Playing live with Band-in-a-Box question

[David Norman]

I recently began performing live w/Biab accompaniment using the Jukebox feature. I put a 10 second pause between each song and didn't have to touch my PC at all while playing. This worked great until a week ago when Jukebox began freezing up after the 2nd song causing Biab to crash.

I tried using different songs in the 2nd and 3rd song positions-Jukebox still freezes. I've talked to Biab techs, reloaded the program, etc. but problem hasnt been resolved.

So i'd like to hear from any of you performing live w/Biab about the mechanics you use in playing your song list, pausing between songs, etc. i'm now using the Song feature but this requires a lot of interaction with my PC during the performance which i would like to avoid. thanks.

[billkath]

I don't know the answer to your specific problem. However, as someone who gigs for a living, I think you are taking your musical life in your hands, gigging with a laptop (and probably not the most expensive laptop in the world). They are susceptable to crashes, glitches, power surges, sticky fingers, drunken louts-all those things.

My advice to you is to render your songs to high quality wave files, using the best samples that you have.
Then-buy a minidisk recorder. Record the wave files (either analog or digitally in) to minidisk. There's an autopause/ autocue on good minidisk players--it plays the song and stops at the end of it, cueing up to the start of the next song, ready for you just to hit play.

As a backup, you could render the wave files to DVD or CD. You could then use something like WinAmp's jukebox feature to behave like BIAB's jukebox.

Simply-using a computer program as a live tool is adding risk to your gig, and stopping and starting because of glitches not only looks unprofessional, but worries you, stopping you peerforming at your best.

[fep]

How about using an mp3 player?

[cosmic gumbo]

I hope the next time someone needs a guitar player, they get BIAB instead of hiring you. Take it one step further and become a DJ and steal all the work from real musicians.

[dwdougherty]

Having a bad day?

[David Norman]

Originally Posted by billkath

I don't know the answer to your specific problem. However, as someone who gigs for a living, I think you are taking your musical life in your hands, gigging with a laptop (and probably not the most expensive laptop in the world). They are susceptable to crashes, glitches, power surges, sticky fingers, drunken louts-all those things.

My advice to you is to render your songs to high quality wave files, using the best samples that you have.
Then-buy a minidisk recorder. Record the wave files (either analog or digitally in) to minidisk. There's an autopause/ autocue on good minidisk players--it plays the song and stops at the end of it, cueing up to the start of the next song, ready for you just to hit play.

As a backup, you could render the wave files to DVD or CD. You could then use something like WinAmp's jukebox feature to behave like BIAB's jukebox.

Simply-using a computer program as a live tool is adding risk to your gig, and stopping and starting because of glitches not only looks unprofessional, but worries you, stopping you peerforming at your best.

thanks for your suggestion-this may be a good option at this point.

[derek]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I hope the next time someone needs a guitar player, they get BIAB instead of hiring you. Take it one step further and become a DJ and steal all the work from real musicians.

Maybe a bit harsh? I have intentionally avoided using stuff like BIAB, midi or loopers, as I want to push my ability. To the OP, the downside to depending on technology, is that things that can go wrong probably will. Good luck with it.

[fep]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I hope the next time someone needs a guitar player, they get BIAB instead of hiring you. Take it one step further and become a DJ and steal all the work from real musicians.

That's ridiculous

The only time I've seen people play with backing tracks has been for the kind of gig that wouldn't hire a whole band. These were solo gigs from the get go, no one was put out of work; at least no one was put out of decent paying work.

If someone is willing to pay a decent minimum band wage of a $1,000 or more they are not going to accept someone playing along with backing tracks.

[David Norman]

Not that i have to explain but......I live in a town of 22,000. There's not an abundance of jazz players here. With Biab, even as imperfect as it is, i've got a bass player, drummer, pianist and various soloists at my disposal. they practice and play when i want them to, work cheap and gladly play the songs i choose.

I've played in a bunch of bands (not jazz) and i'm ready to do something different. My other option would be to play solo which doesn't appeal to me. I use Biab sparingly and most of the soloing is my own.

[derek]

Originally Posted by David Norman

Not that i have to explain but......I live in a town of 22,000. There's not an abundance of jazz players here. With Biab, even as imperfect as it is, i've got a bass player, drummer, pianist and various soloists at my disposal. they practice and play when i want them to, work cheap and gladly play the songs i choose.

I've played in a bunch of bands (not jazz) and i'm ready to do something different. My other option would be to play solo which doesn't appeal to me. I use Biab sparingly and most of the soloing is my own.

Yeah, but what the heck fun is that? No lateness to rehearsal and gigs, no girlfriend drama (except perhaps your own), and a serious lack of creative differences.

[JimBobWay]

Originally Posted by David Norman

Not that i have to explain but...

As long as you're out there making music, just do your thing and don't worry about what others think (except the audience..) I often use pre-recorded material presented through a variety of devices: laptop with many software options; CD player through PA or my rig; & a looper. I've never had anyone complain, but I do get questions about the sounds (all recordings of my music or public domain sounds) and/or how they are integrated into the mix. I play solo guitar 75% of the time, but I like having these other options. If they fail, I just go back to solo guitar...

[cosmic gumbo]

The value of a real musician just keeps dropping every year. People wonder why I rag about wasting time and money for performance degrees. We have met the enemy, and it is us.

[adamreir]

Your acually playing live with biab?????? What????

And you charge? People pay to hear biab?

You gotta have some serious talkinskills.

I barely practice with biab, becouse I can't stand the sound of it. Is it really that hard to fint some instrumentalists in you'r town?

Try recorded playalongs, like Jamey Aebersold.

Seriously, I would be much to embarrised to play live with baib, I think you would be much better of using recorded material.

Any instrument would be better allso. Find a rock-drummer an bass-player and convince him/her that playing jazz would be fun. Maby use a nother guitarist insted of a pianoplayer - be creative - just find somebodey to play with, thats what jazz is anyway, playing together.

Or move to a new town?

[billkath]

I barely practice with biab, becouse I can't stand the sound of it.

The sound of BIAB is ENTIRELY down to what midi device you are playing it through. If you are using Roland Sound Canvas or windows GM synth it's going to sound like crap. If you have good-even semi-professional softsynths it's going to sound MUCH better. If you are using even something like Garritans' Jazz and Big Band softsynths it's much better.

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by adamreir

I barely practice with biab, becouse I can't stand the sound of it. Is it really that hard to fint some instrumentalists in you'r town?

Try recorded playalongs, like Jamey Aebersold.

Guess you don't know about the real tracks in the 2009/2010 version do you?

[adamreir]

Originally Posted by FatJeff

Guess you don't know about the real tracks in the 2009/2010 version do you?

Now, I don't

Originally Posted by billkath

The sound of BIAB is ENTIRELY down to what midi device you are playing it through. If you are using Roland Sound Canvas or windows GM synth it's going to sound like crap. If you have good-even semi-professional softsynths it's going to sound MUCH better. If you are using even something like Garritans' Jazz and Big Band softsynths it's much better.

Ok, better sound, I'm sure I't much better then what I'm using. I'll check it out,thanks for the tips (both of you)-.

But seriously, biab live. It's programmed midi. Jazz? Live?

What happen to playing together, or even the eutentic sound of a real comp. People playing instruments.

I understand practicing with it, I understand playing for friends/Family with it, but for an audience. Jazz is about improvizing. Not programing.

If it's the last shot, no other possibilities, ok, do it. But atlest check out Aebersold. It is world class musicians playing their instruments. playing dynamic music.

And, please, try to find somebody if you are supposed to perform live. It's much better, and you'll probably learn a lot from it aswell

[FatJeff]

The 2009/2010 versions have allowed replacing the MIDI sounds with real recorded instruments. The difference is really quite amazing. I used to hate playing along with BiAB too, because I don't like the sound of MIDI, but the new real tracks really do sound great and I love playing with it now. And I would gig with it too for casual gigs (e.g. Sunday brunches, cheesy lounge happy hours, etc.) Remember that not all gigs pay enough to support 3 or more band members, and not all venues have room for more than a single person playing.

[David Norman]

Originally Posted by FatJeff

The 2009/2010 versions have allowed replacing the MIDI sounds with real recorded instruments. The difference is really quite amazing. I used to hate playing along with BiAB too, because I don't like the sound of MIDI, but the new real tracks really do sound great and I love playing with it now. And I would gig with it too for casual gigs (e.g. Sunday brunches, cheesy lounge happy hours, etc.) Remember that not all gigs pay enough to support 3 or more band members, and not all venues have room for more than a single person playing.

Ditto!!

[adamreir]

Wow, so it plays samples now? Thats great, gotta check it out.

Ok. For Gigs that aren't serious, like playing at the lokal bookstore or anything. Where it really isn't space enough. Maby it's OK. Allthoug I'd rather just play a duet with somebody, or just solo.

My piont is really that playing together, the musical relationship between the soloist, rest of the band and the audience is really a big part of the whole jazz-concept. having fellow musicians compliment you while you solo, follow you, letting the music go the direction you want it to go, practice together (4 heads really thinks better then one + computer), rescu u when your lost, someone to put you in rehab when your down and out etc.

Playing with recorded / programmed material really limits the music. I mean, If you play with a machine / recording you have to follow the band, becouse the band won't follow you.

The greate pleasure with good jazz is when you can hear a musical element travel from one instrument to another, band complimenting melody/solo, followin the soloist.

Remember, the soloist is never the only person improvising, the whole band is improvising.

If you want to play live with biab, OK. But serious, it sucks. It's a compromize a can never do, atleast not charge somebody for.

It would be like playing on a guitar without strings. Ok, you can make it an perk. instrument, but it won't be playing guitar.

[adamreir]

Just checked it out on youtube. And i agree, it doues sound great. But live?

* Hey I'm playing a liveshow today, wanna come?... Wait, i use Band in abox, thats not live is it? Eeeem, I play a deadshow tonight, wanna come?

[wizard3739]

For those of you who have not experienced BIAB 2009/2010, giving your opinion on this subject is like criticizing a book you have never read. This type of argument does not work for me. Also, many of us do not live in or near a big enough city to have access to other musicians so if we want to play, we have to do the best we can with the assets we have for our circumstance. I would love to play with a 4, 5, or whatever size music group but I guarantee, especially in this difficult economy, I would not be able to work where I live. My wife and I often work duo and trio gigs but if the gig requires dance music, BIAB makes our music more danceable. On the rare occasions when a bass player or drummer comes into our small town (very rare here), we alway try to be totally "live" with our performance. We prefer to play with other musicians but can't always find them.

wiz

[billkath]

I agree.
Lads (and lassies)--I don't know what gigs are like where you are from, or perhaps you play because you love it and would play for next to nothing? People like myself, and I dare say quite a few here, make their money from gigging-it's their job.

Even in the city, money is a problem for pubs, clubs and restaurants. There is a massive recession on, and customer numbers are down. They have budgets. They can only afford a certain amount of money for entertainment on "normal" nights.

Now-those of us who do gig are not going to go out and play for ,say, 75 or 100 bucks. The clubs can only afford, say, 300-400 tops. I wouldn't get out of bed for less than 200-0 we all have bills. So-do you go in as a trio or duo? Some do (those that have day jobs as well), but with a good backing behind you, you can do the job, entertain the crowd and make the most money as a solo act. The pubs and clubs don't care, as long as you are a brilliant entertainer and the punters are happy. The punters, in general, are not caring what bloody mode you are playing in, or any of these technical things so many here seem so obsessed with. They just care about having a great night out, a few beers, some good music and good company. We're talking about gigs-not concerts. Where there is little or no cover charge on the door, where you stand up if you can't find a seat?

Those who think "yeah-but it's too restricting, playing to backing" are just not experienced in live work. Yes, it might be, to amateurs. But to a professional-you write your backing to suit you. You write it in such a way as to make it sound live, with all the little pickups,tempo changes, medleys and bits and pieces a live band would do. You play as if you were live, and bounce off the crowd, not your bandmates. And you talk to the crowd. And you have a couple of hundred songs that you know backwards-you rehearse to make it as exciting as you can, and to make it appear live. It's your stagecraft that fools the audience. Lads-we are not talking about playing to standard midi files or boring arrangements here. It's hard work-your concentration levels and your musicianship have to be absolutely spot on-all night, every night.

We can talk about "ideal" all day long-we'd all love to be playing in our perfect band. I'd love to be playing every night with a big band. But-we have to be practical. So- When the money is there (corporate gigs etc, where we are getting paid 3-4 grand) then we put together a 5 or 6 piece band. Smaller gigs (say 900-1200)-like parties-maybe a trio. Small clubs (budget of 350-400, plus drinks)- I do a sax and guitar duo to backing tracks. And for little pubs on a tight budget- solo- to tracks. And I have to sing all the songs and do all the solos as well!!

There is only one thing that's important-that you entertain the crowd. If you don't, you are playing for yourself, and that's not a gig. It's practice, or showing off. And here, or in the UK, you'd not be asked back.

[wizard3739]

Very well stated, Bill. Your comments are the reality of many musician's approach to being a practical performer. Thank you! Also, being a musician is more than performance. IE, I must write ALL of the arrangements, intro's, endings, song selection, # of chorusus, tempo's, key centers, etc, etc...., for everything we do with BIAB. My trio does not use ANY midi tracks and the real tracks that we use are ONLY bass & drums for backup for each song. BIAB 2010 has over 7000 different styles to choose from so we have a lot of variety in our song choices. Usually, after the crowd thins out, we are free to play a more intimate approach to our music and we shut the computer off and just play for our own pleasure.

wiz

[NSJ]

I think of the issue as playing LIVE in real time in a SOLO setting, and configuring your set up accordingly. In a non-jazz setting, Robert Fripp has been the master of this with his "Frippertronics" and "Soundscapes".

In a jazz setting, a world class trombonist recently noted that he has started using a loop pedal and laptop setup, and he is really excited by this.

BIAB? Meh. Cheesy, cheesy, cheesy! You can do much better. There is some really cool stuff out there, in terms of rig configuration, that will allow you to play live, in real time, creatively, with enhanced sounds. I have a MacBook Pro and something called MainStage Live. Which takes some time to get used to and learn. I'm gonna try to master it as one of my goals for 2010.

Not nearly as complicated as Fripp's setup, which includes MIDI pickups, the totality of which he calls "The Solar Voyager".

[billkath]

The way I use BIAB is-it lets you put in your basic chord progressions very easily, and gives you a head start. From there-I bring it into my sequencer (Sonar) and start adapting it-changing basslines, adding in drum fills and ghost notes, swapping in drum patterns etc. I then use really good samples of the instruments-great brush and jazz drums, upright basses and a really classy jazz upright piano, and mix down to a stereo wave. I then master the wave file, so that all backing tracks will have the same average volumes and the same EQ curve etc-so it sounds like it was all recorded by one band, in one room. That is SO much quicker than sequencing a backing track from scratch. When I'm doing a solo or duo (sax and guitar) gig I use Bass, Drums and piano as our backing. No strings, no solo pianos, brass bits or rhythm guitar etc-as simple as can be. That way, we stay true to ourselves, I feel-we're doing all the stuff that should be done by us.
So-is it as good as a live band? No-of course not. But it is acceptable for around the pubs and clubs. We want people to go home saying-"What a good Sax or Guitarist" or "Jeez, I loved those songs- brought me right back", not even THINKING about what the backing tracks added.

Of course-you'll always get the odd muso, asking about what you are using. If the tracks are good enough, they'll be looking to do it themselves, as they know what the score is. 99% of them say "Man-it really freed you up to play, didn't it?"
Play with bad tracks, however, and they'll be telling you what you SHOULD be using. And that means you were crap.

[cosmic gumbo]

I've got one word for this crap. KARAOKE. 'Nuff said.

[derek]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I've got one word for this crap. KARAOKE. 'Nuff said.

Again, judgemental and harsh. You can't envision a situation where in a small town there just AREN'T any other jazz musos to play with, but you need danceable music? I think we all agree that playing with others is way better, but you are limiting the possibilities, and as a muso in a small community, you need to grab every opportunity you can.

I choose not to play with any assistance, but I am just sonic wallpaper for people to eat over most of the time. If I were in a small town and need to pull off dance music, I would certainly be tempted to do the above, but at that point it is not jazz. I think we could all agree on that also. Whatever we need to do to get the gig done and earn the $.

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I've got one word for this crap. KARAOKE. 'Nuff said.

So, your word is final and nonnegotiable. I guess none of the rest of us know jack sh*t.

[billkath]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I've got one word for this crap. KARAOKE. 'Nuff said.

Nonsense, Oh Cosmic one. It's no more Kareoke than tapping your foot to keep in time. You might not have noticed, but this is 2010. Why not use the tools that are available today to express yourself? If we were to go with your premise, nobody would be using an electronic keyboard to play vibes in a show. We wouldn't be using reverb or chorus on our guitar amps, to enhance the sound. It's just an extension.

CAN it be Kareoke? That'll all be down to the quality of the musicians, and to the quality of the backing. Playing note for note what Wes plays for that song, or putting on Satchmo's voice when singing Hello Dolly-that's Kareoke. Whether you have a backing track or not.
I'd rather listen to a solo clarinet guy playing with tracks, and playing his own arrangements, originally, than hear a full band, playing Glen Miller music note for note as Glen arranged, or some guy playing Autumn Leaves exactly like Joe Pass.

I think that far worse than playing over a backing track is this idea of "Well, the chord progression is blah, blah, blah so you should be using blah mode, then switch to blah melodic minor and then blah arpeggio blah ,blah, blah". Where's the innovation in that? Turning out clones, is what it is. Stifling, is what it is.

Theory is all well and good, and hugely important in getting to a certain stage, but it has the tendency to get in the way of innovation and individual expression, which is what all music should be about. Even Jazz.

[cosmic gumbo]

Virtual jazz. Yippee.