Alternate Picking or Economy Picking?

[Jason Sioco]

I learned alternate picking first on the guitar, then months ago, I had a guitar teacher, who indoctrinated me to do economy picking, when I play scales on the guitar. I am not with that teacher anymore. Then this year 2017, I have another teacher, who tells me to do strict alternate picking, when I am playing scales.

I just need to know, what is the best picking technique for playing scales on the guitar, alternate picking or economy picking? I am trying to build speed and I am trying to figure out, which technique is the best.

I am interested in your thoughts. So I can move forward.

[Jason Sioco]

Another word for economy picking is directional picking. That was the word used, when I had the lessons.

[blille]

I've been using economy picking since the 90s so I obviously think it's amazing. I don't think about it and it just happens.

I've seen other people do alternate picking at blazing fast speeds. It looks crazy to me but it works for them. So I would encourage you to try economy picking but the important part might be just to practice one and stick to it

[Runepune]

Preferably, one should of course be able to use some of both They sound different. Alternate separates the notes very well. Economy/sweeps can give a more fluent, less percussive movement, and it's obviously good for arpeggios with one note per string.

That said, when practicing scales and scale patterns I exclusively practice alternate picking. It makes me free to go in any direction I want as the right hand is a motor I don't have to pay attention to....sort of. And I can accent notes wherever I want.

My advice would be to practice scales and repetitive moving scale patterns with alternate picking. Learn to sweep arpeggios and shapes that can be moved horizontally using the same picking pattern. Else, do what sounds and feels best.

This would be good for alternate practice:

[Thumpalumpacus]

I think it's good to have different approaches under one's fingers.

[vintagelove]

Both.

[ronjazz]

Both, and hybrid picking.

[FuseHead]

Way more pronounced if your using gain. Down picking, up picking and Alternate picking on a multi-note alternating run all sound different. Your attack on the note is a big part of the sound. I'd say down picking is the "standard" picking. Not sure why, but I up pick descending arps. Down pick ascending arps, and tend to alternate pick my scale runs and down pick when that particular attack seems in order or is desired.

I never was a super fast down picker. I mean some people can down pick as fast or faster than I can alternate pick. But most of those players can't alternate pick as fluid as I can.

Sooooo.... I'd say most guitar players form their own style with some combo of all picking styles.

Now this all assumes your using a pick. This gets exponentially more involved when finger picking which probably deserves it's own thread.

[rpjazzguitar]

all sound different.>>>

This is a key point. They don't sound exactly the same. Chuck Wayne (economy) had a floaty quality. Jimmy Bruno (also economy) is not floaty. Warren Nunes (alternate and pulloffs) sounded like a jackhammer, which I think would be hard or maybe impossible to duplicate with economy.

If you're only trying to play your own solos, it probably doesn't matter which way you do it.

But, if you're trying to play somebody else's written-out material, the limiting factor is often your right hand. Sometimes, it seems like only economy picking will allow you to solve the problem. But, like everything else in guitar, there's going to be a guy who does it the other way and sounds great.

[christianm77]

Neither :-) For me the up stroke is a necessary evil.

[m_d]

The truth is, neither is "best", great guitar players have been using both.
As to the specific problem of scales, it is technically impossible without adding pull-offs using strict "downward pick slanting" (a form of economy picking used players as diverse as Django, Yngwie and George, as Troy Grady points out). To solve that particular puzzle you either add upward pick slanting at the critical points (when you need to cross a string), or go full "crosspicking" as illustrated in the video below. Crosspicking allows for things that are impossible with other techniques.
For the cost of maybe a couple of guitar lessons, Troy's material, entertainment value aside, solved any problems I had with picking. It simply is the best resource on picking ever made. And Troy is a gentleman, as well as a scholar. As he explores everything, you can "pick" and choose what works best for you. But you could stay with DWPS forever. After all it worked for Django, Yngwie and George. In the end, a combination of techniques is probably ideal (and by the way, George's overall right-hand technique involves more than just picking).

[christianm77]

Unless you have to play country stuff, and then you are like cross picking is so flipping hard Waaaaaaaaaa.

Like I do. I can shred up and down bebop and Gypsy Jazz licks but ask me to alternate pick an open chord arpeggio pattern at tempo. No. Not happening.

In a jazz context alternate picking sounds pretty country to me. Not that I am for one minute suggesting that there is anything wrong with that.

Alternate picking + left hand legato. Now, that sounds more jazz....

[m_d]

I think it's just a matter of practice and habit. Last night I tried the DWPS + pull offs method and could absolutely not do it - because I hadn't used it in months. As I still follow a regimen of some basic things like scales and arpeggios I find Crosspicking to be quite satisfying - it eliminates any technical difficulty. Simple 1-3-5 arpeggios - easy-peasy on the piano - can be problematic on guitar, with CP they come out fluidly. For the left hand I'm using Andrew Green's fingering method (whereby any barring of two consecutive notes at the same fret on adjacent strings is avoided) and with those two things combined the result is very fluid. But you're right, I'm going to deliberately reincorporate some left-hand slurs in there eventually.

[christianm77]

That's hammer ons and pull offs are for surely? ;-)

[Fidelcaster]

I agree they sound different and so are both necessary tools of the craft. I mostly practice alternate picking, though, as economy comes more natural to me.

[christianm77]

Well I dunno if anything is 'necessary.' I think people fixate perhaps a little too much on technical box ticking. You need a technique that works for you, and you need to make it work musically.

Check this fella out:

Rather like Allan Holdsworth (IIRC) his technique is the development of his self professed lack of aptitude at right hand technique. Scofield said something similar.

Works for him I think - his ability to accent and phrase lines executed legato is pretty phenomenal.

[Robertkoa]

Preferably, one should of course be able to use some of both They sound different. Alternate separates the notes very well. Economy/sweeps can give a more fluent, less percussive movement, and it's obviously good for arpeggios with one note per string.

That said, when practicing scales and scale patterns I exclusively practice alternate picking. It makes me free to go in any direction I want as the right hand is a motor I don't have to pay attention to....sort of. And I can accent notes wherever I want.

My advice would be to practice scales and repetitive moving scale patterns with alternate picking. Learn to sweep arpeggios and shapes that can be moved horizontally using the same picking pattern. Else, do what sounds and feels best.

This would be good for alternate practice:

And also a good warning not to get your Guitar wet and shrink dry it in direct sunlight.

[Runepune]

And also a good warning not to get your Guitar wet and shrink dry it in direct sunlight.

Hah, I've actually done something like that once. Forgot a dreadnought outside by the pool somewhere in Texas. I discovered it the next day, in the texan sun...filled with half a gallon of water after a night of heavy rain It's still alive today, 20 years later

[princeplanet]

I prefer "Whatever-It-Takes" picking.... You wanna sound like a piano, or a horn? Very hard to get articulation nuances with piano attack, after all there's a mechanism in the way. But a horn player has a thousand ways to personalise their articulation, and it seems a waste if we don't explore several different ways to make our instrument "talk", too.

I'm reminded of this when I hear the masters, CC, Django, GB and above all, Wes. Horn players generally aren't impressed with most Jazz guitarist's articulation, but I've seen them go gaga over Wes, who probably is the antithesis to alternate picking ....

[christianm77]

Listen to Raney:

[christianm77]

I prefer "Whatever-It-Takes" picking.... You wanna sound like a piano, or a horn? Very hard to get articulation nuances with piano attack, after all there's a mechanism in the way. But a horn player has a thousand ways to personalise their articulation, and it seems a waste if we don't explore several different ways to make our instrument "talk", too.

I'm reminded of this when I hear the masters, CC, Django, GB and above all, Wes. Horn players generally aren't impressed with most Jazz guitarist's articulation, but I've seen them go gaga over Wes, who probably is the antithesis to alternate picking ....

Indeed! If you ever want to find something out about your instrument, talk to non-guitarists about guitar. Much more interesting.

Guitarists horn players (seem to) like:

Django
Grant Green
Wes
Lage Lund
Adam Rogers
Pat Metheny
Bill Frisell
Jimmy Raney
Kurt Rosenwinkel

Guitarists pianists like:

They don't. "What is that irritating noise going on when I'm trying to comp??"

[princeplanet]

[QUOTE=christianm77;775769
Guitarists pianists like:

They don't. "What is that irritating noise going on when I'm trying to comp??"[/QUOTE]

Ha!

[rpjazzguitar]

Good discussion. I was unaware of some of the options.

I think if I listed my favorite guitarists, it would turn out that only a few of them use the same picking methods.

On the subject of articulation, I think classic jazz guitar imitates piano, in a way. A lot of classic jazz players play single note lines with limited attention to variation in the way the notes are spoken. So, you don't hear much bending, vibrato, glissando, variation in intensity etc. You do hear accents. This is an observation about style, not a criticism I love that style.

Of course, there are exceptions. Django's ability to emote wouldn't be the same without the attention he paid to the way each note was spoken. His playing sounds like a romantic violin.

The great blues players show the contrast. BB King has a great vibrato, but also does those high stinging notes. Albert King is all about bending. Albert Collins was about overdrive and attack.

Pat Metheny strikes me as a jazz player who uses a lot of articulation. I guess the guys who came after the first generation of Charlie Christian descendants incorporated more artic.

[christianm77]

I dunno, Charlie Christian who started what we may call 'classic jazz guitar' was influenced principally by Lester Young.

(Earlier jazz players BTW were generally banjo players that converted after the Great Purge of 1928.)

Anyway, I think it's more technology. Strings go lighter, players got more legato.

Could you even get .11's in 1940?

That said, Django played .10s actually... Argentines though.... Not sure if you could get Argentines to work with an ES150? Anyone know what strings Charlie C used?

[rpjazzguitar]

[QUOTE=christianm77;786284]I dunno, Charlie Christian who started what we may call 'classic jazz guitar' was influenced principally by Lester Young.

(Earlier jazz players BTW were generally banjo players that converted after the Great Purge of 1928.)

Anyway, I think it's more technology. Strings go lighter, players got more legato.>>

The influence of technology is a good point.

Even when I was starting out in 64, generally, the shops didn't carry light strings. With the heavier gauges, on an archtop, it's going to be harder to get the notes to speak in unique ways -- and there isn't much sustain. So, I think of it as comparable to the control, or lack thereof, of trying to make a piano note speak expressively. (and, pianists do have something to say about this -- they do exert some control). Even now, when I hear a player play long lines of eighths without much variation from one note to another, I think piano.

But, you're quite right. Amplification was seen as a way to sound more like a horn. Not so great at first except compared to unamplified guitar. Christian's main advantage in that one respect was the thick and live quality of this tone. I think the advances in technology over the years allowed guitarists to get closer. Bends, glisses, sustain, vibrato, volume pedal effects, all helped. That said, I think guitar is unique among instruments used in jazz in the way it can impart individuality to a note. It's hard to get a percussive attack on a horn, but it's natural to a guitar. The pitch changes that are possible on guitar don't sound the same as on other instruments. Few instruments can mix chords and melody (kb, vibes, maybe harmonica to a limited degree?). I guess I'm less interested in sounding like a horn than some.