-
Hey all,
I've been playing over 15 years, since I was 11, but only seriously in the last four. Since I was 18 or so, I seem to have hit a wall at around 110bpm if playing 16th note runs across multiple strings. This is well under what I think is acceptable to my standards and of course to others' if I want to continue gigging playing jazz. On single string exercises, I top out at around 185bpm. With multiple string speed bursts I can play much faster than 120bpm of course, but nothing longer than a 2 octave run.
I practice every day, first slowly then gradually upping tempo, playing scales starting at 60bpm to warm up. Once I get to my max, I back way down, and bring it up until I hit the max again, and repeat one or two more times. Sometimes I go beyond the max or try speed bursts to make push the limit, but never for very long. I try to stay relaxed and playing cleanly at all times. I work solely on scales and alternate picking for 30 minutes or so a day, and use the rest of time on other things.
Here's a video... this is near my limit at 112bpm. What should I be doing differently?
-
02-23-2015 06:26 PM
-
That looks perfectly fine to me. I think it's very important to have a good rhythmic perception so you can distinguish every note very clearly from another. This is learned by studying vocabulary playing with others, along recordings and backing tracks/apps. I might think that's more important than the pure physical aspect. I am talking out of experience and practicing between 10 minutes - 2 hours a day on technique for several years. What seems to have helped most on my technique is playing actual music or actual phrases as opposed to exercises. Which I also do. My limit is around 126 for 16th notes. Wish it were higher
-
I think you need to record a video of the speed where you break down to see what the problem is. You also might want to pan out farther. It's hard to see tension in the shoulder at that close of a shot.
My guess is that you're not rotating your wrist (like turning a door knob) but are instead using your forearm, which gets tense on the string changes.
The thing that worked for me was switching to Benson picking. Although I can do stuff with standard grip at 16s around 150 bpm, it's not very reliable and feels very tense.
Me picking to show that I know of what I speak.:
-
It's interesting that you saying 'rotating your wrist (like turning a door knob)'... I've been going to Gypsy jazz jams for a while now, and the host guy, who's pretty technically accomplished player, we had a discussion about this... He said he never use the wrist muscles at all. His wrist is hanging loose, and all the action comes from the arm. When I said how about rotating your wrist, he said the Gypsy players never do that, and it's incorrect technique and only electric guitar players using it, which he doesn't advocate at all. Funny thing is, I just picked up a tenor banjo and started learning, and I can say I see where he's coming from. There is only one way to make it sound good, and it's using your arm, no rotating wrist, so I have to completely reevaluate my right hand technique. No more anchor pinky on the pickguard either. The Gypsy jazz guy won.
Originally Posted by ecj
-
thank you for the responses so far, all.
Here's another video that shows technique okay at 8th triplets (still very relaxed) at 120bpm, then falls apart at straight 16ths. Basically right hand wants to go into tremolo mode as if I were playing on one string, but can't cope with skipping strings and makes lots of mistakes (missing notes, pick getting loose and caught on strings, etc)
-
Here's another video of me playing to see where I break down. I feel comfortable and relaxed doing 8th note triplets at 120bpm, but I make all sorts of mistakes if I break into straight 16ths at that tempo. I miss strings, pick gets loose and caught on strings, etc.
My right hand seems to go into tremolo mode when I push it into higher speeds. Basically I use the technique I would if I was playing fast on a single string, but it can't cope with multiple strings and leads to the errors noted above.
-
Here's another video of me playing to see where I break down. I feel comfortable and relaxed doing 8th note triplets at 120bpm, but I make all sorts of mistakes if I break into straight 16ths at that tempo. I miss strings, pick gets loose and caught on strings, etc. Originally Posted by ecj
My right hand seems to go into tremolo mode when I push it into higher speeds. Basically I use the technique I would if I was playing fast on a single string, but it can't cope with multiple strings and leads to the errors noted above.
-
Might be a silly question, but is it possible to do benson picking without a pickguard? I'm finding this difficult on my semi-hallow with no pickguard
-
Yes... there might be other problems complicating your picking. Your use of up and down strokes... looks very awkward.
What is your standard reference for playing 8ths or 16th.... your down and up stroke of pick organization?
The next thing is the angles of the pick, it's a little difficult to see... do you flat pick or rotate the pick.
So you might also add some up and down to your picking... obviously not much but it will help create feel and help loosen up your wrist and hand.
And then there's your fingerings... they can get in the way of clean picking also...
I understand it's pretty boring... but the basic 1 2 3 4 etc.. finger patterns are really the best for just working on picking..
1 2 3 4 are the fingers and you just play chromatically on each string,
start in 3rd position, start on low E string....
G G# A A# then 5th string
C C# D D# then 4th string
F F# G G# then 3rd string
Bb B C C# then 2nd string and then 1st string... and back down
then move up one fret same exercise , up another fret and on and on
These are finger patterns.... you start on each string... then on 4 string groups
Each pattern is one exercise... 1 2 3 4 is one exercise , 1 3 4 2 is the next pattern.
So after you have the patterns together on single strings.... you move on to string groups. The same patterns now on 4 string groups.
So 1 2 3 4 again in 3rd position starting on low 6th string, 5th 4th and 3rd would be,
G on 6th string, C# on 5th, G on 4th and C# on 4th, then
C on 5th string, F# on 4th, C on 3rd and F on 2nd, then
F on 4th string, B on 3rd, E on 2nd and Bb on 1st... then back down and then move up a fret.
Here are all the basic patterns. There are more options, like reversing directions etc... but this will clean up your picking shapes...
1 2 3 4
1 3 4 2
1 4 2 3
2 3 4 1
2 4 1 3
2 1 3 4
3 4 1 2
3 1 2 4
3 2 4 1
4 1 2 3
4 2 3 1
4 3 1 2
-
From what I see, when string crossing you still only move the wrist. I did that for a long time, because sometimes 'play from the wrist' advice can be confusing. Bad, bad habit. You fatigue your right hand by moving just the wrist. When crossing strings you must move the forearm. If you ask or watch a properly trained classical guitar player(no pick, but doesn't really matter in this case) you would see that the angle of the wrist doesn't change when they string crossing, the forearm 'dragging' the wrist when go up or down. The wrist is completely loose in that position. Originally Posted by cowcow
Last edited by Hep To The Jive; 02-24-2015 at 12:24 PM.
-
@HTTJ: that is different from my understanding. No offense intendend, but please explain to me how Joscho Stephan ist NOT picking from the wrist here? (He is actually my favorite player and I think his right hand - actually all of his technique and musicality - is second to absolutely nobody in the world). I see the same with Lagrene, Rosenberg etc etc, but Joscho ist the cleanest (IMHO of course only)
to me the technique of the OP looks quite alright. He is picking from a calm wrist - yes, pick grip and pick angle and hand position and all that could be different but his technique looks like one of the viable alternatives that, I think, should be possible to make work. There are so many great players out there with such vastly different technique that there just is no universal recipe. Adjusting the arm position when crossing string is, however, certainly, a valid point.
-
Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
Yes, to me looks like he's anchoring his wrist to the stop bar area so his forearm isn't moving creating tough angles to pick at.
-
Joscho is a true monster. But - Gyspy style players use a number of techniques that are not necessarily the same as non-Gypsy style players. (sweep picking down strings, down picking when changing strings in either direction, etc). I think you have to pick your poison - do you want to use Gypsy picking, economy picking, alternate picking??? Originally Posted by FrankLearns
-
Some people can do anything anyway and it will work... typically if your on this forum... your not one of those people. There's nothing wrong with that... but you need to realize that as early as possible. And work on the physically most functional system of picking... (all your techniques), that works for you.
I dig the post above... experience time slower and you'll have better technique.
That may work... good luck... but generally technique problems are physical. Your not going to be able to perform anything at fast tempos with out having an organized system to perform the rhythmic patterns and fingerings.... unless you want to rehears or practice the rest of your life. The boring patterns mentioned above address specific picking patterns.
Being able to pick at fast tempos... means you can performs something at tempo without rehearsing.
Basically all medium and up jazz tunes are felt in 2, even most ballads. But the op is trying to improve his technique... not his feel. If you don't have good technique... feel is not going to happen.
The other details I noticed about your picking... way too much movement, the pick moves to far past the string with up and down attacks.Last edited by Reg; 02-24-2015 at 05:15 PM.
-
sure, no question about that - rest strokes, down sweep and up picking are the essence of the approach. I can't stop marvelling at the people who have it down. It just looks and sounds superior (IMHO of course). Of course, I agree with you that everybody has to find out for themselves what works and what doesn't. Practicing gypsy picking has definitely helped me a lot with everything else. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
-
Originally Posted by Richb
Interesting, I don't believe that I've heard that before, but I can understand the logic.
What do others think about this advice?
-
Nonsense Originally Posted by fumblefingers
-
I agree that it's the more efficient way of picking. it's very common when picking from low E to high E start on a downstroke and going the opposite way start on an upstroke. to do this your phrases have to consist of odd amount of picks such as 1, 3 or 5. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
-
It's just one way to pick. There are plenty of guys like Pat Martino who can play fast without setting up special picking patterns. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
Hell, even I can do 16s at 160-170 with alt picking in all kinds of different patterns.
Advice to the OP after watching the second video:
1) You are using the wrong motion with your wrist. You're anchoring your whole arm and using a motion that comes from just moving the joint of your wrist. This can work sometimes, but you'll end up tensing up really badly and just spazzing out on a single string to get it to work (I know, I used to pick this way).
The right way to do it is to use a motion like you are turning a door knob. Try doing that on a single string, and you'll probably quickly notice how easy it is to pick very quickly and very relaxed.
2) You have to have different motions for changing strings and picking on a single string. The changing motion comes from using your elbow joint (or for some people the shoulder). So, on one string you are just rotating your hand like opening a door knob, and then the elbow joint moves that picking apparatus to different strings.
3) Stop trying to play "continuously" at first. You need to do something much smaller and simpler, like a 4 note pattern, and get that up to speed before you're going to be able to just play scales endlessly at high speeds. You have to train your body how to move quickly while retaining control, and it's hard to retain control without breaks in what you're doing to reorganize your muscles.
Pick a simple 16th note pattern on a single string like 12421, where the last 1 is the first beat of the next bar, then sit the rest of that bar out. So, it looks like:
1 2 4 2 | 1 rest rest rest
1 2 4 2 | 1 rest rest rest
If that makes any sense. Not sure how to write it more coherently on the forum. The point is to give yourself a break between attempts.
Work on that on single strings with the door knob motion until you're really good at it. Then switch to something between two strings and start working on using the elbow to move your picking motion across strings.
-
That's pretty accurate IMO. Originally Posted by ecj
-
Maybe you should make a video to demonstrate your advice. Originally Posted by Richb
-
I think if you watch Gilbert's hand closely, you'll see that he uses the same kind of rotation motion that Al Di Meola uses and talks about. It's hard to see because they rest their palm on the bridge so that total extent of the rotation is constrained.
It looks very different than cow cow's motion, which is coming from a different motion of the wrist, kind of like what you'd do when using a hammer.
Gilbert doesn't move his arm much, at all, that's for sure. You'd have to have a playing position a lot like him to do it. If your arm is lower on the guitar like cow cow - and tons of jazz guitarists playing bigger guitars - I think it's harder to maintain the angle of the pick without using some arm motion.
-
And as long as we're sharing vids, here's someone picking the way I'm advocating.
And...he plays jazz:
-
Your example was a dude with a pink guitar playing harmonic minor scale patterns as fast as he could with so much distortion you can't even make out half the notes, and you're ragging on Pass' performance? Originally Posted by Richb
Yowza.
-
well i'm not slow, nor am i particularly fast, and i'm no expert either.
but, after seeing McLaughlin play up close a few times he seems to do what Richb describes with the wrist and arm. it should also be noted that he is an alternate picker, picks every note most of the time, and oh yeah - is very, very fast. (so, perhaps a good deal of mastering speed is a matter of consistent, unbroken, fiendish practice?)
i like what Reg posted about left/right hand coordination practice. I also liked what Richb said about tremelo practice, which is easy to overlook and is not always fun.Last edited by fumblefingers; 02-25-2015 at 02:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
Just Friends -- or keeping things simple
Today, 12:04 AM in Improvisation