A good sounding cheap amp

[LarryL]

I was shopping for a cheap small amp.

Behringer makes a practice amp called the Firebird GX-108. It's a 15 watt solid state amp that had gotten good reviews. I was looking for one on Ebay, when I ran across the bass version, Thunderbird BX-108. It has the same cool vintage appearance and similar specs and it was only $40.00. What could I possibly lose?

I gotta admid, this is a very fine sounding little amp, especially for jazz. It's extremely clean sounding and gets pretty loud, too.

I'm curious if anyone else out there has tried it, or any other bass amp for that matter.

Here's the link.
MUSICAL INSTRUMENT AMPLIFICATION - BASS AMPLIFICATION - THUNDERBIRD BX108 : Guitar/Bass Practice Combo

[Marcos Zarevich]

I don't know that particular amp, but everything behringer that I've owned or tried was just tolerable to be benign, if you're looking for a practice amp to play at home, I would consider the Vox Pathfinder, or a little Roland Cube, I haven't tried one of those little tube amps like the fender champion, but they say there's a number of fine copies from Harley Benton or Fame that are amazingly cheap

[derek]

The Beringer stuff is REALLY hit or miss. The local store where I spend most of my $ quit carrying them this past year because they sent back almost as much stuff as they sold. Many items not working out of the box.

There is a Musician's Friend Clearance Center here also, and it is always chock full of Beringer stuff. Thing is, if you get some use out of it, great because the price is so cheap. However, I would never trust it outside of what you are talking about.

[LarryL]

I can't believe all the responses I'm getting trashing Behringer.

My intent was not to tout this little practice amp as the next great jazz amplifier; an heir to Fender Twins or Polytone Mini Brutes. I had exactly two points I was making, neither of which anyone has addressed.

The first is that this is a cheap amplifier that looks and sounds really good. I paid an absurd forty dollars for mine, and even brand new they can be had for less than a hundred.

The other thing I found interesting was that it was the bass guitar version of this amp. The only differences I could find in the spec sheets between the bass and guitar versions was the input impedence of the front end. If the speakers are different there's no way to tell by the spec sheet.

If anyone has any comments concerning these two points, I'd love to hear them. I've been playing for more than 40 years and I'm still delighted to find really good, cheap gear.

[Framus01]

Hi,

Noticed you guys mentioning Behringer amplifiers. Does anyone have any experience with the Behringer V-Tone GMX210 ?

Opinions concerning this amp differ between very bad and very good. Haven't checked it out myself yet. As I haven't got the cash to get me an stereo amp of more renowned and quality proven brands I'd might go and check out the Behringer.

Well that is if none of you comes up with solid arguments why Behringer gear is trash. It will save me a trip to the store.

So (former) behringer users lets hear all your complains/compliments.

Pete


http://www.behringer.com/GMX210/index.cfm?lang=ENG

[derek]

Originally Posted by LarryL

I can't believe all the responses I'm getting trashing Behringer.

My intent was not to tout this little practice amp as the next great jazz amplifier; an heir to Fender Twins or Polytone Mini Brutes. I had exactly two points I was making, neither of which anyone has addressed.

The first is that this is a cheap amplifier that looks and sounds really good. I paid an absurd forty dollars for mine, and even brand new they can be had for less than a hundred.

If anyone has any comments concerning these two points, I'd love to hear them. I've been playing for more than 40 years and I'm still delighted to find really good, cheap gear.

Larry not sure what you are getting worked up about. Beringer does make subpro quality stuff whether or not you agree. "Trashing" Beringer has nothing to do with you, unless you own or have a part in making their products. Besides, I didn't, nor did I read anyone trashing them. I pointed out some first hand experience with two companies I know who carry(ed) their stuff.

I did point out that for the $ if you get use out of it, great. I also confirmed how you were using it was the best application. So I did address both of your points. Hey, if you are getting a tone you like out of it, and it lasts, great, because as you point out, tough to beat their price. I say good luck with it. However, I do not recommend them unless you are willing to roll the dice, and many are due to the low price.

[LarryL]

I own a GMX-210. I bought it used from a local dealer for a hundred bucks. They sell new for about twice that.

Shortly after I got it it exhibited a noisy power supply, which the dealer fixed no charge. Neither he or I had any idea how old it was or how it had been used when it was traded in on the more powerful GMX212.

I think it's a pretty good amp for the money. It has a lot of useful features, especially the various inputs and amp and speaker models.

The effects are a bit over the top. there are so many of them! I primarily use a bit of reverb and chorus. It's very useful to be able to use combinations of reverb with chorus, delay, phaser, etc. It's also useful to set the two channels to different effect settings and switch between them. The footswitch is included with this amp. By the way, the User's Manuel is available for download at the Behringer website.

My experience with Behringer products has, by and large, been positive. My first amp ever was a Fender Twin I bought in 1966. That was a great amp and there are many examples of those still around. They sell for a lot more than the GMX210, though.

Since I seldom play out anymore the Behringers suit my purposes just fine. They sound good, have all the features I need, and are cheap. My advice to you is to buy one from a local dealer rather than one of the online mail order guys. That way, if you have a problem you can have it taken care of locally. Preparing a 30 pound amplifier for shipping can ruin your day.

I hope this information helps.

[jpaul00]

Small bass amps are usually good for jazz. The tone is a little darker and usually cleaner. Danelectro used to make a small bass amp that had a great reputation as a jazz practice amp. I think small bass amps, even cheap ones, have less muddy sound, especially for the wound strings on a jazz guitar.

My vote for a good sounding cheap amp for jazz is my Crate GX-15R. I paid $75.00 used, but they can be had for less. It has a good clean channel and a nice overdrive channel that sounds suprisingly good for jazz if you use just a little edge of distortion (think sixties George Benson). I put a Jensen Mod speaker in mine for about $20.00. I even recovered it in red tolex and put in oxblood grillecloth. The reverb is a real spring unit. Keep in mind most cheapies don't have much power, and when you use them next to a really good expensive amp, they don't sound as good. But at home, or in a friend's living room, they do the job, and it is fun to find a good one.

[Framus01]

Thnx for the input Larry.

[bob32069]

Hi Larry,

I have the amp you're talking about. Bought it when I made a short-lived foray into electric bass. I actually tried the amp out to play jazz guitar not to long ago and was also surprised that it sounded quite good for that purpose. I also own a Roland cube 60 which gets some nice sounds for jazz so I mostly use the cube. Reason I tried the bass amp for guitar was that I read about how the Fender Bassman was found to have a great guitar sound. I am glad to hear that other people are discovering the same thing about the Behringer.

[LarryL]

The late 50's era Fender Bassman combo is one of THE most highly sought after amps. In the book"GUITAR RIGS, Classic Guitar and Amp Combos" The author names it along with the Stratocaster from the same time period as the classic R&B duo ever.

I'm not putting my little Behringer in that catagory. I'm just saying that, for an under $100.00 amp it provides a really nice clean sound. I'm sitting here right now, with my G&L plugged into it, finger picking some 12 bar blues and it really sounds good. A wonderful little living room amp.

[kawa]

My test report,

"Peavey Envoy 110 Jazz Tone Test" Ser.G0113936 and G0113942
Refer Amp:'66 BFVR(C10NS×2) V2.5 T1(Min) B3.5
Inst:'67 ES-175DN,Strings:Gibson SEG-1040ML

"Results"
Envoy setting:Modern mode B3 M2 H0
Very nice fat jazz tone.
Blue Marvel speaker and TransTube circuit are so good.

[JohnW400]

Just to bring it up because I think it's pertinent and not to throw mud.....

This months Guitar Player has a blurb about Beringer and their Chinese plant. There is one caption that mentions tube inspection and how they usually wind up throwing out 1/2 as QC rejects. Their intent is to show how well they monitor their production. But the truth is after discounting the 'spin' is this does not speak well of the parts they use.

[fep]

Behringer has such a price point advantage. They have little R&D expense as they ignore copyrights and they have low labor costs as they build in China. I haven't had experience with their amps but their pa speakers and their mixing boards (both Mackie rip-offs) are consider a real value.

[mr. beaumont]

i know this is a terrible attitude, but at this price point, the stuff is almost disposable...if you get a year out of it, you've got your money's worth, right?

[TieDyedDevil]

Larry, I'm familiar with the BX-108. I bought one for my older son some years ago when he expressed an interest in playing bass guitar. I can imagine that BX-108 would make a very nice practice amp for guitar.


I have a number of pieces of Behringer gear. The biggest disadvantage of owning Behringer gear is that of having to deal with the Behringer-haters when they see what you're using.

Behringer is just another option. FWIW, I see no evidence that they're copying anything except physical appearance. Just because a Behringer mixing board *looks* like a Mackie, or a Berhringer pedal *looks* like a Boss or an Electro-Harmonix does *not* mean that the guts are identical or even strongly similar (beyond providing mostly-equivalent functionality).

Behringer is all about mass-production. They keep their costs low by using inexpensive labor and extensive automation. I don't know if any of you have ever been involved in creating a mass-produced product (I have), but there's a lot of expense and overhead beyond R&D. FWIW, R&D expense as a percentage of product cost is normally very low; even if Behringer *was* copying designs literally, they're *definitely* not saving enough money by doing so to be able to sell product at 1/2 to 1/3 the price of the name-brand look-alike.

I don't know of *any* company that starts with a completely blank slate when developing a product. There are *remarkably* few true innovators, and a *lot* of copy-cats.

Behringer reduces their marketing costs by exploiting visual similarity. When they make a look-alike product they piggyback on the marketing efforts of the name-brand manufacturer. The consumer is already familiar with the features and benefits of the name-brand product. So long as Behringer delivers comparable functionality, the user now has a choice of acquiring a strongly similar product from two different manufacturers at two dramatically different price points.

A lot of people cite Behringer for having questionable "business morals". These people are unclear on the function of a corporation, which is to maximize profits. A company will tout "soft values" such as morality, eco-friendliness, community service, etc. only to the extent that such actions are perceived to increase profits. Corporations have a long history of breaking laws when the cost of fines and legal battles is less than the increase in profit as a result of the illegal activity.

[fep]

Originally Posted by TieDyedDevil

Behringer is just another option. FWIW, I see no evidence that they're copying anything except physical appearance. Just because a Behringer mixing board *looks* like a Mackie, or a Berhringer pedal *looks* like a Boss or an Electro-Harmonix does *not* mean that the guts are identical or even strongly similar (beyond providing mostly-equivalent functionality).

Saying you see no evidence they're copying anything except physical appearance is not a valid argument and is very misleading. From a logical perspective that statement doesn't mean anything, but it would be easy for a reader to read into it that you know what you're talking about (and maybe you do, but that can't be determined from that sentence).

To make the argument that they are not copies you need evidence such as you've opened them up and compared the insides, that would be the strongest personal evidence - although I don't have the resources to do that.

I found an article regarding a lawsuit between Mackie and Behringer that says this (admittingly not as strong of evidence as personal observation but about the best I can do):

BEHRINGER Spezielle Studiotechnik GmbH, and its U.S. distributor, Samson Technologies, apparently won another round in a protracted legal battle with Mackie Designs. On November 30 the U.S. District Court in Seattle, Washington, dismissed Mackie claims that Behringer had infringed on Mackie copyrights with its MX 8000 mixer.

In its dismissal of the copyright claim, the court noted that Mackie's circuit board designs were not covered by the U.S. copyright office

It seems this case was specifically about the circuit board design, not the appearance.

[JohnW400]

"Caveat Emptor" . Let the customer beware.

Companies that model their low end product to look like their competitors high end product is just plain smarmy, like the guy in Times Square trying to sell you cubit zirconium and telling you it's just as good as a diamond.

but, companies do this everyday, which is probably why there are so many lawyers in this world.

In a similar case, Fender lost a case for copyright infringment or something like that as they tried to protect their designs. I don't know the whole story. It was just a blurb in the local paper as the winning shark, I mean lawyer, is a bass player from NJ.

[fep]

But, the point I'm trying to make is that from what I've read, Behringer doesn't just copy the "look" of Mackie they also copy the "guts" and Mackie has sued them several times for exactly that.

I've already personally boycotted Monster Cable for unscrupolous business practices, now it's time to boycott Behringer. Not that little ol me is going to make much of a difference.

[TieDyedDevil]

I've done some research regarding the lawsuits. As far as I have been able to tell, Behringer gets sued for trademark and trade-dress infringements. This is consistent with my assertion that Behringer exploits visual similarity in order to save on marketing costs.

Implementations of devices based upon prior art can't be patented, nor (as I understand from my research) can circuit board layouts be copyrighted. This latter point was from a court ruling in the Behringer/Mackie case; it may be the reason why Mackie settled with Behringer under undisclosed terms.

Regarding Monster Cables: I personally don't care for their business practices, either. (Suing every possible commercial interest that uses "Monster" in their name...) The reason I don't buy their products, though, is because the products do not represent a good value. (IMO and IME, of course. YMMV.)

[fast1]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

i know this is a terrible attitude, but at this price point, the stuff is almost disposable...if you get a year out of it, you've got your money's worth, right?

i agree, have you checked amazon? sometimes they have great deals there unexpectedly... who knows you might be in luck

[gary mitchell]

how much do you really want to spend dont be shy most all of us have been there, and the way things are now some are there again my job just went to japan. thank god my wifes a nurse.

[gingerjazz]

laney make some greAT AMPS FOR THE MONEY

[woyvel]

Okay, I'll weigh in since I write a blog called "Cheap Guitar Guy".

I'd check out the modeling amps, particularly the Vox and the Roland Cubes. I had a Pathfinder and wasn't crazy about it. I like my Valvetronix and its Vox models better. Roland's Cubes should be checked out too.

Bass amps aren't a bad idea at all because the 15" speaker will sound a little more, well, bassy, which is why you roll back the treble on your jazz guitar to begin with. More headroom, often higher wattage, and that's done to achieve clean tones.

I just picked up a 2x12 Crate 100W amp for $129 because it was clean. I found a handful of used Crates in the area, but this one was sans effects, which is what I wanted. Not portable as a practice amp. But then the ZT Lunchbox at $259 is very small and clean if you want it to be, and LOUD (200 watts).

As for the Behringer debate, the quality is probably hit and miss, as you'll find with a LOT of budget-priced items, and sometimes even the higher end stuff.

[BMaag]

Originally Posted by Framus01

Hi,

Noticed you guys mentioning Behringer amplifiers. Does anyone have any experience with the Behringer V-Tone GMX210 ?

Opinions concerning this amp differ between very bad and very good. Haven't checked it out myself yet. As I haven't got the cash to get me an stereo amp of more renowned and quality proven brands I'd might go and check out the Behringer.

Well that is if none of you comes up with solid arguments why Behringer gear is trash. It will save me a trip to the store.

So (former) behringer users lets hear all your complains/compliments.

Pete


http://www.behringer.com/GMX210/index.cfm?lang=ENG

I own the GX 210 which is no longer in production, but seems very similar to the GMX 210. It's been my main gigging amp for 7 or 8 years now, and it still works fine. The only issue I've had with it is that was pretty noisy, but a new power cord fixed that problem. Another issue was that sometimes it emitted a very loud and annoying hum which seemed to stem from the digital processing somehow (I don't know much about digital amp stuff). Anyway, that got fixed when I took it to my local repair guy for $20. Other than those 2 problems (which were easily addressed and corrected), the amp works fine and I continue to get great tones out of it after 7 or 8 years. As for other behringer products, I own a 12 channel mixer which works superbly for live or recording purposes. Other behringer amps I know nothing about.

[LarryL]

BMaag, have you seen my comments above concerning then GMX210? Though I no longer have the amp my opinion about it is still about the same.

I think this model is no longer made. If you can find one you can play before purchasing it you should do so. They tend to be somewhat variable.

[Big Ron]

Check out the IBANEZ SW 20 or SW 35.

Ron

[heavyblues]

EDIT: read the post wrong, my bad.

[cosmic gumbo]

I'm saving my lunch money for a really sweet First Act amp I saw at Target. I think George Benson or Pat Martino uses one.

[heavyblues]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I'm saving my lunch money for a really sweet First Act amp I saw at Target. I think George Benson or Pat Martino uses one.

hahaha.....on another note, did you know you can get the cube 15 for $100? I own a cube 60 and I've played the cube 30...if its similar enough to the cube 30, i bet its worth it.