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Yes. I did it by practising it. Needless to say you have to work on it systematically, because otherwise you won't learn it. Gypsy jazz school videos are good for explaining it. The biomechanics of the right hand are important. It's not enough to simply learn the pick strokes.
Originally Posted by Stu Foley
Now I try to play with .12 strings and I have to use .14s because they are too weak.
I have no idea whether this has improved by playing per se. I see little point in it beyond acoustic projection.
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02-11-2015 08:05 PM
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I should explain that when I say 'systematically', I mean did you practice drills solely for the purpose of developing rest stroke picking? Or did you just make a concerted effort to incorporate the technique when playing through an existing repertoire?
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Very much practice drills. I did a lot of scales and arpeggios, but pure right hand exercises will help loads of you can bear it.
It's the only way. I made a concerted effort on gigs and so on as well, bit the music probably suffered as a result for a while....
That said I was up and running pretty quick. Don't allow yourself to play any other way and you will start doing it.
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Good luck Marty. I guess it's one step backwards, two steps forward as you say.
Thanks Frank, I've been directed to the Horowitz book a couple of times, although I would wish to put the technique to use in a bebop context on an electric archtop.
Nice video Mr Lang.
Cheers Christian. A couple of top players, namely Frank Vignola and Corey Christiansen claim that RS picking is the key to their speed and not just a means of projection. I would think that the higher string provides a constant reference point from which to take off from.
It is difficult to convert though. All the lines that you practice to the point where you don't have to think about them are now suddenly played very slowly and deliberately and the results aren't pretty!
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Yeah I can see that. I could play as fast anyway TBH, but it's good to have a methodology. I used alternate picking before. I prefer the phrasing with this maybe. Originally Posted by Stu Foley
Just be patient as always with technique. It will come.
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If you want drills for rest-stroke picking, get your hands on Gypsy Picking by Michael Horowitz. He gives you a bunch of RH drills and patterns to learn in isolation, and then gives you examples from gypsy jazz that uses those patterns and drills.
It's a good book; if you're interested in rest-stroke picking, I'd pick it up.
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You only have to learn the sweeping technique, downwards and upwards. Gipsies only use it downwards.
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Well yeeeeeees, but - rest stroke picking feels very different from sweep picking when you do it right. When you are sweeping you glide across the strings while when you gypsy picking you are digging in more.
That said, there are many similarities between gypsy picking and Yngwie Malmsteen's right hand.
I reckon there's two elements to a picking approach - the picking pattern - where you go up and where you go donw, and the much less discussed issue of biomechanics - how you are making those strokes. In gypsy jazz, we have a good methodology for teaching this, which is helpful. Personally I found it much easier to learn from videos than books.
Important tips - don't hold the pick too tightly, and do use the weight of your arm, not muscle power to drive the downstroke. Basically you want to use as little effort as possible (as always with technique.)
Downward pickslanting - i.e. pointing the pick back on itself slightly so it's pointing at an angle helps a good deal too. Moving between strings becomes easier. Watch the Troy Grady Cracking the Code video on Yngwie's technique for more info.
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Oh when I play electric archtop at volume, there can be issues with string muting, not sure if I mentioned that. It's OK when you are playing a quiet gig. I change technique when I need to play more amped. Might just be me though, and perhaps this can be taken care of by the left hand. Originally Posted by Stu Foley
Anyone else have issues with this? I notice Birelli changes technique when he plays electric.
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Yes, when i play acoustic it is all gypsy technique. For electric i vary between alternate and rest stroke and also tend to keep the palm of the right hand closer to the bridge. Birelli says he is actually resting on the bridge for playing electric since he does not need to produce that much volume from the picking alone and it helps muting.
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sjl, I believe that with rest stroke picking, after a down stroke you come to rest on the higher (in pitch) string even if that is not the string to be played next. So you do economy/sweep pick within the rules of rest stroke picking but it is not synonymous with rest stroke picking.
My understanding of rest stroke picking is that you allow the higher (in pitch) string to halt the motion of the pick after a down stroke rather than stopping the pick yourself outside of the plain of the strings. In other words, the angle of attack is towards the body of the guitar rather than away from it.
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I started practicing the technique with my new used Cigano JG-10. I have also stopped resting my hand on the guitar. Difficult at first but I am starting to see progress and I am really digging the results. Not bad for an old dog!
Oh and my apologies for waking up this zombie thread.
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I don't think I get this, especially about 'higher than involved in the chord'. Is there a simpler way to say that or vid or something to illustrate (a picture being worth 1,000 words and all). Originally Posted by Marty Grass
Maybe this is unrelated, but as a young man back in the Age Of Steel I studied with Chuck Wayne, and before him Carl Barry. They talked about this stuff, especially Chuck. Carl is a great guy and fine player and a good teacher at the time, and I absolutely idolized Chuck back then.
Having said this, I didn't find the picking approach useful for swinging or playing quarter notes off the beat.
But please tell me more about the rest stroke, in simple terms...
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Just push the pick into the next string on the downstroke, and come out of the guitar on the upstroke. Originally Posted by fasstrack
George Van Eps described it as 'using the next string down as a pick stop.' which I always liked as an explanation.
It's actually a pretty good approximation to say Gypsy Jazz is all downstrokes, with consecutive downstrokes raked, with triplets handled DUD.
I reckon Charlie Christian used a very similar technique.Last edited by christianm77; 09-30-2016 at 12:56 PM.
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Oh yeah I did this vid (aimed at beginners, so I'm not trying to patronise you lol)
Last edited by christianm77; 09-30-2016 at 12:57 PM.
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OK. Thanks. Again, Chuck and Carl tried to make a convert out of me, but that was long ago. Originally Posted by christianm77
Don't know much about the Gypsy thing beyond Django himself, but the little I've heard I've dug. And it goes w/o saying I have no clue how they pick or anything else.
A lot of guitar players watch other players' hands and stuff. I don't. I like the notes and time myself. Everyone's hands are different anyway, so why even give a rat's tukas?
Just sayin'...
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Well the Django/Gypsy Jazz thing is all about acoustic projection and brutal speed and accuracy on certain licks. It's a traditional school of technique and pretty much all of the Manouche and Sinti guitarists play using this technique, taught from early childhood. Originally Posted by fasstrack
It's pretty strict and super standardised. Which is why I like to teach it.
There are prominent Django style players that don't use this technique or a variation of it - but AFAIK no Gypsy players.
Garry Potter
Robin Nolan
Andreas Oberg
Sebastien Giniaux uses a non standard grip.
As I understand it Chuck Wayne approach also goes upwards, which is a no-no in GJ circles haha.
Meanwhile, in happy go lucky American jazz land, you can do what you like ;-)
I think there is a lot to be said for playing as many downstrokes as possible, an even-ness of articulation. Also listening to your playing I strongly suspect you use rest strokes. Many people do without realising it apparently.
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Well, Christian, that was just what I needed. I've always enjoyed Gypsy jazz but never tried to play it. Now I'm learning some tunes in that style--beginning with "Swing 42"---and need to work on this. Originally Posted by christianm77
I noticed this morning while working on this that my pick often (after a downstroke) does not reach the higher adjacent string. So I don't need the "stop" as van Eps put. (I agree with you that that's a great way to put it: a pick stop.) So I set about making my pick reach the next string. I was playing with a small pick, and in pushing through to the next string, the side of my thumb deadened the one I had just picked! Have to change my grip (or go back to a larger pick.)
Took out Frank Vignola's "Dexterity" book and did some of those exercises. He suggests that each exercise be played with alternate picking and also with all downstrokes. All downstrokes sounds better, esp. for melodies and riffs. But I digress....
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Elsewhere today I heard the phrase:
"Down from the elbow, up from the wrist."
Meaning that downstrokes originate at (from?) the elbow, while upstrokes are a flick o' the wrist.
Is that a common saying among teachers of Gypsy jazz?
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Well, it is with me. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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I'll never forget the phrase but in trying to follow that advice I found it a bit difficult. (It's okay when I start out, but when I get going and stop thinking about, then take a peek, the downstrokes are from the wrist and the elbow ain't doin' nothin'.) Originally Posted by christianm77
The upstroke is not a problem. I tend to play mainly from the wrist, so that's fine, but the downstroke from the elbow is something that's going to take deliberate practice.
Jimmy Bruno picks from the elbow all the time. (At least, that's what he teaches in his book / DVD "The Art of Picking."
By golly, I'm going to send Frank Vignola an email and ask him if he uses that phrase, or is familiar with its use by others.
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I don't see that 'down elbow, up wrist' thing.
watch Joscho Stephans video with Troy Grady. To me Joscho is among the very best players and has super clean technique. I see picking from the wrist ... correct me if I'm wrong.
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I'd start with pure downstrokes. Use Arm Weight. Don't drive the strokes with your muscles, but let the arm fall and stay relaxed. Don't aim for projection in your playing, but relaxation. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Different ... err.... strokes. He follows a different school of technique... I think it's good to pick one school and follow thatJimmy Bruno picks from the elbow all the time. (At least, that's what he teaches in his book / DVD "The Art of Picking."
Do let me know what Vignola says of he replies!By golly, I'm going to send Frank Vignola an email and ask him if he uses that phrase, or is familiar with its use by others.
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You are wrong. ;-) Originally Posted by FrankLearns
I actually think those Joscho videos demonstrate the technique really clearly. Notice how the whole arm rotates slightly when he plays a downstroke. The wrist isn't actually moving much in relation to the arm - the whole arm is falling and twisting slightly.
That's why having a 'broken' angle in the wrist is important - it encourages the arm and hand to behave this way. If the arm and wrist were totally straight, you wouldn't get the rotation unless you made it happen.
The way I teach it, it is not an active muscular motion. You use gravity to actually play the downstroke. If you have the wrist angle right, that Joscho talks about in the longer Grady video, the arm will naturally rotate. (I'm aware I'm repeating myself, but this is very important.)
The muscles are only involved in the recovery of the stroke to reset it to go again, or in executing the upstroke, which is an extension of the downstroke motion using the wrist to snap back. (Tremolo is a different mechanic - I'll leave that for the moment.)
This is best understood at the early stages by focussing on rhythm guitar. It's the exact same motion.Last edited by christianm77; 12-02-2016 at 04:40 AM.
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