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I'll just add that if you can play fast, make sure your playing is rhythmically detailed and your lines are just not streams of unbroken triplets or 16ths.
I find that a lot of fast players play with little syncopation or rhythmic sophistication.
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06-24-2015 07:31 PM
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Giant Steps is cool. But because it's easier for you than say some Monk tunes or Rhythm Changes is exactly why you should abandon it for now. You need to get your more basic jazz phrasing happening. There's no reason why Rhythm Changes should be more difficult, except that it is -- because you haven't covered the basics of the bop language. My guess is it exposes you. Who am I? I'm just guessing. But because GS addresses different things -- it doesn't address swing and real phrasing. You gotta phrase with Rhythm Changes and play the correct sounding changes. GS you can kind of fumble through and get a pass, especially if you play it fast.
Originally Posted by stellarstar
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I have a confession. I find rhythm changes a little bit..... boring. I know, I feel really bad about that .
the thing is, I don't know that pop songs are the best "vehicles" for improvisation, as they say.
Thats why I have always preferred "jazz originals".
just a personal preference...
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Huh??
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If RC is boring you're doing it wrong.
OP, I'd need to hear you play to offer any real help.
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Well I've never really actually tried RC, just looked at it. The B section is a lot easier to get lost in I figured, while GS is pretty easy to hear and I can always tell where I'm at. I guess RC is the move. I might record a chorus of improv on Four On Six, which is the tune I'm most comfortable over soon Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Originally Posted by stellarstar
Gs is 4000 times harder than the b on a rc. It's just a cycle. Even simpler, each chord just moves up a fourth. Same as autumn leaves, attya, and half the other tunes I mentioned. Once you see that same movement in ten tunes, you start to see the big picture. It's cool to work on gs, I know I could use more time on it. but do yourself a favor, learn those basic standards and you will not only be a more versatile player, but it will really help in learning tunes that are more complex.
my two cents
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Just now saw this. Not looking to pick a fight here with you, or anyone else for that matter. Unfortunately, it seems like you are. Sorry . . but, I'm not biting tonight. You'll need to fish elsewhere. Originally Posted by vintagelove
But, if you bet on me being a terrible shredded, you'd loose that bet. Because, I'm not a shredder at all . . good or bad. I strongly dislike (detest) the concept of shredding, as I understand the term. But, maybe I'm misinterpretting the term? When I think of shredders, my mind automatically perceives exactly what I described. It's what I took away from the first *shredder* I ever heard . . and it was before I ever heard the term shredder. Can't think of the guy's name, but he was the guitar player in the band "Living Color". I assumed (and still do until someone can better define the term for me) all shredding was similar to what I heard from him. Just nonsensical rapid fire notes expressing nothing more than chromaticism at hyper speed with zero musicality and/or lyricism.
Gymnastics is a term used by many in music to describe exactly that, as I'm sure you would know. It's kinda like Mariah Carey self indulging in window breaking soprano scalar vocal runs, also referred to as gymnastics. Further to that, to me gymnastics on a fret board are anything but a compliment . . if it's lacking in musicality.
I didn't and wouldn't put down anyone who plays fast . . . if they play well while playing fast. Heck, I would put anyone down if they played shitty when they played fast. I just point out that I don't like players who play fast, just for the sake of showing that they can play fast. Benson, Martino, Bruno, Farlow . . . many others play very fast. But, they're the last people I'd ever refer to as shredders.
So, pull your panties out from the crack of your ass and don't break my balls due to your misinterpretations of my posts. Thank you!
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Originally Posted by Patrick2
Yes your misinterpreting the term.
Funny you mention him, I think his name is Vernon Ried, was on a show back in the day called studio jams. Basically it was a show that would have mostly jazz guys come on and play. He was on the show. I actually had to just go look it up. It was better than I remember. At times, he plays just like he did in the song you mentioned you didn't like, at other times he sounds like he fits in......
Anyway, your grouping an entire genre of playing to one player you didn't like. I think that speaks for itself. Here is a shredder who is pretty good. Maybe think of him next time.
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I guess you can check out some fast players and learn their lines. I think fast lines are more about rhythm and contour and then just getting a good resolution. I am also trying to work on some faster lines. My case is different from yours since I don't have particularly good technique.
If you haven't tried RC I recommend you do it's very cool and you'll find plenty of places to practice your fast stuff.
Now that you're thinking about it, that's half the battle.
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Firstly, I do appreciate you not reacting as harshly to the last sentence of my response to your post, as I was concerned that you might. That last comment about "panties" was harsher than it needed to be . . . but, just "a tad" harsher. ;-) Originally Posted by vintagelove
Yeah, Vernon Reid . . and the song (the only song I'd ever heard from Living Color . . and the only one I'd ever want to hear) was Cult of Personality. In the clip you showed, Vernon started out very much in the character of the song (or jam) that they were playing. The, he went pyro technique and into the "gymnastics". It really did get pretty riduculous, IMO. But, it's pretty easy to be intimidated into have to prove yourself when you're sitting next to Derek Trucks. DT is the epitomy of tasty musical playing . . . even if not being a jazzer. Similarly with Govan. I was delightfully impressed with his early comping and walking base lines . . . then when he went into the head . . I loved the solid body guitar ornamentation he put on it. That was nice . . very flavorful. His improve also started out great. But, then, it went south after 2 minutes or so into it. IMO . . what Reid and Govan did, when they were no longer able to prevent themselves from doing it . . was nonsensical and non musical shredding.
Here's an even worse example . . . at 30 seconds or so in;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=_vo6DE2_6bQ
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Well, dang, Charlie Parker wrote more tunes over rhythm changes than any other form after the blues. From "52nd Street Theme" to the "Flintsones" theme, you've got a world of great tunes written over rhythm changes. Sticking to guitar and popular song, here's Herb Ellis and Barney Kessel tearing up the theme from "The Flintstones." Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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The B section is the easy part. Originally Posted by stellarstar
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It's a very good idea to work on Rhythm Changes. In many ways it's the archetypal AABA tune. The changes on it are often cannibalised in various ways for other tunes. There are also 8 million ways to substitute it. Originally Posted by stellarstar
Most importantly, Rhythm Changes is not for my money (at least for the A section) a tune which works particularly well with scale based improvising. To play RC convincingly you are going to need to delve into some swing and bebop language, do some transcription, learn your history. For this reason it's harder than Giant Steps, although the harmony is much less demanding (naively, you can just play Bb material for the A section.)
I used to hate it when horn players called tunes like RC and Donna Lee on jams, because I was a modal improvisor. But I learned how to play them because they were getting called. Good thing too.
I learned a lot from getting roasted at jam sessions....
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The ultimate source of ideas :
They should do more of these, just get 10 or so jazz legends and have them blow 2 choruses each of some tune.
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Now ain't this interesting. Originally Posted by vintagelove
I like Guthrie. I think he is a excellent, toneful and tasty player in his own area - rock/fusion, before I even get into the chops. He's clearly checked out a lot of music, good for him.
I mean, he has a bit of language even (the way he pays the head is nice), but he biblically does not swing. He just hasn't put in the hours to be a good jazz player, and you can hear it as soon as he hits his second chorus. But the man can play.
But you know, you can't expect everyone to do everything. If I was being harsh I would say Guthrie is like an exemplar of guitar institute playing - has a big bag of guitar stuff he can do, but is focussed around chops rock. That's cool, it's his thing and few can touch him in that area. There are a few other guys like that - "now I do Gambale, now I do Benson, now I do Danny Gatton" etc...
If he concentrated his attention on jazz I have no doubt he'd be a excellent jazz guitarist.
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Ok so you sound like you have a few problems... you have a spatial or difficulty with Form and you have rhythmic problems with articulations. Can you lock in a pocket... feel a groove... actually make the groove be felt by others. You need enough technique to be able to sub divide... Almost every thing in jazz has a relationship to FORM, and in generally in a few at the same time.
Being able to play at the speed of jazz ... and live, not some worked out licks or transcribed whatever... is about a lot more than just being able to cover fast tempo complicated changes. If your having difficulty making the left hand work, get up to speed... you have some more work left to do.
I can shred... I generally think of that... as just being able to cover whatever's thrown in front of me or called out. Not what I know or have rehearsed... (anyone should be able to do that). Being able to burn on what I know... should be a given. Being able to burn on what you don't know is what makes you more of a jazz shredder... if such a thing exists.
There are two approaches to learning Jazz... they both work. One is to learn all the music. the tunes etc... the other approach is to learn and understand the organization behind the music. All the BS, theory, harmony etc, long list.
In the end when you learn the in the 2nd style... you also learn all the music and tunes... but you'll also be able to play what you don't know.
Post example of playing a few tunes.... I can generally hear or see within a few seconds what the physical problems are.
Play through Bolivia... there is a latin and swing section... and you can't play it fast enough. Remember it's not just getting the notes out... articulate and phrase within whatever groove you choose. I can help you through the tune if you need help etc... I'll even post example if that works better. Or how about Wes tune... "Movin Along is great groove, much more difficult to burn on... really need to be in the pocket.
Or a Blues... Sweet Georga Bright by Charles LLoyd... Joy Spring, Juicy Lucy,Have you Meet Miss Jones... the original three tonic Bridge... since you like GS. There's a cool Samba called Ginza Samba by Vince Guaraldi that can be played as fast as you want. Or pick a tune... I can musically break down any tune you want if you need any help...
And yea don'y play like Guthrie in his bop example... that's not what your after. He's killin on his rock shit... but not most jazz tunes.
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Personally, I thought the ability to sneak in some chicken pickin over Donna lee was the most intellectual part of the whole thing. Even though it is pretty clear he has worked it out in the past. It also was humorous, what's not to like???
Last edited by vintagelove; 06-29-2015 at 08:47 PM.
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If you are asking for an evaluation of Guthrie as a jazz guitarist there you go. But as a guitar player with a big bag and a sense of humour? Sure, why not. He can play Donna Lee if he likes, I'm just not going to accept it as an example of - hey look here's a shred guy who can 'do' jazz. Depends on your definition of 'doing jazz.' There be quite a few rock guys who check out Benson and Django because the feature in the pantheon of sick guitar players, for example. Any serious student of the instrument has to check them out. Originally Posted by vintagelove
If you want an example of a guy who can shred and play jazz, I put forward my friend Ant Law
Shred:
Jazz:
Mike Outram has his moments of shred too. I'm sure there are a few US examples.Last edited by christianm77; 06-29-2015 at 09:55 PM.
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