Amp volume vs guitar volume--the proper balance?

NSJ · #1 01-02-2010, 09:25 AM

Lately, I've been taking nearly all the volume off the guitar and increasing the amp volume setting. I realize that it may create greater noise with regard to the amp, but I've found that I really dig the overall sound more--fuller, cleaner, rounder, sweeter are the inadequate words I would use. And it's not as loud/distorted/muddy. Anybody know the technical reasons why this maybe so?

What is the overall practice? I tend to think that in the rock world, one increases the volume on the guitar and limits it on the amp. Maybe I'm wrong in this (I've never really played rock guitar, so I apologize).

SamBooka · #2 01-02-2010, 09:51 AM

There are guys who never touch the volume control.. mostly rock players.

There are guys who keep the volume at 2/3 and crank the amp. At 2/3 it is still clean. When they want to drive for a solo the turn up the volume. Again, mostly rock players.

I roll back my volume more as a tone control than a volume. The volume does drop but so does the highend. My real tone control is more like a Mid/Treble rolloff.

If you are running humbuckers into a tube amp you are probably going to want to play with the tone, especially if you are running into a fender style amp.

mongrel · #3 01-02-2010, 06:26 PM

Volume pedal.

Jake Hanlon · #4 01-02-2010, 06:50 PM

I leave my Guitar vol somewhere between 5 and 7 and the amp lower then that. More signal comes through I believe the more you open up your guitar, who knows I'm not a gear head buy.

I only change my volume depending on the room. Technique solves most other issues in that regard.

randyc · #5 01-02-2010, 07:07 PM

I'll take a crack at this although we may not know any more about the subject after I'm finished babbling:

The architecture of any audio amplifier is fairly strict, the chain is a compromise between noise and linearity; the gain distribution throughout the chain optimizes the two parameters. Noise considerations ALWAYS places the volume and EQ adjustments AFTER the preamplifier. This is because any loss in the chain = noise. The more gain one can place before a lossy network, the less noise contribution. (The tradeoff is, of course linearity - too much gain will tend to overdrive the following stage, even a slight amount may be noticeable.)

The noise thing is equally true when considering the guitar pickup/volume/EQ circuits. As NSJ pointed out, rolling off the guitar volume will produce an increase in overall noise. But the tradeoff is that the amplifier gain can be increased (you actually need to think of it as REDUCING the LOSS in the volume control circuit), so the amplifier noise is decreased. Whether the two noise components cancel is a function of the preamplifier gain and noise figure, in other words, we don't know - inadequate information.

Because the guitar volume control is rolled off, the guitar impedance is lower and also more resistive (as opposed to being largely inductive due to the inductive nature of the pickup coils). The lower impedance means that the guitar cable has less effect on the attenuation of the higher frequency components that the guitar produces. The overall frequency response is enhanced and the amplifier EQ may be slightly more effective as well.

The best EQ is one that has a flat input signal to work with, and can then be adjusted to the user's taste. If the input signal is already degraded in frequency response, it's not practical to expect the EQ to put back in the missing parts of the "voice" of the instrument.

Any clearer or more confusing ?

SamBooka · #6 01-02-2010, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake Hanlon

who knows I'm not a gear head buy.

Jumpin Geezush fer a second der I thoughts you wuz a Caper wha?!

NSJ · #7 01-02-2010, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randyc

I'll take a crack at this although we may not know any more about the subject after I'm finished babbling:

The architecture of any audio amplifier is fairly strict, the chain is a compromise between noise and linearity; the gain distribution throughout the chain optimizes the two parameters. Noise considerations ALWAYS places the volume and EQ adjustments AFTER the preamplifier. This is because any loss in the chain = noise. The more gain one can place before a lossy network, the less noise contribution. (The tradeoff is, of course linearity - too much gain will tend to overdrive the following stage, even a slight amount may be noticeable.)

The noise thing is equally true when considering the guitar pickup/volume/EQ circuits. As NSJ pointed out, rolling off the guitar volume will produce an increase in overall noise. But the tradeoff is that the amplifier gain can be increased (you actually need to think of it as REDUCING the LOSS in the volume control circuit), so the amplifier noise is decreased. Whether the two noise components cancel is a function of the preamplifier gain and noise figure, in other words, we don't know - inadequate information.

Because the guitar volume control is rolled off, the guitar impedance is lower and also more resistive (as opposed to being largely inductive due to the inductive nature of the pickup coils). The lower impedance means that the guitar cable has less effect on the attenuation of the higher frequency components that the guitar produces. The overall frequency response is enhanced and the amplifier EQ may be slightly more effective as well.

The best EQ is one that has a flat input signal to work with, and can then be adjusted to the user's taste. If the input signal is already degraded in frequency response, it's not practical to expect the EQ to put back in the missing parts of the "voice" of the instrument.

Any clearer or more confusing ?

So, the way I see it, if I roll down the guitar volume, I am able to more fully access/utilize the amp processing of the signal. Send less through put, but the amp is able to do more withe the throughput.

In any event, the signal hiss is apparent but acceptable/manageable, and what I get is better tone overall (IMHO). Right now, I'm playing a Tele into a Fender Twin 'Verb. if the zero or no volume setting on the guitar is high noon, I have the volume on the guitar at about 2 o'clock (I think)--enough to be discretely discernible. The volume on the amp (Vibrato channel) is 5.

Thanks for the explanation. I shall further digest and grok it. Cheers!

randyc · #8 01-02-2010, 10:39 PM

You've grokked fully as evidenced by your elegantly simple summary (shame on me for not doing the same)

Happy New Cheers !

asedas · #9 01-03-2010, 05:09 AM

I like the real sound of my guitar. That's why I always try to get volume on guitar +/- 100%. After that you can mix the voice in the amp - will have strong and real signal from guitar. Your guitar. But when I need some sound modifications I turn down volume on guitar and change sound on amp.

The proportion depends on effect [sound] what you want to hear.

P.J. · #10 01-03-2010, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NSJ

Lately, I've been taking nearly all the volume off the guitar and increasing the amp volume setting. I realize that it may create greater noise with regard to the amp, but I've found that I really dig the overall sound more--fuller, cleaner, rounder, sweeter are the inadequate words I would use. And it's not as loud/distorted/muddy. Anybody know the technical reasons why this maybe so?

What is the overall practice? I tend to think that in the rock world, one increases the volume on the guitar and limits it on the amp. Maybe I'm wrong in this (I've never really played rock guitar, so I apologize).

I almost always play w/ the guitar volume all the way up and adjust the volume on the amp and w/ an attenuator sometimes. If I need the guitar quieter I use a Morley vol. pedal. The only time I really adjust the volume from the guitar is if I am playing really saturated, distorted stuff and then adjusting the guitar's volume can make a significant timbrel difference, especially w/ humbuckers.

=-) PJ

mr. beaumont · #11 01-03-2010, 11:45 AM

really depends on the guitar for me. my teles--more amp, run the volume about 70%. rolling off the volume on my tele sweetens up the highs a little (rolls 'em off a bit) without touching the tone control, which is a little more finicky.

on the godin, i like the volume up near full, unless i'm in a really small room and i want some acoustic sound to be heard to...funny, i really find myslf playing quieter in general with the godin, which i think is a good thing.

SamBooka · #12 01-03-2010, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

really depends on the guitar for me. my teles--more amp, run the volume about 70%. rolling off the volume on my tele sweetens up the highs a little (rolls 'em off a bit) without touching the tone control, which is a little more finicky.

on the godin, i like the volume up near full, unless i'm in a really small room and i want some acoustic sound to be heard too.

zactly.. volume as a tone control works especially well with fender tele/strat neck pickups

on a p90 it a) doesnt have as much high-end (chime)like a fender and b) is "usually" chosen for its bark that drives the first amp stage a little;it doesnt take to rolling off as well.

i have a 72 gibson HB that doesnt respond well using the volume as a tone control but crank the amp and it LOVES the volume as a overdrive control.

NOTE: These are my observations with fender tube amps. I cant really comment on SSs. Of course this is all subjective, whatever floats your boat is alright.

TK_AK · #13 01-03-2010, 12:37 PM

On PRSs the volume has a high impact on the tone, especially when you switch from 8 to 10 (max).

whippersnapper · #14 01-03-2010, 03:31 PM

Wow I've never thought to play with the volume much but it really seems to make a huge difference on Fenders! Sounds a lot more Ed Bickert....

FWBO · #15 01-03-2010, 05:36 PM

Strat with Cube 60 - tweed setting - volume adjusted to 50% on guitar, gain set on amp so that 50% on guitar is just clean for chords. Master to suit. This gives me a really thick sound from the strat but still with beautiful definition. I can't believe I used to love the JC setting!

Also have the pickups dropped level with the pickguard to reduce output.

Errant noise from amp is negligible.

hot ford coupe · #16 01-03-2010, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NSJ

Lately, I've been taking nearly all the volume off the guitar and increasing the amp volume setting. I realize that it may create greater noise with regard to the amp, but I've found that I really dig the overall sound more--fuller, cleaner, rounder, sweeter are the inadequate words I would use. And it's not as loud/distorted/muddy. Anybody know the technical reasons why this maybe so?

What is the overall practice? I tend to think that in the rock world, one increases the volume on the guitar and limits it on the amp. Maybe I'm wrong in this (I've never really played rock guitar, so I apologize).

I tried this on a gig tonight and it worked great. I'm using an old Dearmond Rhythm Chief 1100 and the adjustment did the same thing for me as far as the sound is concerned. Thanks for the advice.

NSJ · #17 01-03-2010, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hot ford coupe

I tried this on a gig tonight and it worked great. I'm using an old Dearmond Rhythm Chief 1100 and the adjustment did the same thing for me as far as the sound is concerned. Thanks for the advice.

That's awesome, no worries! Glad to hear it.