harmonics coming through...also the problem with early Modelers..people talk of matching this Amp or that Amp...but Axe Fx has more Natural even order Harmonics- that's the Key to it IMO.

[henryrobinett]

I'll have to listen to Blue Bossa Benson tomorrow. My wife's a hater. Lol.


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[princeplanet]

That clip was really cool Henry! I loved everything about it, the tune, the band, the sound and your playing, really top tier! I'd love to play in a band like that. But forgive me for not caring much for the McLaughlin style shred bits, (a bit gratuitous or something? ) I mean I love fast jazz soloing, but perhaps more when it's regular vocabulary (leaps and enclosures as well as chromaticism etc) or something...

Probably just me though, I went through a McLaughlin/Dimeola shred phase when I was young, but made a conscious decision to keep it out of my Jazz playing later. Certainly not saying that others shouldn't include it, no rules, right? I guess it's an extra bow, the peeps can take it or leave it, young listeners usually dig fast passages so it's not a bad thing to keep them listening. But the main narrative to your soloing was really so happening, that I actually felt the fast "spurts" were interrupting a beautiful thing!

And yeah, I know that you just put it up to illustrate a point, and that it's probably not your usual approach, and I really wasn't going to comment at all except that what I did like, I really liked, so just wanted to share that. Mid 60's style Post Bop, as I've been saying for years, is just so hip it can be explored for decades to come before the well runs dry. For me, it Jazz's true "Belle Epoch", which is why I can be very fussy with it . I like to hear it contemporized, sure, but 70's Fusion shred guitar sounds as out of place with it as, say, Sonny Shamrock, or Jimi Hendrix would.... to my ear. Many will disagree.

Anyway- .....

[christianm77]

Sonny Shamrock? Is this some acid rock/free jazz/Irish folk mashup that has so far escaped my attention?

[henryrobinett]

Well here's my issue: there's no context for guitar playing, that I knew of, in this context. How was I to play something like that going so fast? I wasn't thinking at all of McLaughlin. If anything I was thinking of George Adams and McCoy. Sax players "rip". That's what I was trying to emulate. Not McLaughlin. The problem is context. Even when I listen I hear George Adams ripping and doing fast atonal multi phonics. Guitarists never played with McCoy. Not doing this kind of stuff.

But when I recorded this, I wasn't doing almost ANY legato technique. No hammer ons or pull offs. Or rare. But I had great right hand alternate picking, which sounds like McLaughlin I guess when I rip.

And I love ripping as opposed to just playing hyper fast all the time.

Lol. Princeplanet - you say you loved everything about it. THEN you say you didn't like the fast bits. Lol.


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[AlsoRan]

Well here's my issue: there's no context for guitar playing, that I knew of, in this context. How was I to play something like that going so fast? I wasn't thinking at all of McLaughlin. If anything I was thinking of George Adams and McCoy. Sax players "rip". That's what I was trying to emulate. Not McLaughlin. The problem is context. Even when I listen I hear George Adams ripping and doing fast atonal multi phonics. Guitarists never played with McCoy. Not doing this kind of stuff.

But when I recorded this, I wasn't doing almost ANY legato technique. No hammer ons or pull offs. Or rare. But I had great right hand alternate picking, which sounds like McLaughlin I guess when I rip.

And I love ripping as opposed to just playing hyper fast all the time.

Lol. Princeplanet - you say you loved everything about it. THEN you say you didn't like the fast bits. Lol.


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Your last sentence just goes to show you can't please everybody all of the time.

All I can see is "whew," I don't think it's humanly possible to get much faster than that and still have the little individual notes get a chance to ring out.

Again, "whew." Thanks for the true illustration of speed. It must be nice to be able to throw in flurries like that. Many a good man (and woman) has probably broken themselves trying to gain that sort of technicality.

[henryrobinett]

Thank you AlsoRan! One of the hardest things for me early on was to learn how to have the speed in my pocket and only pull it out when it was required. As I said I got speed very early on. But for me, and I think a lot of other guitarists, that it's hard to temper it. Once I ramped up to it, I had to stay there. Early DiMeola and McLaughlin guys stayed at hyper speed. I think it's something in the nature of the balance of the hands. "OK! I'm playing FAST! FAST!" It takes acquiring a lot MORE technique to be able to just have it there and not use it without a ramp up.

I loved John McLaughlin in the 70s. Still do but I rarely listen to him anymore. Like I rarely listened to Holdsworth even though I greatly admired them both. I listened to Metheny mainly because I liked his writing. I loved his playing, but it was too easy for me to sound like him, or them. So I just listened to sax players and piano players and trumpet players.

So it's weird that I sound like McLaughlin. I mean I see or hear what he means, but my lines are so not like his. Whatever. It's a compliment to sound like him.

[princeplanet]

Sonny Shamrock? Is this some acid rock/free jazz/Irish folk mashup that has so far escaped my attention?

Hehe, predictive throws up some beauties some times....

[PMB]

Sonny Shamrock? Is this some acid rock/free jazz/Irish folk mashup that has so far escaped my attention?

Didn't he play in Derek Bailey's Irish Cream?

[princeplanet]

Didn't he play in Derek Bailey's Irish Cream?

Nah, it was with Gingerbread Baker's other band, the Fabulous Danny Boys.

[rpjazzguitar]

I'll take a shot at this, although I wish I could play faster.

And, these are things that work for me.

1. The guitar. I'm faster with a thin neck. The resistance of the strings makes a difference. I'd be faster if I used heavier strings. I don't because they hurt my joints. But, they do make a difference in the picking.

2. There's speed and there's fluency. For raw speed, say for a written-out part, the issue is finding the left hand fingering that permits repositioning the pick when I need to do that. Great economy pickers probably don't need to worry about this, but I do. So. sometimes I have to really think about how I'm going to finger/pick a passage to get it to tempo. I'm usually able to do it, but there are some things (like the opening notes of Chico Pinheiro's Tema Em Tres, which I can't get, even though I've tried for years). The left hand issues are hammers, pull-offs, and repositioning to a different fret, so that you get the notes you need on the same string (which make picking easier). There are passages I've tried 10 different ways before finding an approach that worked.

3. Fluency is the ability to figure out something good to play. You may know Passion Dance, which has a solo section that all F7sus. Even very experienced players burn unusually hot on that tune, apparently because they don't have to think about changes. If you can play Passion Dance at the speed you want, but not, say, Dolphin Dance, then the issue is fluency with changes. For that, I recommend making sure you can play scales and arps for the various scales and arps that you use, in 4 positions in 12 keys. Drill it. Then practice tunes focusing carefully on the material you practiced. I use IRealPro. I pick a tune, set it for 13 repeats, drop the key by a 4th every chorus and play in various positions. Benefits were immediate although I think I have plateaued a bit.

Caveat: there are as many ways to do this as there are musicians and there's always a guy whose playing you look up to who did it a different way. The OP seemed to ask for personal experience. This post is about my path only fwiw.

[Eric Wade]

The fastest way to build guitar picking speed is to use the speed bursts. It has helped me a lot. This is something playing a short repetition of a lick and pausing between repetitions - without using a metronome. Metronomes are good for timing and stamina, it won't necessarily help with speed. I was a kind of poky when it comes to guitar playing at the age of 20, but spending time on using the speed burst technique is a great advantage.

[henryrobinett]

Speed bursts are great. Metronome may be a personal thing. Maybe. But one of the many ingredients for the secret of speed is understanding rhythmic subdivisions extremely accurately. Sometimes "speed bursts" can temporarily subvert this because the accuracy is not as important. You're ripping sometimes a-rhythmically. But it's not really nailing speed or overall addressing the problem. My two.


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