-
How do you pro archtop players eliminate a tone once its been played?
For instance, playing mulitple single note lines in succession, without the previous note(s) continuing to sound.
This must be a very common issue among other beginners.
Assistance welcomed. Thanks in advance!
-
04-14-2014 06:12 PM
-
Not sure exactly what you mean and in what context but I'll give it a shot and explain what I do in some instances.
If playing single line scale type stuff on a single string the previous note should naturally disappear when moving on to the next note. However when crossing strings, then I lift the left hand finger off the previous note...which will stop it ringing. Avoid open strings but if needing to use one I gently touch the open string as I play the next note with either a a convienent left or right finger (either depending on the situation).
Arpeggios can be problematic when you hold the chord down and you don't want one note to ring into the next. Generally in this case, I fret one note after the other without holding the chord down and release the previous left finger as I move onto the next note. Or a more complex movement place the right hand finger back on the note as or just after I pluck the next. Both of these are kind of like staccato playing...but don't release or touch too soon so that it sounds staccato...
One thing beginners and not so beginners do is hold notes with the left hand longer than is necessary. It's natural but I think it's important to let the finger relax soon after it has completed it's mission. Not only does this relax the hands more but I think it helps with what you are asking about.
-
For me, in my practice, the over-arching issue is left and right and coordination.
Here's a seemingly tedious exercise my teacher designed and gave to me to practice, to really develop coordination between left and right hand: play everything legato--really aim and concentrate to leave no gaps in sound from one note to the other-as one finger is lifted, the next one smoothly takes its place to produce a continuous, legato sound. This may seem really tedious, there are 24 sets of exercises, but don't even think about going past the first 2 lines for the 1st month or so. With a metronome. Slowly.
This really helped me with tone, controlling silences, legato articulation. I mean, this will be really tedious, but it really does help.
#ing system (1-4) represents left hand; 0 = open string. It really exhausts the possibilities in any given 4 fret area. It was a fantastic exercise.
-
That's interesting NSJ! Those things really get around.
I was given a sheet with those exercises many years ago, in my first or second year of university music school. They supposedly were devised by Argentina Classical Guitar Master Manuel Lopez Ramos ...or at least that is the mythology in the classical circles
My copy has a bunch of hand written notes (supposedly written by Ramos himself...who knows!) on the many uses of these combinations, arpeggios, spider fingerings etc. I'll have to dig them out and post them if anyone is interested.Last edited by Scot Tremblay; 04-14-2014 at 08:52 PM.
-
not a pro...
Not sure exactly what you're dealing with but...
It's usually a combination of left and right hand muting techniques. Jazz has some peculiar things with arpeggios barred though. If they are arpeggiated as separate notes, you don't really hold the whole thing down at the same time like classical players. You kind of roll the finger to mute notes.
If you're talking about the right hand or picking hand , you can plant the fingers back on the strings to mute notes. It's the same thing with a pick really. You can mute notes with the fingers that hold the pick, the pick itself, the palm of your hand, or other fingers. The easiest thing to do really is to watch a teacher or somebody that can play what you're trying to play.
Also, lots of practice playing on a worst-case scenario type of guitar. A lot of solid body guitar are even hotter than an archtop and will definitely work your muting techniques.
BTW, lifting with the left hand finger doesn't mean taking the finger all the way off the string. You get a pull off.
A specific example would be helpful and probably get more responses.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 04-14-2014 at 09:33 PM.
-
Not professional archtop player but...For instance, playing mulitple single note lines in succession, without the previous note(s) continuing to sound.
That is when previous notes are picked on the other string? Then it does not matter if you play archtop or flattop, with a pick or fingerstyle - the issue is the same.
I mute mostly with the left hand. I do not remember I ever learnt to do it specially.
It looks like
1) if you go e.g. from 2nd string open to the 3rd stopped then your left hand finger that is stopping the the 3rd just very slightly bends to mute the 2nd at the moment it stops the 3rd.
Vice versa from 3rd open to 2nd stopped you will have to mute it with some finger of yourl left or right hand (in finger style )
2) if you go e.g. from 2nd string stopped to the 3rd stopped (with different fingers of course) - then 2nd string is muted by slightly deminishing the pressure - but not letting it go completely - then press back a bit. Fix the moment (actually it is the most important point in any technique issue - you should always fix the moment of attack or muting).
Vice vera - the same
3) from open 2nd to 3nd the open - usually I mute it slightly with my left hand finger
Vice versa - the same
I would recomend to avoid muting with right had while training whereever it is possible.
My classical teacher taught me once a very good point: it is easy for us to think that we play with the right hand, but we only pick with the right hand - yes it concerns tone quality, but not music. We play music with our left hand.
Imagine that with your left hand you play organ or accordeon where you just press the keys and let it go and that makes all the sounds and muting. Or imagiine a sax that is blown endlessly and you have to press and let go the buttons in time - this is your left hand.
Fix the moment of attack and muting becasue it is not fixed mechanically as with organ.
That thinking improves much coordination, because mostly the right hand goes in time naturally.Last edited by Jonah; 04-15-2014 at 04:53 AM.
-
It's all about the roll--fingers, pick, or hybrid style.
Can you post a specific example of where you're having trouble? Questions like this always fare better with a concrete example to attack.
And can we ban the word "fingerstyle" forever? (J/k)
-
Thanks all for the responses. Let's see if I can better articulate my issue.
Mine appears to be an issue of muting, which to this point has been non existent.
It wasn't until recently beginning to learn a new tune, How Insensitive, my ear immediately recognized successive melody notes continuing to ring out, in spite of having moved on to many notes after the fact.
The example I can give is in bar 5, on the F#o chord, held for a half note, and then followed by 6 quarter notes on the 5th string, 2 in the last half of bar 5, and 4 qtr notes in bar 6.
After the first melody note is strung, with no underlying chord, the following 5 quarter notes continue to ring out. Although each melody note is loud enough to be heard, defined, the carry over of each previous note results in an unwanted harmonic resonance beneath each melody note.
Is this an issue of muting techinique, or in my case, a lack of muting technique?
And no, this has been an issue for me all along...I've simply been too embarrassed to post a question, for it seems so basic...but hey, that's where I'm at. Square one.
I don't use a pick, as I prefer playing with my fingers, or strumming down strokes with my thumb.
thx again!
-
Are you playing the melody alone, or doing a chord melody thing?
-
Chord melody. However, per the lead sheet there's no chord note beneath those melody notes mentioned. I could be interpreting the sheet incorrectly, but that's how it's written. N/C or bass note after the 2nd beat of bar 5 until bar 7.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
here's a scan of the entire section:
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 04-15-2014 at 04:47 PM.
-
-
The melody here is on the 2nd string not on the 5th (we count them from the highest in pitch)...
anyway I cannot get what you mean since all the notes are played on the same string... they are muted naturally.
I can suggest only that there's something like overtone sounding because you coordinate incorretly (stop the string a little before you pick it).
Is it amplified or acoustic?
-
I would not teach the right hand like this guy on video
-
Acoustic. Yes, each note is naturally muted simply by playing one note following the next, but the previous and following notes remain ringing...it's like playing a piano arpeggio while keep the sustain pedal pressed...This archtop is very vibrant, and I'm using 14's to boot, but I've had the identical issue with any archtop I've owned...so perhaps it's due to playing with a lack of string muting. Originally Posted by Jonah
The noise is equivalent to the noise at the end of the scale played in the video above posted by NSJ. Thanks Navdeep.
Except I'm hearing that identical pronounced ringing of notes after each note, not simply the last.Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 04-15-2014 at 05:47 PM.
-
When I play that section, I have my thumb resting on the lowest four strings. That should prevent them from ringing while you play the notes on the second string.
Also, the chart says you can play a diminished chord under all of those notes. Use the diminished form in the F# dim and move it so that the highest note is the melody and it sounds nice.
-
Agreed. I used that video for the left hand muting. For me, note muting is a left hand issue. Originally Posted by Jonah
Other left hand issues-correct angle at which fingers come down on the fret, especially worrying about the pinky (finger 4 collapse), where the fingers should touch the fret (ie, right next to the fret).
also when playing fingers and multiple notes (polyphony) the ability to differentially articulate the notes on various strings instead of playing everything the same. Ie, playing the top note on strings 1 and 2 louder than, say, accompaniment (eg, guide tones on strings 5 and 4).
I would recommend tracking down some Martin Taylor teaching materials on playing solo guitar with the fingers. He really is the expert out there now.
RE-notes on same string, I can't recommend those 24 studies enough, and practicing them legato, which will force one to really stop one tone and start the next in a smooth and continuous manner.
-
Okay NSJ, I'll start there and see if that helps... thanks all! Originally Posted by NSJ
Of course I meant the melody on the 2nd string, not the 5th
-
It is hard for me to say without watchig...
I had very resonant plucked instruments, in lutes overtones sometimes are absolutely uncontrolable, but I never met this issue in guitars to that degree.
I tried on mine archtop now - it inot very vibrant, but I checked various possible mistakes and I could see that if I stopped the next note with my left hand a little faster than I picked it with the right hand - there's is a clear overtone left over to sound...
if it is so you should coordinate better both hands, and stop with the left hand with more accent, imagine piano playe - he pushes the key immediately - not begins pushing and keeps pushing and finishes pushhing with a sound.
Imagine it is your left hand that plays not right
-
OK, I see what you mean..... Measure 5, F#o chord followed by A-flat, A-nat., C...the A-flat sets the open low E off, the A-nat., the A and D strings. The open strings are responding to the overtones in the two notes you are playing in the melody.
That's a tough one because you need the left hand fingers for the melody so they aren't available for damping. As ColinO suggests, damping with the right thumb seems to be the best solution. I place the tip of my right thumb gently on the G/3rd and lay the top side of my thumb down over the D, A, E. It throws my right hand a little out of position but it works.
The other solution Colin points out, playing the dim7 under the melody notes eliminates the problem...
The palm muting shown in the video works well with a pick. For finger style, I don't find it allows as smooth of a hand right transition into position and out as the right thumb solution so I personally wouldn't use it in the situation we're looking at. But if one can make it work easily then there's another trick in the bag.Last edited by Scot Tremblay; 04-15-2014 at 06:37 PM.
-
Okay, but I don't get the palm muting when the thumb is in position over the 6 or 5th string to play bass lines. If I attempt to roll my palm in position over strings 1 and 2 my thumb is out of position to perform a down stroke at strings 5 and 6.
Ha, it's bad enough I've got to get my fingers in all the right positions of the fretboard swiftly enough to cover all the right strings, now I'm learning Iv'e got to silence multiple other strings at the same time...coming from piano, I've been spoiled!
-
not the palm, the thumb... Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
plant your right hand thumb on the 4th string (from the bottom) like you're going to play your bass note there. it's pretty easy to position your thumb so that the top of your thumb is touching the string above while planted on the 4th. with a slight adjustment you can mute the 6th as well.
moving to the six string from this position is no harder than moving your thumb from the 4th to 6th string. Don't overthink it.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 04-15-2014 at 10:25 PM.
-
That works for finger style very well. That's a big help..thanks. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Now, final question:
If the thumb is used as a down stroke to play chords on strings 4-1, and therefore no longer in position to mute strings 5, and/or, 6, what muting options does one have to mute those 2 strings?
It seems string 5 and 6, especially 6, always seem to want to resonate as I'm thumbing downward on strings 4-1.
-
It really is the long term goal to be muting the string above (5th string for this example) with the fretting hand. I'd be muting the 6th with my right hand. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
I usually tell students to aim for the tip of the finger to be on the "wood between the strings" (like almost between the 4th and 5th strings) - back of the finger kind of frets the note on 4 while the front of the finger mutes 5), but not to "worry" about it too much. It's a long-term goal. "The wood between the strings" is a huge oversimplification of a pretty nuanced thing that comes with a lot of practice, but that visualization can help. Eventually, it's muscle memory and you don't think about it. Your ears say "I don't want that sound" and either hand responds by muting it.
I really thought everything in Justin's video was pretty good. You can't really overthink it too much, because this will only come into long-term muscle memory with a lot of repetition. I was pleased that Justin agreed with my post re. increasing the string noise by turning things up "hotter". ;-) I actually almost mentioned the same thing he said about distortion but thought I would get howls from jazzers. But it really is the most helpful thing. Most of us probably worked these things out playing rock anyway. If you've primarily played acoustic it'd be a little harder.
The truth is, when you ask a player how they do muting (really a pretty complex thing - with both hands if you analyze it), they don't really know without stopping and analyzing what they're actually doing, because it's not a thought process. It's just kind of automatic and developed organically and unconsciously.
I've got two teenage drivers-in-training at my house, and they ask how I perform a certain maneuver. I don't really know... I just drive... Same thing with this... Don't think about it too hard. Crank the distortion and play a different style if you have to, but your ears will do most of the work. You'll be compelled to "fix the problem".Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 04-16-2014 at 07:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
Tour of Gibson Custom Shop
Today, 06:04 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos