Playing live with Band-in-a-Box question

[billkath]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

Virtual jazz. Yippee.

[adamreir]

Don't have time to read everything right now. So ok, it sound much better, but still it isn't "live", you'r not playing with real musicions. I agree, Karaoke is a good term for playing live with a recording or whatever: Jazzkaraoke.

From a musical perspective it's like playing football in a weelchair.

From a working 'I have to earn money' perspective, i gess its ok. You'r arguments for using biab box live are all about earning money,and not having anybody to play with. OK, but playing with biab is not good, what every you'r arguments are.

Jazz is not about making money, Jazz is not about making the audiences dance (so that you can earn money). Jazz is about the music, improvisation, playing, playing together.

Biab is not Jazz, it imitates jazz, nothing more.

I agree, virtual jazz, that's is.

Ok use it live, earn you'r money, I see you'r point. But musically, nono.

[derek]

Originally Posted by adamreir

Don't have time to read everything right now. So ok, it sound much better, but still it isn't "live", you'r not playing with real musicions. I agree, Karaoke is a good term for playing live with a recording or whatever: Jazzkaraoke.

From a musical perspective it's like playing football in a weelchair.

From a working 'I have to earn money' perspective, i gess its ok. You'r arguments for using biab box live are all about earning money,and not having anybody to play with. OK, but playing with biab is not good, what every you'r arguments are.

Jazz is not about making money, Jazz is not about making the audiences dance (so that you can earn money). Jazz is about the music, improvisation, playing, playing together.

Biab is not Jazz, it imitates jazz, nothing more.

I agree, virtual jazz, that's is.

Ok use it live, earn you'r money, I see you'r point. But musically, nono.

Jazz is not about making money? Better tell that to the host of players and singers who are trying to make a living doing it. If you are a full time jazz muso, then it is about making money.

The ideals of jazz are lofty, quite admirable, and worthy of pursuit, but you gotta eat.

[fep]

Interesting posts...

Some are being practical and are in favor of BIAB.

Others are being idealistic and are against BIAB.

It's easy to be idealistic if your a big name jazz performer in a good market.

It's also easy to be idealistic if you don't gig at all or you make very little performing jazz and don't depend on the money.

To those of you (CosmicGumbo, Adamrier) that are being idealistic and holding out for the art of jazz, how about posting some of your music so we can have a listen.

[dwdougherty]

Furthermore, if I only had two choices: (1) play jazz using BiaB for an audience; (2) don't play because I'm holding out to play with a group; I'd have to choose (1). I'd rather play than not play.

Which action does more harm to the future of jazz? I'd rather get out there and let people hear jazz (in any context) rather than continue to let my beloved art form wither and die because it's no longer in the mindset of listeners.

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by fep

Interesting posts...

Some are being practical and are in favor of BIAB.

Others are being idealistic and are against BIAB.

It's easy to be idealistic if your a big name jazz performer in a good market.

It's also easy to be idealistic if you don't gig at all or you make very little performing jazz and don't depend on the money.

To those of you that are being idealistic and holding out for the art of jazz, how about posting some of your music/art so we can have a listen.

An interesting challenge, and I'm curious to see if you have any takers.

My main beef in this thread is with guys who post from their lofty silver thrones and claim that anything that doens't fit their narrowly defined criteria for "what is proper jazz" is to be cast aside without so much as a listen. What arrogance. Any musician who is making a living playing this kind of music - whether they're doing it solo, with some kind of accompanying system, or in a 17-piece big band - is to be commended. They're living it, instead of bashing it from the sidelines. And as long as their audiences are enjoying the fruits of their labor, isn't that kind of the whole point?

I'll tell you what the point is not: it's not about pleasing the jazz purists with every song. 99% of the people who would go hear this particular kind of playing are eating their jazz brunches with their girlfriends and wives, getting faced on Ramos Fizzes...they don't give a rat's a$$ if the nice sounds coming from the stage are generated by machines, or recordings of real musicians, or actual musicians playing live. They just want to hear some melodic jazz, and then go home and take a nap.

If you took this kind of logic to its extreme, one would expect that the same posters would decry the use of amplification for jazz guitars. Or any kind of effects processing, like chorus or reverb or pre-amp devices. Hey, that's not the sound of a REAL LIVE MUSICIAN! That's a Roland pedal doing all that!

Anyway, BiAB is about as good as it gets for accompanying as far as I'm concerned. And this includes the Aebersold material, much of which is crap IMNSHO, as well as playing with actual so-so musicians. And just because you heard BiAB 3 years ago played through some crummy PC speakers doesn't mean that you know what it sounds like now. Once again I encourage those who dismiss BiAB to give it a listen with the RealTracks. They're really quite good.

[David Norman]

Originally Posted by FatJeff

An interesting challenge, and I'm curious to see if you have any takers.

My main beef in this thread is with guys who post from their lofty silver thrones and claim that anything that doens't fit their narrowly defined criteria for "what is proper jazz" is to be cast aside without so much as a listen. What arrogance. Any musician who is making a living playing this kind of music - whether they're doing it solo, with some kind of accompanying system, or in a 17-piece big band - is to be commended. They're living it, instead of bashing it from the sidelines. And as long as their audiences are enjoying the fruits of their labor, isn't that kind of the whole point?

I'll tell you what the point is not: it's not about pleasing the jazz purists with every song. 99% of the people who would go hear this particular kind of playing are eating their jazz brunches with their girlfriends and wives, getting faced on Ramos Fizzes...they don't give a rat's a$$ if the nice sounds coming from the stage are generated by machines, or recordings of real musicians, or actual musicians playing live. They just want to hear some melodic jazz, and then go home and take a nap.

If you took this kind of logic to its extreme, one would expect that the same posters would decry the use of amplification for jazz guitars. Or any kind of effects processing, like chorus or reverb or pre-amp devices. Hey, that's not the sound of a REAL LIVE MUSICIAN! That's a Roland pedal doing all that!

Anyway, BiAB is about as good as it gets for accompanying as far as I'm concerned. And this includes the Aebersold material, much of which is crap IMNSHO, as well as playing with actual so-so musicians. And just because you heard BiAB 3 years ago played through some crummy PC speakers doesn't mean that you know what it sounds like now. Once again I encourage those who dismiss BiAB to give it a listen with the RealTracks. They're really quite good.

I agree wholeheartedly. I just retired and am looking to stay busy playing locally-restaurants mostly. I'm learnings tunes that for the most part will be at least somewhat familiar to the folks i play for. Hopefully, i'll be creative enough to make them good solid tunes that i enjoy also.

The Aebersold tracks are fixed arrangements-with Biab i can determine length, key and add a RealTrack solo or 2 if i feel it's needed. Can also program in shots, rests, key changes, etc.

Also, thanks to BillKath for suggesting i give up Biab for playback. I converted all my Biab backing tracks to WAV files and am using Window Media Player to play them. When you convert files to WAV files from Biab, it allows you to put a pause in the front and back of songs so i've got a 5 second space to catch a breath. So far, this setup is working fine. I tried to attach a couple of the backing tracks i created for the Biab haters to enjoy but this forum doesn't allow attaching WAV files.

Thanks to everyone for your input.

[cosmic gumbo]

I don't like my jazz played by a machine, so I guess I'm impractical and a lofty idealistic snob. Who woulda thunk it? I blame it on my days as a union musician when we tried to promote performing music as a professional skill that should be respected. I need to get with the times.

[Squint]

Of course, you could always do what my personal guitar hero Bill Nelson does and play, produce and record all of your backing tracks yourself.

A bit time consuming, not to mention the requirement of proficiency on several instruments, (In Bill's case, drums, keys, marimbas, horns, bass, guitars, etc...),but the effect is mesmerizing and always entertaining!

It's just another way of getting your music out there when you don't have access to a real band. Which Bill has also done ever since leading Be Bop Deluxe back in the day, whenever he can afford to...

[billkath]

Originally Posted by Squint

Of course, you could always do what my personal guitar hero Bill Nelson does and play, produce and record all of your backing tracks yourself.

A bit time consuming, not to mention the requirement of proficiency on several instruments, (In Bill's case, drums, keys, marimbas, horns, bass, guitars, etc...),but the effect is mesmerizing and always entertaining!

It's just another way of getting your music out there when you don't have access to a real band. Which Bill has also done ever since leading Be Bop Deluxe back in the day, whenever he can afford to...

It's a fine line, these days, recording. Most of the records in the charts for the last decade have all been "Pro Tooled" to some extent-timing of drums tightened with Beat Detective, keyboard players MIDI'd in and quantized or Humanized, Guitarists looped, sliced and diced etc. Is it live or is it Memorex.
My view is that this is something that the producers WANT us Engineers to do-to get that "perfect" take, but with an eye on the clock. They know well what we are able to do.

But-that's recording. Live work is different. Or was, till the 80's, when a huge number of bands started using sequenced stuff, blending in with their live stuff-the Who comes to mind. Nowadays, I'd venture that "most" of the top performers in the pop and country fields use sequences with their live stuff. The rationale is that people are paying a lot of money to see them and want/deserve to hear exactly what was on the record. Madness, eh? Of course-a lot of the Rock guys don't, but some do. For Jazz , Blues and Big Band? It's unheard of, of course. And it's nothing to do with being snobbish, it's because the Jazz culture is to play live, so they can go where they want to go, musically.
You can't do that, to a large extent, with sequences. Sure, you can change your solos, but you can't modulate off the cuff, so to speak.

However-I still believe it's a valid way to go, when money and musicians are tight.

[guitaradelic]

Ok, just my two cents, I am probably just a purist, but I don't see Joe Pass using BIAB. Where do we draw the line as musicians? I have to agree with the notion it is glorified karaoke with a guitar. Use to be alot more place to play before that crap became acceptable. You are cutting your own throat. To the argument that someone wouldn't pay enough for a full band, it's because they know they don't have to. Just my opinion based on my observations from 40 years of playing live (with bands and solo).

[NSJ]

If you're gonna play solo, play solo. Sure, you can augment your sound with a proper rig--look at the way Frisell, for example, uses loops, pedals and various effects. But it's all done live, to enhance his broad tonal palette. I've even thought of bringing other acoustic instruments, like a harmonium and various percussion pieces, playing them live, setting up loops, etc. All done live. But canned BIAB? C'mon, we can do better than this!!

Do people tend to forget that the guitar is itself a miniature, self-contained orchestra?? What great possibilities in couterpoint we have on our instrument, how we can comp for ourselves, create our own bass lines as we blow, etc.

However, the best way to avail of these possibilities is to fully develop a right hand without a pick, to really really develop the p-i-m-a thing.

[mr. beaumont]

couldn't agree more.

people get so hung up on playing single notes, they forget what the guitar is capable of.

but i also don't hold anything against folks who gig with backing tracks. the job is to be entertaining, and most people aren't going to care at all.

[Bill C]

I don't want to appear contrary but I tend to the "no BIAB" viewpoint. If I went into a bar and heard a musician playing with backing tracks I would be irritated and think "why the smoke and mirrors, why can't (s)he play solo?" But as a guitar player I'm not the average customer I guess - I'm not interested in being entertained.

[Squint]

If you're going to play with backing tracks, then at least record your own for some claim of originality. But there is nothing more exciting than when a group of tight jazzers get into a groove and just play the crap out of their improvising little souls! You can't get that with backing tracks, but you can be entertaining like at a wedding, or such. What little I've learned about Jazz is that its improvisational fluidity is an integral part of the whole experience. While I can see both sides of the issue, I have to agree with the purists here that Jazz be kept as "real" as possible. BIAB might come in handy for your cousin's wedding, but it falls flat for that true Jazz experience. Now, for Pop or Country, I would have no problem with it at all. When I played live acoustic pop gigs I would do some numbers with a drum machine and would almost always do some improvisation with a rhythm pattern I had not used before, just to keep it interesting. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. Either way, it kept people awake... but that was pop. I dont think most people would like canned Jazz, but if you're in a small town like I'm originally from, I guess you gotta do whatcha gotta do... just try to do it yourself when you can.

[adamreir]

This discussion is getting way out of control, right now you're putting so many words in my moth I don't know where to begin. Chill out, some of us are trying to have a mature discussion, understanding that others have other opinion then themself....

Actually, I'll start quoting myself:

If it's the last shot, no other possibilities, ok, do it.

Ok. For Gigs that aren't serious, like playing at the lokal bookstore or anything. Where it really isn't space enough. Maby it's OK. Allthoug I'd rather just play a duet with somebody, or just solo.

From a working 'I have to earn money' perspective, i gess its ok. You'r arguments for using biab box live are all about earning money,and not having anybody to play with. OK,

Ok use it live, earn you'r money, I see you'r point. But musically, nono.

I Also got a bit chocked at first and posted stuff like:

Your acually playing live with biab?????? What????

From a musical perspective it's like playing football in a weelchair.

I agree, Karaoke is a good term for playing live with a recording or whatever: Jazzkaraoke.

Which is my opinion about playing with recorded/programmed matherial.

I don't post over-sensitive out of topic posts like:

Those who think "yeah-but it's too restricting, playing to backing" are just not experienced in live work. Yes, it might be, to amateurs.

My main beef in this thread is with guys who post from their lofty silver thrones and claim that anything that doens't fit their narrowly defined criteria for "what is proper jazz" is to be cast aside without so much as a listen. What arrogance.

I'll tell you what the point is not: it's not about pleasing the jazz purists with every song.

If you took this kind of logic to its extreme, one would expect that the same posters would decry the use of amplification for jazz guitars. Or any kind of effects processing, like chorus or reverb or pre-amp devices. Hey, that's not the sound of a REAL LIVE MUSICIAN! That's a Roland pedal doing all that!

(nobody said anything like that, you're totally missing the point)

--------

No, I'm not a very experienced live player, or jazz player at all.I've been playing jazz for like 4 years, and have never charged anybody for a live show (only some compozing stuff, not jazz).

My point is that playing with real musicians (at an ok or higher level), is much better, becouse of the impulsive / improvisation point of view, and that you're arrangmets isn't limited to a series of presets / records. I think you should have changing soloist (unless you're a singer, then you don't need to).

I have played with recorded (not live) and real life music, and playing wih other musucians is really a huge lift. What if you suddenly want to turn up the intensity, play really soft during a solo?

Anybody ever heard about increasing the intensity during a solo?

And, let me quote myself again, If BIAB is you're last option, do it. I'm not saying that you should go die if you do so, or that you're killing jazz or anything.

What I AM saying is that there really isn't any musically reason to do this. The music gets wors with BIAB, becous your missing a imporatnt part of the improvizing part of jazz: The rest of the band.

Remember how jazz was born? A bunch of instrumentalists improvizing together at the same time. New Orleans Jazz.

-----

99% of the people who would go hear this particular kind of playing are eating their jazz brunches with their girlfriends and wives, getting faced on Ramos Fizzes...

Em,what I said was if you play at you're local book store or whatever, I guess it's OK. If you're playing for an audience who are actually listening to the music, I'd be surprised if you didn't get bood of stages.

Anybody dissagreing that plaing with live musicians is better than playing with BIAB. It's a huuge compromise that just makes the music much worse.

And jeah, playing with backing track and thinking that nobody cares after 2 hours would be naive.A guess i bunch of people would think (why is he using backing)

Sorry, I mean this. Live with it. Please, no personal attacs. Lets have a grown up discussion.

[adamreir]

Btw.

you're "challange"

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/showc...html#post70102

Didn't say I was a great. But I am a great listener

[oilywrag]

No wonder people want to play with BiaB Live.If one takes a step back and looks at some of the arrorgance and attitude shown by fellow musicians to other musicians,At least BiaB doesnt get drunk,argue,throw a tantrum when all is not going well with there own playing.Plus it can play in time all day long with out missing a beat.The technology in music arguement can be used in a lot of other aspects of daily living,not just jazz.Some times we are all guilty of not being able to see the wood for the trees.At the end of the day music is enjoyable and if you dont enjoy it dont do it

Cheers Tom

[cosmic gumbo]

Instead of band-in-a-box, I'm learning how to cut my own rubber belts to program tunes to play with a Jack-in-a Box, because it's acoustic. So far I've got ones to play the acompaniment to Impressions and So What. I was thinking of putting a little Miles puppet to jump out of the lid, so I guess it's really a Miles-in-a-box. That's pure entertaining goodness.

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

Instead of band-in-a-box, I'm learning how to cut my own rubber belts to program tunes to play with a Jack-in-a Box, because it's acoustic. So far I've got ones to play the acompaniment to Impressions and So What. I was thinking of putting a little Miles puppet to jump out of the lid, so I guess it's really a Miles-in-a-box. That's pure entertaining goodness.

Pfft, rubber belts? You should be weaving your own belts out of reeds that you have picked yourself. Now that would be acceptable.

[derek]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

Instead of band-in-a-box, I'm learning how to cut my own rubber belts to program tunes to play with a Jack-in-a Box, because it's acoustic. So far I've got ones to play the acompaniment to Impressions and So What. I was thinking of putting a little Miles puppet to jump out of the lid, so I guess it's really a Miles-in-a-box. That's pure entertaining goodness.

You really need to look into Pat Metheny's new project Orchestrion. He is using servos with acoustic instruments. I think less maintenance and set up time with servos vs. rubber belts. However, the Miles popup puppet is a nice touch. YMMV

[Reg]

Originally Posted by derek

Again, judgemental and harsh. You can't envision a situation where in a small town there just AREN'T any other jazz musos to play with, but you need danceable music? I think we all agree that playing with others is way better, but you are limiting the possibilities, and as a muso in a small community, you need to grab every opportunity you can.

I choose not to play with any assistance, but I am just sonic wallpaper for people to eat over most of the time. If I were in a small town and need to pull off dance music, I would certainly be tempted to do the above, but at that point it is not jazz. I think we could all agree on that also. Whatever we need to do to get the gig done and earn the $.

Nice post Derek...Reg

[Reg]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

Instead of band-in-a-box, I'm learning how to cut my own rubber belts to program tunes to play with a Jack-in-a Box, because it's acoustic. So far I've got ones to play the acompaniment to Impressions and So What. I was thinking of putting a little Miles puppet to jump out of the lid, so I guess it's really a Miles-in-a-box. That's pure entertaining goodness.

WOW I almost fell out of my seat... that was good entertainment... cosmic gumbo... you have away with words, I appreciate your humor.
The only point I would add is that we, as jazz performers are the public's educators as to what jazz is. There is very little patronage and there not going to get much from mass media. Doesn't create enough momentary interest which will translate into profit...yada yada. I have posted some of my live playing and will do so again. I don't use extra toys, besides my toy guitar and amp etc... and don't have any problems with those who do. I gig almost every night and try to evangelize jazz to as many as I'm able. I get feed back all the time from audiences... I'm not sure how they would react to myself and a box... anyway if you need a box, use it. Best Reg

[Squint]

tried squirrels in a box once, but they just couldn't keep a decent rhythm and they got real quiet and smelly after a few days, but GREAT squealing feedback!... LOL!