The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by West LA Jazz
    Does this guy have it right? Re: The Benson picking technique?
    Why, that's our own Phil Buckle, aka Philco. That's the OP in the vast (33 pages and counting) Benson picking thread.

    Phil does some things a bit differently now, as he detailed in a recent post on the Benson thread.

    Short answer, he's got it going on there, but he's continued to refine a few things.

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  3. #77

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    Aaaah! Good stuff!!!

    This video is good to see as I also use a medium/hard pick and struggled mightily to find a way to play lightly across the strings like I've heard Benson say he does.

    I actually hold the guitar pick at the same angle but in the opposite direction. I grip it with the thumb closest to the strings (with the pick between the thumb and index finger). My whole hand points down with the pick's edge at almost at a 90 degree angle. This way I can skim the strings without it getting stuck between strings. I have also had to learn to pick lightly.

    And then I used Conti's Precision Technique to help me get an almost 180 degree improvement on my picking. After a year, I have made humongous strides that I always heard in my head but couldn't execute. Conti's sweep picking technique is also a fantastic addition to a pickers arsenal.

    Before Conti, I took a class with a Jazz guitar great here in Los Angeles and he freaked out when he saw the way I held the pick and asked me to change.

    Ironically, Conti says over and over again in his videos to play and hold the pick the way it feels comfortable to you (the player). He also said to "run" the minute someone tries to make you fit a certain mold. I found Conti after taking the class with the jazz great and I haven't been back - it's just me a Bob Conti on my computer monitor and I haven't regretting it ONE bit!

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    This is a tough nut. To be clear, Benson picking is faster for me. (Among others.) There are those who play as fast, or faster, with a conventional grip (-or at least with a decidedly non-Bensonian grip.)

    Conti is very fast. If I were that fast, I wouldn't worry about going another way.

    But for me, the conventional grip produced inconsistent results. (Perhaps as Shakespeare almost said, "The fault lies not in the grips but in ourselves...")

    The Benson grip allows for more consistency and less wasted motion. There's a vast thread on this subject in the Player's section and several people who use this grip and are far better than I am will do their best to answer any questions you ask.
    Hmmmm... I thought I replied but somehow I cannot find my post. So after watching that video above I can safely say that whatever I was doing was not Benson picking. If I understand the mechanics correctly the pick travels to a large degree in it's own plane. I angled the pick in a similar way but not that extreme - along 11-5 o'clock line. But picking motion was perhaps along 9:30-3:30 line. So a substantial component was outside pick's plane. That is why I preferred round picks.
    In a way I thing that what Conti is doing is similar - he suggests that "writing" motion with your fingers so pick is moving in it's own plane - difference is (apart of mechanics of the movement) is that pick is angled down-ward - along say 1-7 o'clock line.
    I keep trying to get a grip - so to speak with Benson method but it seems that I do not have ability to comfortably and securely hold pick at the angle that is necessary - my lost joint on my thumb does not bend at all.

  5. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by woland
    I keep trying to get a grip - so to speak with Benson method but it seems that I do not have ability to comfortably and securely hold pick at the angle that is necessary - my lost joint on my thumb does not bend at all.
    I have a 'bendy' thumb (or as I call it, a banana thumb). That was always the easiest part of this for me. But not everyone has a thumb like that. It's not necessary. But you do need to press the pick against the index with the upper right tip of the thumb.

  6. #80

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    Hi Larry! I suffered an injury to my left hand playing baseball. So my dexterity on guitar is limited (as is my talent). Any suggestions as to how to approach fills and/or solos without having blazing speed? Thanks for taking the time to do this.
    Moe








    [–]LarryCarlton335[S] 2 points 20 hours ago
    we're actually just wrapping up a project here at TrueFire about Motifs - it's never about blazing speed - it's about telling the story.








  7. #81

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    The above post was copy / pasted from a Larry Carlton *Reddut* conversation. I am not the one who posted about the injured hand. But, when I read it, I though it might be useful here, give the current fervor for speed picking on this and other threads. Larry got it right . . IMO . . even though he obviously can deliver blazing speed when he calls upon himself to do so.
    Last edited by Patrick2; 10-22-2014 at 02:53 PM.

  8. #82

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    So . . . Larry doesn't play in the pocket? WOW!! Who knew?? Thanks for pointing that out to us Richb!! We should probably inform all of the hundreds of contractors he was paid handsomely by, to do their session work over more than 2 decades. They'll want to call him to get their money back. What a disappointment that will be to them, and to the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of people who have loved Larry's work on TV shows, movie scores, backing vocalists, contributions to artists such as Fagen and Becker, 20+ albums of his own music as a band leader, etc.. They'll all be absolutely devestated to learn that Larry doesn't play in the pocket. I gotta give you your props man . . being able to pick up on what others missed in Larry's inability to play in the pocket.

    Donald Fagen was unable to recognize that Larry doesn't play in the pocket. Quincy was unable to detect that Larry doesn't play in the pocket. Rhythm sections like Nathan East and Harvey Mason of Four Play weren't able to detect that Larry doesn't play in the pocket. Rhythm sections like Nes "stix" Hooper and Chris Kent of the Crusaders weren't able to detect that Larry doesn't play in the pocket. The leaders of those two bands, Joe Sample and Bob James (respectively) weren't able to detect that Larry doesn't play in the pocket. Jaco, was unable to detect that Larry doesn't play in the pocket. But, you were able to pick up on it. You sir, are a master at detecting when someone is or isn't in the pocket. I mean . . you must be. You point it out so quickly and so easily on virtually every guitar player . . other than, of course "Robben". Because, "Robben is THE guy for all of it."

    Haven't seen you around here for a while Rich. I've missed the "entertainment factor" you provide. Welcome back!!! I Can't wait for your next informative post alerting us to yet another true master who doesn't play in the pocket.

  9. #83

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    I gotta say that I kind of got it when Rich was all about Wes, Metheny and Benson. I get where he's coming from about pocket, because the guitar is an infamous instrument for not having perfect groove. Those three are pretty freakish in terms of note placement. I'd add in Joe Pass - although he could have off-nights - Django and Charlie Christian in my pantheon of guitarists with perfect time. Maybe Grant Green, too. Pat Martino in his own unique way.

    But the fixation on Robben Ford is just too much. I mean, I like Robben Ford. I dig him. But I've never heard Robben burn over Giant Steps or even rhythm changes. Never heard him play a great chord/melody over a standard. He's a great blues guitarist with some "jazzy" vocabulary. I don't get the hero worship here.

  10. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecj
    I gotta say that I kind of got it when Rich was all about Wes, Metheny and Benson. I get where he's coming from about pocket, because the guitar is an infamous instrument for not having perfect groove. Those three are pretty freakish in terms of note placement. I'd add in Joe Pass - although he could have off-nights - Django and Charlie Christian in my pantheon of guitarists with perfect time. Maybe Grant Green, too. Pat Martino in his own unique way.

    But the fixation on Robben Ford is just too much. I mean, I like Robben Ford. I dig him. But I've never heard Robben burn over Giant Steps or even rhythm changes. Never heard him play a great chord/melody over a standard. He's a great blues guitarist with some "jazzy" vocabulary. I don't get the hero worship here.
    Agreed. Rich would have more credibility if he would state that the players he singles out as not being in the pocket are not "always" in the pocket. But, he'd also be correct if he said all jazz guitar players are not always in the pocket. Rich states it as if these guys are never in the pocket. Heck man . . more often than not, only the drummer and *most of the time* the bassist along with the drummer are *always* in the pocket. They have to be. They state the pocket.

    There are a few very telling videos of Robben and Larry playing together where Robben goes way outside the pocket . . due to getting out of his comfort zone of blues. Whereas, Larry never loses the pocket groove during his improvs in those performances. That's just the way it is, man. Go way back to Larry's playing on tunes like Room 335, or Point It Up. The groove and pocket playing are almost robotic.

    I would venture a very bold statement; if we were to take any of the competent jazzers that Rich trashes due to not being in the pocket . . and had them play with a focus on never ever losing the pocket . . they more than likely never would. But when these guys are blowing . . sometimes they stray a bit. Then, the stop to breath and come right back in.

    Regarding guys like Benson and Martino . . they pick almost every note. Much easier to lay in the pocket when you're not slurring. Wes and Metheny?? Fagettaboudit!!!! Those guys could fart, cough and hiccup in a groove.

    Robben definitely got game. But, I too wonder about the fixation there.

  11. #85

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    Agreed. If you want to rag on Tal Farlow for losing the pocket playing Cherokee at 380, don't compare him to a guy jamming on an endless e-minor groove at 150.

  12. #86

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    Billy Bean had ferocious time...always in the pocket. From reading his biography, I understand he was often commenting to others (pretty good players) that they needed to work on their time. I think time was very important to him. Trio, duo, quartet...didn't matter...his time was unshakable.

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by coolvinny
    Billy Bean had ferocious time...always in the pocket. From reading his biography, I understand he was often commenting to others (pretty good players) that they needed to work on their time. I think time was very important to him. Trio, duo, quartet...didn't matter...his time was unshakable.
    Definitely. I always forget about him.

  14. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecj
    Agreed. If you want to rag on Tal Farlow for losing the pocket playing Cherokee at 380, don't compare him to a guy jamming on an endless e-minor groove at 150.
    Tal?? Out of the pocket?? Never!! It was always the rest of the band that was out of the pocket. ;-)

  15. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2
    Wes and Metheny?? Fagettaboudit!!!! Those guys could fart, cough and hiccup in a groove.

    .
    Metheny will be elated with this comment.

    I've heard him talk about his early days in an interview (somewhere on Youtube) about him playing with a drummer back in some city in the midwest (Kansas City?). Apparently this drummer who had great sense of time, complained about Metheny's sense of time and told him to work on it. Clearly he has.

    That being said, I prefer Scofield's sense of groove (note placement) and timing over Metheny's. And Pat is NO slouch. In Metheny's defense, Sco doesn't go deep into the uptempo altitudes as often as Metheny does. Metheny came up with his own elixir of grooves and makes mincemeat of those types of grooves.

    Just my 2 cents.

  16. #90

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    Yeah Billy Bean - for bop guitar his time feel is outstanding. Martino's time always knocks me out as well - both players have a real drive to their playing because of their groove.

    Gonna go see Metheny with Chris Potter in Sydney tonight - should be something.

  17. #91

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    Wes not in the pocket? Please.

  18. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richb
    Just because YOU cant hear Larry's pocket is weak, doesn't mean it aint. It just is weak. It's ok. Just nowhere near a Benson or Robben or Metheny or Bean or Martino. Not even close. And Wes' pocket wasnt as good as he aforementioned guys either. But he was stronger than Larry...

    No fixation on anyone for me btw...it's just good to notice stuff...And the drummers are certainly not all in the pocket. Not by a loooooooooooong shot.
    The best groove/time ever is Gadd, but there are other greats too:

    Purdie
    Ferrone
    H Mason
    S Jordan
    Keltner
    R Lawson
    Well Rich . . . unlike yourself, I spend all of my time listening to the music of players like Larry Carlton . . rather than trying to scrutinize whether or not they're perfectly in the pocket for every beat of every measure. And . . yes . . you do demonstrate a fixation on Robben . . . actually, it's almost an embarassingly groupie like fixation. I visualize you screaming and crying when he plays . . . just like all of those little girls were screaming and crying when The Beatles first performed at Shea Stadium in New York. Your constant display of a penchant for analyzing "the pocket" of players whose skills, talents, capabilities and performances are light years beyond anything you'll ever achieve are tiresome and boring.

    "The best groove/time ever is Steve Gadd" . . . . really??? By whose assessment other than your own would this be an accurate statement? When you make these kinds of foolish statements, you should at least include the obligatory *IMO* . . so that people here don't totally write you and your opinions off as nothing more than nonsense. Also, please don't tell too many people that "the best ever" was Gadd. They'll start hitting you with names like Max Roach, Elvin Jones, Tony Williams, Jimmy Cobb, Louie Bellson, Buddy Rich, Richard Bailey . . (WOW!! Richard Bailey. What a monster drummer!!), Bernie Purdie . . and that list could include quiet a few more. I guess by your expert assessment of "pocket" all of these guys were off?? lololol

    Get over yourself, man. And try to realize that very few if any here actually care about hearing your constant claims of . . "he doesn't play in the pocket" . . most especially when those claims are so ridiculous to include some of the best jazz guitar players ever.

  19. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlainJazz
    Wes not in the pocket? Please.
    That's what I meant when I said Richb is worth having around just for the entertainment value of it.

  20. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richb
    And Wes' pocket wasnt as good as he aforementioned guys either.
    Haha, Rich you are so full of shit. You should email Metheny and Benson and ask what they think of Wes' pocket. Both have described him as the greatest jazz guitar player of all time.

    When you say stuff like this it makes me wonder what you are listening to. It seems like you are more into jazz fusion with a straighter 8s time-feel than classic jazz.

  21. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2
    That's what I meant when I said Richb is worth having around just for the entertainment value of it.
    Now, now guys. Like the rest of us, Rich has an absolute right to his opinion.
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    And we can reserve the right to laugh hysterically while our drink of the day comes out of our noses and we get bruised from rolling on the floor.

  22. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2
    "The best groove/time ever is Steve Gadd" . . . . really??? By whose assessment other than your own would this be an accurate statement? When you make these kinds of foolish statements, you should at least include the obligatory *IMO* . . so that people here don't totally write you and your opinions off as nothing more than nonsense. Also, please don't tell too many people that "the best ever" was Gadd. They'll start hitting you with names like Max Roach, Elvin Jones, Tony Williams, Jimmy Cobb, Louie Bellson, Buddy Rich, Richard Bailey . . (WOW!! Richard Bailey. What a monster drummer!!), Bernie Purdie . . and that list could include quiet a few more. I guess by your expert assessment of "pocket" all of these guys were off?? lololol.
    Hey Patrick, not taking sides here, nor do I want a piece of this argument, but your post just reminded me... I one had a discussion with Louis Bellson, about 25 years ago. He told me one of his favorite young drummers was Steve Gadd....

  23. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkirk
    Hey Patrick, not taking sides here, nor do I want a piece of this argument, but your post just reminded me... I one had a discussion with Louis Bellson, about 25 years ago. He told me one of his favorite young drummers was Steve Gadd....
    OK?? I'm not sure what your point is here? Steve Gadd is one of my favorites too . . and perhaps among the greatest ever. How does that relate even in the slightest terms to Gadd being the best ever for playing in the pocket?? Also, note that Bellson very appropriately said that Gadd was "one of his favorite . . . . ". That's an opinion, not a statement of fact according to the world of Louie Bellson. He did not make such an asinine statement as Richb.

  24. #98

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    Much as I love Benson and Martino, I'd argue that Wes' solo below is the superior of the three if you're looking at groove, especially when he leaps into the octave section. They're all in the pocket in their own way, but I feel like Wes sits in with the drummer and bass better than the other two:






  25. #99

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    And just to remind us why guitar hero worship has its limits:


  26. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2
    OK?? I'm not sure what your point is here? Steve Gadd is one of my favorites too . . and perhaps among the greatest ever. How does that relate even in the slightest terms to Gadd being the best ever for playing in the pocket?? Also, note that Bellson very appropriately said that Gadd was "one of his favorite . . . . ". That's an opinion, not a statement of fact according to the world of Louie Bellson. He did not make such an asinine statement as Richb.
    sorry for interjecting an irrelevant comment into an internet argument. carry on...