I am leaning towards an es-165..

SamBooka · #1 03-10-2010, 02:24 PM

Any one have any stories to tell?
I would be buying used so I havent decided on a floater or an HB.

With a floating PU I can cut the top and put the picukp of my choice in.

I have heard (and seen) spotty QC on Gibsons so I would probably order online from someone reputable.

There is nothing out there right now but i am patient

Thoughts?

BigDaddyLoveHandles · #2 03-10-2010, 02:30 PM

Random thoughts, eh? Exactly what sort of guitar are you looking for? What price range?

SamBooka · #3 03-10-2010, 02:57 PM

For now.. ES-165

BigDaddyLoveHandles · #4 03-10-2010, 03:02 PM

It's not clear to me what you write. Are you saying some ES-165's come with floating pickups? I thought they all had the single, mounted, neck HB.

derek · #5 03-10-2010, 03:16 PM

Not as of 2004/2005. They come standard now with a floater, which strikes me as odd. Floaters are made to accentuate the properties of a solid wood top, allowing it to vibrate. Mounted buckers are basically a big weight attached to the top, minimizing vibrations in a solid wood top.

A plywood guitar with a floater just seems a strange combo. However, I remain open to an explaination as to why. The Epi Emperor Reagent has this configuration also.

To the OP, if it were me, I would get an older 165 with the bucker. Basically a 1 pup version of the 175. Good luck.

BigDaddyLoveHandles · #6 03-10-2010, 03:29 PM

Oh, didn't know that. I think the "floater+laminate" combo is odd, too, as if someone pretending the guitar is something that it's not.

What's the price range for an older ES-165? Is it in the same range as the Sadowsky Jim Hall (hint, hint)?

Bill C · #7 03-10-2010, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamBooka

Any one have any stories to tell?
I would be buying used so I havent decided on a floater or an HB.

With a floating PU I can cut the top and put the picukp of my choice in.

why not get the built-in mode?l - then you can replace the HB with any other HB without butchering the guitar. I played a HB 165 some years ago - very nice - dark 175-like sound.

SamBooka · #8 03-10-2010, 03:33 PM

Yeah.. I am not opposed to the floater because I can easily put in a CC or a P90 down the road. If, at the end of the day, I decide I prefer an HB well I can do that too. These are all things I can do if it already has an HB, I just have to be more creative in getting them to fit.

Looking on ebay at completed auctions they seem to go for about 1700$ plus shipping. So that is within my price range of 2000 and under.

I am more concerned about buying online since everyone and their dog has complained about inconsistent QC from Gibbys. The reviews of this guitar I have read so far is it is a one trick pony but that is fine with me.
People who accept that LOVE this guitar. One specific review had a complaint about the fit/finish, not the materials or the concept.

I have been keeping an eye open at 12fret.com Jhale and archtop.com
Any other places you can recommend?

goshawk · #9 03-10-2010, 04:09 PM

guitarsnjazz.com might be worth keeping an eye on. I don't think they sell new Gibsons, but they seem to have a number of used ones on hand. They also sell Peerless, Eastman, Heritage and a few others brands as well. I haven't dealt with them myself, but I've heard good things.

SamBooka · #10 03-10-2010, 04:20 PM

Thanks Goshawk.
I have been checking GBase too.

SamBooka · #11 03-10-2010, 04:42 PM

I actually found one on kijiji about 2 hrs from my house. Guy posted it in Jan but it hasnt sold yet. For the price of a tank of gas I should be able to check it out in person

randyc · #12 03-10-2010, 06:12 PM

I played a new one about two years ago in a music store. Although I don't care for floaters, the guitar played nicely and felt very comfortable (it should, since I put in years of playing time with the L-4CES). Have you actually played one yet?

SamBooka · #13 03-10-2010, 06:35 PM

I have played new ones in stores. In Ottawa two different stores had on each 165 and 175. I definitely prefered the 165 but there were other factors involved. I was mentally uncomfortable with the weird S shape of the 175 top. All 4 guitars were badly set up and had dead strings. For specific issues nothing jumped out at me that I can still remember but this was in July and memory isnt what it should be.

With this one, if I dont like it I dont buy it. I am out 40$ in gas and 4 hours of my life but will have an ounce more experience (i.e. not a total loss)

EDIT: He sent me more pics, the guitar is from a shop in my town.. funny that.

randyc · #14 03-10-2010, 06:43 PM

Good luck Drew! Wish I could talk you into going $1k higher, I think your options would open up quite a bit!

SamBooka · #15 03-10-2010, 07:51 PM

I know this is a foolish attitude but I look at this as
a) getting the guitar for a fair price means loosing very little on resale when the time comes
b)since I have been playing jazz guitar for a year and a half I doubt I will outgrow the 165 in the next 24 months. At that time I reevalutate my needs. Maybe by then I will have gone Holdsworthian and wont even need a guitar anymore.
c) What I want is a 17in 25 1/5 Vintage Sunbust with traditional Venetian cutaway and a P90 in the neck. This AINT it.. but it keeps coming back to me as a guitar that makes me say Ahhhh..
d) as I mentioned in a) I am buying a used guitar at a fair price. I am not selling a liver. I can resell later.

That said... I am tied up at work for the next 2 weeks so will not check it out before then. If it sells, it sells. I missed my chance (the guy posted the ad in january and it expires in a few days). And if I have a change of heart or a lottery ticket to get me a Gibson Wes, well $hit happens

I still would like to hear suggestions, experiences, reputable dealers etc

randyc · #16 03-11-2010, 02:06 AM

Knowledgeable, experienced members (like SamBooka) don't require a reminder of the informal survey conducted some months back on our forum. Newer and younger members of the forum might benefit from a review of financial considerations associated with a guitar purchase.

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guitar-amps-gizmos/6962-american-guitars-money-part-1-a.html

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guitar-amps-gizmos/6963-american-guitars-money-part-2-a.html

The data, in spreadsheet format is available to any curious person, just ask.

TommyD · #17 03-11-2010, 02:59 AM

I have/play a 165 with a pup sunk into the top, and I like it. It does however, have the usual 175 problem - it wants to play other strings by itself when you're playing single-strings. Every 175/165 I've ever heard has the problem, and people do all sorts of stuff to stop it. I wish Gibson would fix the problem once and for all.
That said, it's a terrific jazz guitar with a nice neck and scale length, and has a really nice dark sound. I personally like the punchy sound of laminated guitars. I play mine with a piece of chamois under the strings at the nut to stop the string reverbs (I've bored everybody stiff on these boards with a description of this fix, and I won't do it again.)
I believe that 165s are built in Gibson's custom shop and seem to be appreciating in value. I know that mine is worth more than I paid for it new.
Oh, and it's a neat size - compact and easy-handling.

Good luck!

Tommy/

NSJ · #18 03-11-2010, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamBooka

At that time I reevalutate my needs. Maybe by then I will have gone Holdsworthian and wont even need a guitar anymore.

Ha! Thank you sir, that made me crack up as I drink my morning coffee. A very good day to you!

goshawk · #19 03-11-2010, 01:51 PM

A couple of other ideas for guitars:

The Ibanez JP-20. To me, this is a very similar concept to the Sadowsky Jim Hall, a variation on the 175 with a single pickup. I demo'd one a few months back and liked it very much -- if I had had the cash, would have bought it -- but there are a lot of people who will tell you it's a lousy guitar.

If you're willing to look at something a lot less traditional, there's the Eastman El Rey 1. Unusual design, although with "traditional" construction (carved solid wood, including a spruce top). If you ordered one from jhalemusic.com, you could probably specify the pickup you wanted and possibly get a custom finish and still stay in your budget. If you went on eBay, you could probably pick one up for $1200-$1300, maybe less (I got mine for under $1000).

I like the El Rey a lot. Comfortable to play and, to me at least, delivers the kind of jazz tone I was looking for.

Bill C · #20 03-11-2010, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goshawk

A couple of other ideas for guitars:

The Ibanez JP-20. To me, this is a very similar concept to the Sadowsky Jim Hall, a variation on the 175 with a single pickup. I demo'd one a few months back and liked it very much -- if I had had the cash, would have bought it -- but there are a lot of people who will tell you it's a lousy guitar.

I've read some people don't like the pickup location, too near the bridge ...

goshawk · #21 03-11-2010, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill C

I've read some people don't like the pickup location, too near the bridge ...

Yeah, that's what I've read: that the pickup location (and possibly quality) were no good, making the guitar sound thin and trebly. I've also heard that Pass himself didn't care for the guitar much. However, you can find plenty of clips on YouTube with him playing it (I've read that he also used it for recording) and I think it sounds pretty good. Of course, he also sounded good playing his Fender Jaguar, so maybe it says more about the guitarist than the guitar.

SamBooka · #22 03-11-2010, 05:33 PM

I dont believe everything I have read. Take it all with a dose of salt and lime. Joe used the JP more often on tour overseas in later years because he didnt want to bring anything too valuable. I have hear the complaints about the pickup location as well. A JP was on the radar but the advantage to the 165 is I can actually try before I buy. All positive reviews. What I have never liked about ES175s is the bridge pickup.

Anyway, I think it is Meggy who has a JP. He has done some interesting mods and I think he could chime in on the virtues of the JP.

Ingeneri, I have a custome P90 from Lollar in my EmpReg. Very happy with it, the quality, the service and price. I was going to get a CC from Lollar but the price seemed pretty high for just taste testing. I ordered a Vintage Vibe CCRider instead (should be here next week). Again, great CS from VV. We will see about sound and build quality.

Too much typing.. must .. stop.

goshawk · #23 03-12-2010, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamBooka

I ordered a Vintage Vibe CCRider instead (should be here next week). Again, great CS from VV. We will see about sound and build quality.

Too much typing.. must .. stop.

Please post a review of the VV pickup. I was very impressed by Pete's responsiveness when I contacted him with some questions, and I'm still thinking about replacing the pickup on my Eastman with one of his.

jazzbow · #24 03-12-2010, 03:47 PM

Saw your post on es165 and last comment on vv cc rider. I would love to own such a nice guitar as gibbo/el rey but that would mean I would have to sell all my 10 guitars to get close to the purchase price! Anyhoo, I scour the muso shops for decent well made guitars for a good price, peerless started out with reasonable prices here in the UK but have changed distribution and they've gone up 20%!! What I have though is two Tanglewood (Cort in USA) J R Triggs single pickup hollow thinline guitars, one stock with original mighty mite humbucker and the other with a vv ccrider that I installed. These guitars are maple necked, rosewood f/board and maple laminate body. All mods and hard cases both set me back £750 sterling but purchased 6 years apart. The ccrider pickup is really crystal clear where the mighty mite is quite bassy and dark with little twang. The tone on the ccrider settles around the half way mark with dark coming in quite nicely. As for the gibbo es165 I would settle on an earlier version but check out some other makes in the same vein, the Koreans and Japanese do jazzboxes well, Peerless do the jazz city or the Burny es165 copy!!!

goshawk · #25 03-12-2010, 06:09 PM

I always forget about the Cort archtops. One to the top luthiers in the New York area recommended them to me, once, and I've had one or two players speak well of them, too.

Also, Epiphone has produced a version of the ES-165, the recently discontinued Zephyr Regent.

dmort · #26 03-12-2010, 06:16 PM

I just bought a schecter Jazz-6, which I know isn't what you are looking for really, from Elderly.com. Great service, very fast shipping. The instrument arrived exactly as described. They got someone on the phone, with the guitar in hand, so I could ask questions about the condition and such.

SamBooka · #27 03-12-2010, 07:33 PM

CC will go in my Epi EmpReg. I will be CERTAIN to give you more details once it is in. The Emp Reg is now my ho' guitar. Change the brigde, change the strings, change the pickups. I CANT affect the value on it but it is a good guitar so it is a good test platform. When I spoke to VV the plan was to put in the CC and if I didnt like it move to a more traditional P90. Pete was great for giving advice on the pickup. Fast and helpful. To be fair tho, whenever I deal with smaller companies they usually kick ass. Weber, Lollar, Antique Electronics. They all treat me well and as a direct result get my $$$. I wont name the ones who dont. One exception, I have the email of a guy from Fender who is always fast and helpful. I hope he stays a LOOONG time.

When I was looking for for an entry level archtop I tried an Epi Zephyr Regent (new MIK). It was the only guitar that made me go Wow. It was SOOOO warm (thats right, all caps, it was just THAT warm). My concern was with the HB in the neck it would be too dark. I let it pass. Of all the guitars I tried (Gibson, Hofner, Eastman, Washburn, Epis, Ibanez, etc etc etc) it is the one that stuck in my mind. Maybe it is the mahogany (albeit plywood) back, maybe it was just that one guitar. I wont forget it tho.

EDIT: I should not have saved when i did. So I did mucho editing on my last post. Sorry.

jazzbow · #28 03-14-2010, 09:50 AM

the burny es165 pictures I posted earlier seem to be a new line just being imported to the UK, as for their quality I cannot comment. Apparently the burny/fernandez guitar company and others upset the major USA manufacturers some time back so whether they are still quality I do not know.

Eddie Lang · #29 03-15-2010, 12:39 AM

If it were me, I'd get a vintage 175, the ones with only one pup, the years with the p-90 preferably. You can get them for around or under $3000 and I prefer them to the newer Gibsons. But I'm not you...

One advantage is that if you decide to resell it, you shouldn't loose money, maybe even gain some. But to me, the main incentive would be that I like the sound and feel of vintage guitars.

EDIT to add: That being said, the pre-2004 165 (w/ hb pup) would be the one I'd get if I was looking for a newer guitar.

SamBooka · #30 03-15-2010, 08:21 AM

yeah.. anything pre2001 is HB. I am looking at a 96/97.
I definitely wont loose money at the price he is selling it for.
I know that a late 50s p90 is 1500 more now. In 5 years is will be 2500 more so I should act now but at my level of playing it is hard to justify.