Do I Need A Hollow/Semi?

[Scrybe]

Right, I'm hoping you'll all litter this thread with highly persuasive reasons to tip me over the balance and get me saving for my first ever hollow or semi-hollow guitar.

Been learning jazz for a few months now (since January or thereabouts). I rehearse with a quartet weekly, play at a weekly jam night, and sit in at a few spots around town, playing one or two tunes at those nights, sometimes more. The jam night I play the three sets.

I have a coterie of acoustic and electric axes, but have been using my Spear Tomcat as my jazz solidbody, and my Ibanez walnut electro-acoustic (EW987234928742452498042502459544, or whatever the model number actually is) for the quieter nights I sit in at. The Ibanez has a really nice dark tone to it given how cheap it is, but it still has that acoustic and piezo pup sound that I don't like doing pickwork on, tbh.

Besides.....I love hollow-body tone and also semi tone, too. Will probably get one of each, over time. But for now...
I'm looking to spend £300-700. I want a guitar that will last as a gigger for local bars, coffee spots, etc. (I don't sell my guitars). If I upgrade, it will be in a few years (5-10) and I'd be looking at adding a Benedetto or Sadowsky to my collection (and selling a kidney to fund it no doubt...).

So, do I go hollow? Or semi? I have to save for all of this, so I'll have months to test various guitars out, but am gonna be travelling a bit in the next 6 months, so will try out guitars at various stores while I'm doing that - having a list of stuff to try in advance would be awesome.

I'm thinking along the lines of the Godin Kingpin/Kingpin II, and the Ibanez Artcore range. I'm also really torn between just going with the trusty AF75, or going for a more costly Ibanez (e.g. AK100, AK95, or AF95). For semi-hollow, I was thinking along the lines of the Ibanez AS103, AS93, or AS73.

I'm not really sure on the differences between the different Ibanez models, though. Not convinced the price increases are worth it.

My goal is to get as good a sounding guitar as possible, for as little as possible. I would like it to look, um, pretty, if possible too, but sound and playability are the major major major factors here by far. In other words, I'm not too averse to fugly if it's great and cheap. I'd rather not have to faff with upgrade mods like changing pickups unless absolutely necessary.

And I have a tele, strat, an Epi LP with SD 59s, and my Spear, so although I play a range of jazz styles, I'm not too bothered if the guitar doesn't do uh "ultra-modern" as I've got my solidbodies for that job. I'm after that woody acoustic tone as much as possible. My influences here are Jim Hall. And Jim Hall. And Jimmy Raney. Wouldn't say no to an axe that could also give me Scofield, Rosenwinkel, etc., but I'm really thinking more Hall, Raney, Bruno, Pass, Burrell, T-Bone Walker kinda traditional tone(s) here guys. Like distinctive. Def like distinctive over versatile.

Many thanks for your persuasive comments (I'm horrendously skint right now, so def need some persuation to help me start my jazzbox fund up)!

[billkath]

I won't offer any advice on actual models, as that's a very personal thing. However-the question was "Do I need a Hollow/Semi?", and I find that I just play in a different style when using my Epi ES175 compared to any of my other guitars. I'm rarely tempted to play rock and roll on it (even though it sounds great with a bit of slap-back on the bridge pickup!!). It's like-you know the way you'd play a 12-string differently than a 6 string acoustic? To me-it just encourages you to play more jazzily. Hand me a Les Paul and I tend to play in a Rock style. Hand me a Tele and I tend to chicken pick and double stop. I don't know why that is-perhaps I need some treatment!!
So-My advise-get yourself over to India and lose that other Kidney you don't use!!!! I'd go hollow over semi-purely because you have other guitars to do everything else apart from Jazz.

[randyc]

Given the people that are your biggest influences and given the fact that buying a guitar is exactly like buying a house: save until it hurts and buy the highest quality archtop that you can afford. Skip the semi-hollow for now - they are always available at reasonable prices and can be added in the future if the need arises.

Since you don't sell your guitars, I won't make the appreciation argument to you. But I will say this: there is an inspirational payback for the investment in a high quality instrument NOT made in Asia. You will realize this each and every time you pick up an instrument from a respected, historically-appreciated company.

I think that you're on the right track with the Godin but best bang for the buck is in used instruments. Personal recommendation for budget-limited acquisistions would be Guild, Heritage, Framus (older ones), Hofner and the like. It's unlikely that a used Gibson in decent condition will come your way in the U.K. (if I'm inferring your location correctly) for the budget that you've established.

Acquiring a quality archtop is the most guilt-free purchase one is ever likely to experience - seriously. Consider how much one invests in an automobile that lasts for a few years (requiring constant operational and maintenance cost) compared to how little most of us are willing to pay for an instrument that will last a lifetime and be passed along to one's children (who hopefully will respectfully receive it and not put it up on Ebay instantly).

Take your time, enjoy the experience of evaluation and reading up on various models. (It took me about three years of looking until I found "the" L-5. That's not atypical for a careful buyer - especially since you already have adequately performing instruments to get you by for now.)

Best of luck and cheers,
randyc

[Scrybe]

these are exactly the kind of persuasive arguments I was hoping to hear!!

randyc - yeah, whenever possible I go for the best instrument I can afford. at the moment, I'll have to really skrimp it together to put the £300-700 together for this, but I'm a firm believer in investing as much as possible for the best guitar you can get. I was originally thinking around the £300-400 mark, but upped it to 7 on that basis, even if it means a longer wait to acquire it. And then, the Benny/Sadowsky fund starts...... ;-) oh, and you're right, I'm UK based.

[randyc]

Happy Hunting !!! 700 pounds puts you within range of some fine instruments - not the flashiest in appearance but DEFINITELY quality construction and sound !!!

Two of my favorite guitars (a Guild and a Heritage) cost less than your budget; the Heritage H-575 has a solid carved spruce top while the Guild SF III is natural-finish laminated maple (but has a Bigsby - the only one that I own - it's nice, especially for jazzy blues).

I see that Bill posted while I was still typing my original response and I think that we said the same thing, more or less -

[Bill C]

If you are lucky you might find an old Gibson ES-125 for about 700 GBP - that will definitely do the bebop sound - it's basically a pre humbucker 175 without a cutaway - although the p90 can be prone to a little hum and feedback in my experience.

Originally Posted by randyc

But I will say this: there is an inspirational payback for the investment in a high quality instrument NOT made in Asia.

What exactly is wrong with a high quality instrument made in Asia? The two best guitars I have ever played were made in Japan and I've played and owned a fair number of high-end guitars NOT made in Asia ...

[randyc]

Originally Posted by Bill C

What exactly is wrong with a high quality instrument made in Asia? The two best guitars I have ever played were made in Japan and I've played and owned a fair number of high-end guitars NOT made in Asia ...

I don't recall using the words "high quality instrument made in Asia". In fact, I've never seen one of those so I wouldn't know what is wrong with them.

My experience is rather more narrowly focused on the "typical" made in Asia instrument. You might start here, as a sort of introduction:

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guita...od-gibson.html

[Bill C]

Originally Posted by randyc

there is an inspirational payback for the investment in a high quality instrument NOT made in Asia.

... I don't see the need for the "NOT made in Asia", that's all. I'm aware that there are a lot of budget instruments made in various Asian countries, but I've also played a couple of (imo) great guitars built in Japan.

I know you have expressed a preference for buying locally made goods Randy, but the OP is in Europe, so buying Asian or US is the same thing here - it's an import.

[randyc]

I DID mention two European brands for him to consider in addition to the Heritage and Guild suggestion

[Scrybe]

uh, guys, guys.....I'm a chick.

I looked up Heritage, but there's only one store selling them in the UK and the prices seem to be in £1.5-2k mark....there's no way I can afford that for a long while.

fwiw, I'm really not bothered which country my axe comes from, I'm just concerned with getting a quality instrument for the cash I'll be spending. and the longer term plan of getting a benny, sadowsky, or custom made guitar is pretty firm, but I'll still be using whatever axe I get now(ish) when gigging in some places, so I'm looking for a keeper.

think I'm sold on the idea of getting a full hollow tho, with the possibility of adding a semi to the rig later on.

[derek]

Originally Posted by randyc

I DID mention two European brands for him to consider in addition to the Heritage and Guild suggestion

Plus Godin is Canadian. I am with Randy on this. Given your list of heros, a hollowbody will get you in that realm easier. I think finding a Heritage 575 used could be the best option. I like the Guilds also, and they probably get closer to the ES175 than any other nonGibby guitar.

I have owned Eastman, but they tend to lean more toward a Benedetto sort of sound/feel than Gibson. They are fine instruments, but not really what you are talking about soundwise, though Bruno was a Benedetto player for most of his career. It has only been in the past couple of years he has gone to a laminate Sadowsky model. The rest of the guys listed are/were either Gibson players or played derivatives of Gibbos.

However you go, happy hunting.

[randyc]

Originally Posted by Scrybe

uh, guys, guys.....I'm a chick.

I'm sorry Ms. Scrybe ... somewhere in the recesses of my chemo-addled brain I think that I was aware of your gender.

regretfully,
randyc

[RAQ]

Originally Posted by Scrybe

randyc - yeah, whenever possible I go for the best instrument I can afford. at the moment, I'll have to really skrimp it together to put the £300-700 together for this, but I'm a firm believer in investing as much as possible for the best guitar you can get. I was originally thinking around the £300-400 mark, but upped it to 7 on that basis, even if it means a longer wait to acquire it. And then, the Benny/Sadowsky fund starts...... ;-) oh, and you're right, I'm UK based.

Given your position, as you describe it, and most of us have been there, I think your 'Ibanez now: Sadowski later' plan is a sound one - its more or less the plan I'm working to. Of course if you keep on buying budget guitars you never will get that Sadowski, but you can learn a lot from experimenting with good budget guitars before risking your life savings on a top quality instrument. A typical price for a Gibson L5, according to Google, is £6,000 - and then you had better have a close look at it. I bought the relatively modest Gibson ES137, and although you can just feel the overall quality of it, the quality control issues with it were appalling. Too many to list. So I don't buy into the Anti-Asian guitar theory either - judge for yourself with the guitar in your hands, if you can find one to try out.

It seems to me your choice is really between coming down to a hollow and a semi, and between the lower and upper Artcore models. One of each of the basic Ibanez instruments is probably just within your budget, and you would learn a lot about each type of guitar which would put you in a better positon to trust your judgement on a better instrument later on. The general opinion around here seems to be that the lower end models represent the best value for money, but the higher priced Artcores do have better necks and better pickups. I've just bought the AS103 - fantastic guitar when you balance quality and cost. There is a land where you're not allowed to learn to play guitar unless you buy a Gibson - it's called the 1950's.

PS: OK - it's taken me so long to ramble on that I've fallen behind the posts - if you are decided on a hollow body then I agree with the Godin too.

[randyc]

It seems that I've managed to offend every U.K. subject that's posted today, which was not my intent (and especially my fellow motorcycle afficionado, RAQ).

Please note that my recommendations didn't include "Gibson", the name was mentioned only in passing. It is a marque that is extremely important to me for personal historical reasons. I've been fortunate to own over twenty of these guitars that were flawless but it "occasionally" comes to my attention that others have not been equally fortunate.

cheers,
randyc

P.S. 6000 pounds for L-5CES is NUTS - nobody, NOBODY pays those prices. Mine was 5,600 DOLLARS

[Scrybe]

Originally Posted by randyc

I'm sorry Ms. Scrybe ... somewhere in the recesses of my chemo-addled brain I think that I was aware of your gender.

regretfully,
randyc

no worries hon, just pointing out for future ref.

[Scrybe]

Originally Posted by RAQ

It seems to me your choice is really between coming down to a hollow and a semi, and between the lower and upper Artcore models. One of each of the basic Ibanez instruments is probably just within your budget, and you would learn a lot about each type of guitar which would put you in a better positon to trust your judgement on a better instrument later on. The general opinion around here seems to be that the lower end models represent the best value for money, but the higher priced Artcores do have better necks and better pickups.

yeah, since pushing the budget up to c£700, I'm now umming and ahhing a bit between one full/semi from the top end of that budget, or one full plus one semi from the lower end.

whichever way I go, that'll be me done for budget guitars. no more guitars until I get my benny or similar. and knowing that is also making it a little harder to choose than usual. plus not owning any in these styles before. I would mod the pups eventually if they would benefit from it, but I'm really not looking to do that for a year or two after buying really, so I'd need pups that are decent enough not to require an immediate changeout.

[RAQ]

Originally Posted by randyc

It seems that I've managed to offend every U.K. subject that's posted today, which was not my intent (and especially my fellow motorcycle afficionado, RAQ).

Fellow biker - I'm not really offended, but people in different situations, and especially buying Gibson in the UK, face a different situation.

I'm trying to write this too quickly, so forgive the poor quality - but I'm getting ready to set off to a reunion of the AJS & Matchless Owners Club tomorrow. It's 40 years since a group of eager young faces (with hair in those days) met up to share their interests in matters Plumstead. There's eight of us left, forty years on. You and I surely have more in common than the odd quibble over a MIK guitar.

[randyc]

Of course we do - I revere the memory of my G-50 (my right calf still aches at the thought) !!!

[Scrybe]

oh, quick addendum - my Spear solidbody plus Marshall amp gives me some really nice close to traditional dark tones (minus the acoustic part, obv), and I really want something I can play unplugged that will sound equally jazzy (or close). Basically, I wanna be able to jazz on this thing unplugged without it sounding like total crap. Or bright as hell (which, the more I jazz, the more my Ibanez acoustic sounds that way).

[randyc]

Oops ! LEFT calf - I've been riding Japanese motorcycles for too long.

[Bill C]

Originally Posted by randyc

It seems that I've managed to offend every U.K. subject that's posted today

You've not offended me sir - robust debate is a good thing

Originally Posted by randyc

P.S. 6000 pounds for L-5CES is NUTS - nobody, NOBODY pays those prices. Mine was 5,600 DOLLARS

There is always a premium on the price of US guitars over here. If I found an L5 for 5,600 USD, it would cost me approx 20% on top so another 1,120 USD, to get it into the UK. Buying from a shop will obviously be more still ...

[randyc]

Ahhhhhh - I forgot about V.A.T.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I would +1 on going for a hollow body over a semi -- you've got enough other guitars to get you close to a semi sound, and you also mentioned playing acoustically. One thing to consider with a hollow body is how big? I'm a pretty big guy, so a L-5 fits me -- 17" lower bout and >3" depth, but many people (especially if you're coming from solid bodies) find that too much of a dog house. ES-175-style are typically 16" and you can find full hollow bodies that are 2"-something. Just something to keep in mind...

[Archie]

Scrybe, last November I bought an ES-135 from an eBay seller in Liverpool for 875 pounds. The only quality issue with it was a volume pot that had gone bad and had to be replaced. I bought a new one for 4 euros. It was a lovely guitar, and I sold it, against my better judgement, to a very good jazz guitarist here who was so dazzled by it when he tried it that he made me an offer I couldn't refuse.

I regretted selling it; it had a really smooth rich tone that none of my other guitars has, so I just bought a 335 to replace it.

I'd recommend saving up a bit, then look around and when you find something you like, that you think will be a keeper, bargain like mad.

[randyc]

Here are three guitars - the ones propped against the cabinet - that when purchased would meet your budget in U.S. $ (neglecting the VAT):



The one in the middle is the ES-135 that Archie mentioned (purchased for $900 U.S. new in 2003) and he is right; it has a syrupy tone that has to be heard to believe. The guitar on the left is the Heritage H-575 (their version of the ES-175 but with carved spruce top) purchased used last year, right at the upper bound of your budget. On the right is the Guild SF III, purchased new for $950 U.S. in 1998 and - amazingly - not much more than that (used) at this time. Both the Guild and the Heritage are hollow-body guitars while the ES-135 is semi-hollow.

The two guitars on stands above them are not within your immediate budget but are not out of the question for future aspiration, especially the L-4CES on the left. The upper-right guitar is the L-5CES "Wes Montgomery" model.

(As a matter of interest, just above the Guild guitar is a photograph of Johnny Cash with my Grandmother - we were once neighbors in Tennessee.)

Photos always add a little spice to the discussion, I think.

cheers,
randyc

[Scrybe]

BDLH - good thought! I'm used to playing dreadnoughts, so I should be okay with the bigger boxes, but I wouldn't mind something that fits nice.

I'm seriously very skint right now, a good chunk of my weekly budget is going on lessons, so the fund is gonna take months to build up, basically save as much as I can each week and add that to it. But I'm in another city for lessons and may be going to the east coast US in the summer (well testing the sadowskys and bennys just for kicks if I do!), so I'm looking to test as many guitars in that price range as possible while I'm saving the cash. Then, when I have a fair amount saved and a clearer idea of what I want, I'll check out the used sections or go with store-bought if something is particularly hot.

I've added the Guild, Heritage, etc., names to my list as stuff to check out if I get the chance (even if a little out of my price range, just for comparison), so keep any suggestions like that coming. It may well boil down to whether I want one guitar or two - and whether there really is much difference between a £300 axe and a £700 one. Whatever I get, it has to sound goo dunplugged as well as plugged in tho.

[Scrybe]

Originally Posted by randyc

Here are three guitars - the ones propped against the cabinet - that when purchased would meet your budget in U.S. $ (neglecting the VAT):



The one in the middle is the ES-135 that Archie mentioned (purchased for $900 U.S. new in 2003) and he is right; it has a syrupy tone that has to be heard to believe. The guitar on the left is the Heritage H-575 (their version of the ES-175 but with carved spruce top) purchased used last year, right at the upper bound of your budget. On the right is the Guild SF III, purchased new for $950 U.S. in 1998 and - amazingly - not much more than that (used) at this time. Both the Guild and the Heritage are hollow-body guitars while the ES-135 is semi-hollow.

The two guitars on stands above them are not within your immediate budget but are not out of the question for future aspiration, especially the L-4CES on the left. The upper-right guitar is the L-5CES "Wes Montgomery" model.

(As a matter of interest, just above the Guild guitar is a photograph of Johnny Cash with my Grandmother - we were once neighbors in Tennessee.)

Photos always add a little spice to the discussion, I think.

cheers,
randyc

And I now have so much gas it's a good thing there's no one else in the room to smell it......

And there is something about a played in jazzbox that I really dig....

[lpdeluxe]

Patience is good. I'm a big fan of thin archtops (a 335 is my number one electric), but there's a lot of love for true archtops around here.

My strategy has always been to accumulate the necessary funds, then to pounce when I found the one I wanted. Other players have different methods, but, as long as you get the ONE, you're doing things properly.

[randyc]

Originally Posted by Scrybe

... Whatever I get, it has to sound goo dunplugged as well as plugged in tho...

Naturally we all have different definitions of what sounds good unplugged - for me, that would eliminate all semi-hollowbody guitars, unhappily.

There are a couple of other wonderful thin hollowbodies to look into, most especially several of the Hofners - quality, good looks, nice fit for a smaller-framed person, good unamplified sound and great prices. These are impressive instruments - in some ways a better buy even than a Guild. (I almost bought one about 6 weeks ago but BDLH scared me off, LOL.)

And then there's the ES-330TDC, an economy model when purchased in 1964 but worth considerably more than my L-5 now ! Wonderful little guitar - my main hollowbody instrument for years and still the number two favorite just behind the L-5. Little chance of finding one of these at reasonable cost, though the model is also worthy of future aspiration.

So many wonderful guitars, it's almost a privilege to discuss them

OOPS ! So sorry, here it is, with sweet old P-90s instead of humbuckers:

[randyc]

Ordered early this week and "under construction" at the moment is the Carvin SH-550 semi-hollow, natural finished maple/mahogany with two split-coil humbuckers (will match my '79 Carvin DC-150 solid body). The guitar will be finished in about 5 weeks and then four lucky members of the forum will get to play it for a month or two before I even get to SEE it !!! How fair is that? Will post photos, obviously -

OOPS again - here's the DC-150. Obviously the SH-550 will be bigger and fatter + I ordered a quilted maple headstock:



Like this one:

http://www.vantaanmusiikki.fi/shop/images/sh550.jpg