Ebony VS Rosewood VS Bone VS TOM Archtop Bridge Selection

[itsall4you]

Hi all

I currently have a TOM bridge on my archtop and I'm figuring that's is all my 'twang' is coming from. (this is only really noticeable acoustically but I practice at low volumes and I want to practice with a nice sound)

As I understand it, TOM is by far the easiest to intonate but adds a 'snap' to the sound that I really don't like.

Ebony is warmer and Rosewood is warmer still..

Then I came across the Bone saddle bridge at stewmac! Just to make things harder for me to decide.. (STEWMAC.COM : Archtop Bridge with Bone Saddle)

How hard are the Wooden bridges (and the bone one) to intonate? Is it really that hard to get a perfect intonation? (I have extremely sensitive ears.. Maybe I should give up guitar!!)
And which one's have you used and prefer?

Thanks for reading the long post hope you have a great day

[Tom Karol]

I used to have a '66 L4C (alas, not anymore). When I bought it (1972), it had a standard pre-intonated rosewood bridge. At the shop, there was an old craftsman (sadly both the store and the man have since passed on) who made me a bone bridge saddle. Here's how it was done:
He lent me a TOM saddle;
He said to choose the strings I would always use;
He told me to adjust the TOM saddle to my idea of perfection;
Then he carved a saddle out of bone to exactly match the TOM; it wsn't warm, but it was exceptionally clear, and it looked stunning. He even carved my initials on the bottom of the saddle - I wonder if the current owner knows that!

[billkath]

Originally Posted by Tom Karol

I used to have a '66 L4C (alas, not anymore). When I bought it (1972), it had a standard pre-intonated rosewood bridge. At the shop, there was an old craftsman (sadly both the store and the man have since passed on) who made me a bone bridge saddle. Here's how it was done:
He lent me a TOM saddle;
He said to choose the strings I would always use;
He told me to adjust the TOM saddle to my idea of perfection;
Then he carved a saddle out of bone to exactly match the TOM; it wsn't warm, but it was exceptionally clear, and it looked stunning. He even carved my initials on the bottom of the saddle - I wonder if the current owner knows that!

That is SO Classy!!

You remind me of a D'Angelico I worked on maybe 30 years ago that had an ivory (!) saddle. There was a SS# engraved on the bottom.

As for making a wooden or bone bridge with the precise compensation that you want, this is not a big deal at all for a reasonably good luthier. It is even a decent home-brew project if you are remotely handy in that sort of way.

As for relative sound, there are indeed the broad general differences in materials that you mention, but some guitars may not respond as you might expect. Some are significantly twangy-er with ebony than with an ABR-1 type T-O-M, odd, but it happens.

It is fast and easy to put a rosewood saddle on there without going too crazy on compensation adjustment. Then if you like the sound, you can worry about the string-per-string compensation.

[itsall4you]

Thank you very much for the replies

chrisp, would the process that Tom Karol mentioned be similar to what you might do to compensate?

I do consider myself quite handy but I can't really think of a way to make one myself. Would you just have a big blank and carve out to shape the bridge

Is the warmest of all the Rosewood? (Well, in theory? )

Your mention of Rosewood 'saddles' just gave me a thought of changing the saddles on the TOM to a wooden one.. Is that possible or out of the question

Again, thank you so much for your time

[SamBooka]

I am going through this right now. My ES 165 came with a TOM and I put an Ebony on there. Much happier with the tone. An added bonus is I dont get the strings between the bridge and TP resonating.

Using a stock bridge from StewMac the intonation was close enough for me. I did have to shape the bridge to match the fb radius and the base to fit the arch of the top.

I quickly tried just replacing the TOM with a rosewood bridge (using the original TOM base) and it sounded good too but not a HUGE difference between that and ebony (maybe on a better acoustic instrument you would notice the difference). For $2 more I will stick with Ebony as it is classier.

The original TOM and base go in the case for safe keeping.. buhbye!

[itsall4you]

You do use a wound G string right ?

[SamBooka]

Yeah.. by choice.
But you have a good point. the StewMac bridges are intonated for wound Gs.

>>>chrisp, would the process that Tom Karol mentioned be similar to what you might do to compensate?

I think using a t-o-m to set up your compensation, then using this as a template for a wooden bridge is fine.

But after you do this a pile-o-times it is clear that most sets of strings follow a very predictable pattern. So I just make the bridge, then tweak slightly as needed.

>>I do consider myself quite handy but I can't really think of a way to make one myself. Would you just have a big blank and carve out to shape the bridge

I have always used fingerboard blank stock, so you don't need the table saw. It goes pretty fast. Faster than making a good nut anyway. You cut out the shape on the FB blank. Then drill the holes. Then cut the saddle steps, or a curved dip for the B if that's how you want to do it. Then try it and tweak.

>>>Is the warmest of all the Rosewood? (Well, in theory? )

In principle yes. But the exceptions are many. I have a maple topped guitar that sounds best (warmest of all) with a copper bridge. Weird.

I had an Epi Byrdland that got far too twangy with an ebony bridge, so I went back to the ABR-1 t-o-m and used nylon saddles.

>>>Your mention of Rosewood 'saddles' just gave me a thought of changing the saddles on the TOM to a wooden one.. Is that possible or out of the question

Wooden saddles would be pain to make. I'd go to a rosewood bridge. Or go vintage and try nylon saddles. But leave the low E as a metal saddle so the bridge gets grounded (assuming you have an archtop that is grounded via the tailpiece.)

On the Stewmac "archtop" bridges. These are the old Guild-type archtop bridges. They are overcompensated in that the step distance between the strings is too much for any set I have ever seen. The B and low E tend to end up flat.

Of course thousands of these are on working Guilds as we speak. But this is a testament to the forgiveness of our (allegedly sensitive) ears, not to the soundness of the bridge layout.

Look at the cheapo rosewood bridges on may MIK archtops (Gretsch G-100, Epi Emperor Regent) and you'll see a very good staring compensation.

All of this is in my opinion. Others may have helpful and significantly different views.

[billkath]

Originally Posted by chrisp

>>>
Wooden saddles would be pain to make. I'd go to a rosewood bridge. Or go vintage and try nylon saddles. But leave the low E as a metal saddle so the bridge gets grounded (assuming you have an archtop that is grounded via the tailpiece.)

One thing I've always wondered about-how do they ground the strings on archtops with wooden tailpieces? Do they have a metal plate in them where the strings go through the wood? I've often seen beautiful inlaid tailpieces for archtops, but wondered about how they'd pick up the string ground.

Some ostensibly wooden tailpieces are stealth metal ones. Eastmans, and Benedetto "Pro Series" come to mind. (The fancy-$$$ Benedettos have the normal ebony tailpiece with the strap-round-the-peg mount, but the pro series have a metal tailpiece with an ebony cover.)

If you have a wooden bridge and a decently shielded humbucking PU, you can get away with non-grounded strings. This is how many wooden-tailpiece archtops are set up.

If you take a metal tailpiece guitar with a metal bridge, but run the old Gibson nylon saddles, sometimes you can get slight static if your hand touches the ungrounded bridge. Thus my opinion to use a metal saddle for the low E.

[SamBooka]

I asked Bob Benedetto about that last year. He said that his pickups are sooooo well shielded that he doesnt need a string ground. If he is building a guitar with something other than his pickups (or someone insists on a string ground) he will add a brass strip in the TP and ground that.

[itsall4you]

Hi thanks so much for the replies.

I see, wooden saddles are a bad idea

Hm just to bring up a point, I use Benedetto A-6 on one of my archtops

And I don't think they are better shielded than anything else.

Then again, they might be very well shielded but it is the electronics that pick up the noise. Especially in archtops with switches all the way up the top lefthand corner the wires end up quite long becoming an 'aerial' to pick up noise.

Benedettos normally have a simpler configuration of one pick up so that might help.

Hm,, so my point is I wouldn't just believe what Benedetto says because it's not just the pick ups that pick up the hum.

I rather think there was some irony intended in S. Booka's reportage regarding the amazing shielding in the Benedetto PU.

Yes, I also see the A6 as shielded much as any Gibson type humbucker. The B6 has shielding built into the cast case, so is similarly well shielded.

I agree very much that there are many sources of hum out side the PU's via the passive wiring inside the guitar.

[SamBooka]

No Irony at all.
That is what the man said.
I have never tried his pickup so I cant say either way.

Well, I guess you can not blame a guy for enthusiasm for his brand name PU's.

On the other hand, with all the absurd guitar mythology that flies around, maybe some basis for a claim can be helpful sometimes.

In any case, the guitars sound just fine with ungrounded strings. It is just not easy (or in my opinion, reasonable) to attribute this to some unspecified superior PU shielding in the Benedetto/Duncan PU's, or to suggest that other PU's are inferior and in need of a compensating string ground.

[SamBooka]

I have something to say ... but I am not going to HJ this post

[itsall4you]

Feel free to. I'd be interested to hear your opinion

[billkath]

Originally Posted by chrisp

Some ostensibly wooden tailpieces are stealth metal ones. Eastmans, and Benedetto "Pro Series" come to mind. (The fancy-$$$ Benedettos have the normal ebony tailpiece with the strap-round-the-peg mount, but the pro series have a metal tailpiece with an ebony cover.)

If you have a wooden bridge and a decently shielded humbucking PU, you can get away with non-grounded strings. This is how many wooden-tailpiece archtops are set up.

If you take a metal tailpiece guitar with a metal bridge, but run the old Gibson nylon saddles, sometimes you can get slight static if your hand touches the ungrounded bridge. Thus my opinion to use a metal saddle for the low E.

Thanks a lot.I know some pickup manufacturers ask you to run a ground wire through the string end balls if you're using wooden tailpieces, and I was thinking to myself how inefficient a contact that would be. I've seen other archtops with wooden tailpieces and TOM's on wooden bases that have a ground wire running through the F-Hole to a loop around the TOM studs.. Looked a little messy to me, but did the job.

[itsall4you]

Actually, I don't think that would be all that inefficient because guitars typically need very little grounding. A small contact would do just fine IMO. You could have a ground wire out through the strap pin hole and just go through all the balls when you change strings... Probably isn't a secure connection but I can imagine it working..

[billkath]

The worry would be it not being a constant connection if your guitar amp developed a chassis ground fault and you were singing into a mic. Or if the console developed a chassis ground fault, and you knock your guitar of a mic stand. Guitar string grounds are not just for noise suppression- they are also a way of making all metal bits on a guitar of equal electrical potential. No difference in electrical potential-no flow of electrons-no shock.

[ThomasCray]

Great thread! Two recent concerns as I just put a Benedetto S6 on a newly built archtop guitar (with an all wood bridge and tailpiece). I think my next steps are to address string grounding and to get the top of a TOM and get perfect intonation going and pass it off to my luthier to make me a custom wood top that takes into consideration:

String Gauge
Scale (mine is a custom shorter scale guitar)
Fret height
Nut height

and, last but not least, my playing style.

Once the TOM is perfect I should be able to dial in a wooden bridge.

[oldane]

Check out this guy, if you don't want to cut a bridge saddle yourself. He makes bridges customized to individual instruments:

Archtop.ie - Luthier John Moriarty - Customisable Compensated Bridge for Archtop Guitar

If you try it yourself, get an blank for flattop bridges. It has just about the right thickness, whick will only need little sanding down. One blank should be enough for your liftime. Such blanks are avalable from (among others):

Luthiers Mercantile International, Inc. Guitar Builder Wood and Supplies

If you need to fit an archtop bridge base to the contour of your guitar, you'll want something like this jig:

STEWMAC.COM : Archtop Bridge Fitting Jig

[SamBooka]

Oh.. and an update to my previous comments about grounding. Went to the montreal guitar show again this year and looking how many luthiers ground the strings on guitars with wooden TPs and magnetic pickups. I found one.. everyone else said the same thing as Bob (dont need it if you do it right).

[Elias Graves]

Just finished installing an ebony bridge with bone saddll on my Godin. Still don't have the base fit quite perfectly, but what a difference in sound. The guitar is noticeably louder and clearer sounding now.
Not sure that bright is the correct word, but the definition is better now.
I'm very pleased with the upgrade.

EG

[kenbennett]

Graphtech is the answer. Well, they sound better than metal.

Graphtech Replacement Saddles for Tune-o-matic Bridge

[kris]

I think the best way is to buy good sounding guitar for good money.
We jazz guitarists spend too much time looking for exelent sound.
I have two bridges...one ebone a one ABR-1 with rosewood base.
I like two of them but I think ebony is more acurate for my jazz guitar.
Softer sound.
Good wood this is a key.

[pingu]

The harder the material the harder the sound
Bone is hard ..........

[pingu]

I think that the higher guage strings you use the more intune your instrument ends up being ....... and staying in tune ....
don't know why

I used to have ALL sorts of problems tuning guitars and playing in tune
I could never get all my shapes properly in tune

till I went from 10s to 13s ALL these problems went away
such a bloody relief

[jazzbow]

Originally Posted by pingu

I think that the higher guage strings you use the more intune your instrument ends up being ....... and staying in tune ....
don't know why

I used to have ALL sorts of problems tuning guitars and playing in tune
I could never get all my shapes properly in tune

till I went from 10s to 13s ALL these problems went away
such a bloody relief

+1 on that. The higher tension makes for better neck relief. I personally don't go lighter than 11's, I wince when customers ask for 9's....

As for intonating wooden/bone saddles I intonate pre-shaped, wound G bridges on the 19th fret harmonic versus the 19th fretted note with the 2nd and 5th strings and then the rest fall into place. As for the best sounding material I would plumb for bone (bone for tone). Actually, why not go for ebony as well and then swap 'til you get the sound you want