flatwounds on a selmac

**tejastani** · 11-21-2009, 09:31 AM

I've had a Gitane DG-250 gypsy jazz guitar on loan from a friend with too many guitars (imagine that) and have been unsure what to do with it. its dynamic range is ridiculously huge, but it has always been hard to control, it's an unruly beast. I don't really play Django-style, but play some country blues, bottleneck, and Western swing. The guitar has always been too much-- booming bass, piercing treble, lots of rattles and growls. Last week I opened a set of D'Addarrio Chromes to put on an hardtail Bullet strat when I discovered that one of the bridge saddles had broken. I thought Oh crap-- these strings will go off since I opened the sealed plastic package. I put them in a ziplock bag where they sat till this morning when I thought of trying them out on the Gitane. The flatwound strings seemed to have tamed the beast! I can still dig in hard with the plectrum and get a great big sound, but the tone is evened out and darker. When the chromes wear down, I want to try some TI flats. Now for a pickup--maybe Shadow Nanomag?

**Stackabones** · 11-21-2009, 03:59 PM

Interesting idea. Any clips?

I think I'm like you in that I play just about everything but gypsy jazz on mine, though I really enjoy the aggressive, wild & unruly sound of my Gitane D500 (it's my main gighorse). Sometimes it is a bit too much when I'm singing and I really have to reign it in, but I like your idea a lot.

What gauge did you use with the Chromes? Most of these selmacs are built for light strings (10s for the petite bouche, 11s for the grande bouce).

**tejastani** · 11-21-2009, 06:03 PM

The chromes are 11s. The tension may be a bit higher than the Gitane loop-end strings that I had before, but there is no deflection in the monster neck, and the soundboard is lightly loaded with the slight break angle at the bridge.
However, the long scale makes the action as stiff as 13s would be on a Gibson scale guitar.

**mr. beaumont** · 11-22-2009, 11:32 AM

i have flats sitting on my grande bouche style guitar right now. Got tired of them after a while--they're probably coming off this afternoon...love the feel, but lost all the fun acoustic sound to my ears.

I'll stick with flats on my electrics, though.

and oh, stackabones, if you believe their packaging, a set of .11's in d'addairos gypsy jazz string line has more tension than a set of .11 gauge chromes. I wonder if that holds true for other GJ string brands?

**Stackabones** · 11-22-2009, 06:11 PM

I use Argentines, but I'm not sure of the tension.

**Hoopskidoodle** · 11-14-2010, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by tejastani

The flatwound strings seemed to have tamed the beast! I can still dig in hard with the plectrum and get a great big sound, but the tone is evened out and darker. When the chromes wear down, I want to try some TI flats.

I just ordered a petite-bouche Gypsy Jazz guitar, and I happened to have a set of Thomastik Jazz Swing 10s sitting around (I've moved on to much thicker flatwounds on my archtops.) So, while I'm waiting for the Lenzner Fisoma strings that I ordered, which are on out of stock, I'm going to give the Thomastiks a day in court.

Thanks for the idea.

**Sacco** · 03-24-2018, 09:39 AM

I'm resurrecting this thread right here.

I just recorded a cover from Wrap your troubles in dreams as recorded by Howard Alden for Sweet and Lowdown.

After recording and comparing i discovered immediately he was using flatwound strings on a Maccaferri model.

So, I've installed some Pyramid 11-48 on my DG300. The sound is 1 to 1 to Howard.

The overall tension (I looked in the charts) compared to argentine 11s is a bit less, just a tad bit....good cause I was worried about putting too much tension on the neck.

There you go, if you wanna try. I love them, no more string squeak and the recordings come up much cleaner.

**neatomic** · 03-24-2018, 03:34 PM

^ interesting...

cheers

**christianm77** · 03-25-2018, 07:08 AM

Basically the Gypsy jazz purists will come after you in the night. They will then bore you to death.

It’s a horrible fate, so be a good boy and use Argentines.

**Sacco** · 03-25-2018, 07:30 AM

HAhahah!!

I know....this is the second time I try flats on my Selmac. First time I was eaten alive in another forum and I finally decided to go back to roundwound, also out of fear of breaking something due to the tension.

This time I'm 100% sure I want flatwounds, and I'm also 100% sure Howard Alden used those and that's the sound I'm after.

BTW: This time around I went from fresh Argentines (only a couple weeks old, not played much), they were still bright, to the flatwounds and paid attention to the change of tone and the flatwounds aren't really dead compared to roundwound. Not really something significant.

**dhd** · 03-25-2018, 08:56 AM

I was using D'Addario Chromes (.010/.047) and (.011/.050) on my flat top acoustic guitars and recently found
these Galli 80/20 Bronze Jazz Flats, and have been using the Extra Lights (AJF1047).
The Galli 80/20 Bronze have a different tone than the D'Addario Chromes and the Galli are more flexible and easier to play too.
Tension values are obviously less with the Galli and I contacted them requesting their tension values,
but have not heard back from them yet.

Those Pyramid flat wounds sound interesting,
is it the Pyramid Gold Pure Nickel Round Core Flat Wounds ?

flatwounds on a selmac-c0gjmp3-jpg

**Sacco** · 03-25-2018, 09:10 AM

is it the Pyramid Gold Pure Nickel Round Core Flat Wounds ?

Yes exactly those.

Pyramid Gold Flatwound 011-048 – Thomann UK

**Stringswinger** · 03-25-2018, 01:43 PM

Regarding Howard Alden, Howard told me that he has one of the three Dupont guitars made for the Sweet and Lowdown film. One was destroyed in the movie and the third was floating around the Bay Area for awhile (Paul Mehling owned it twice. Dave Rickets owned it, Jack Fields owned it and Bill Reinhart owned it last I heard). I am not sure that Howard played his in the movie. Those tracks might have been done on his Benedetto. I have played Howards Benedetto in my living room and can say that it has a very strong acoustic voice.

I use Argentines on my Dupont and like the sound and feel, but they wear out fast. My friend Tony Green uses bronze strings on his Dupont and it sounds great. John Jorgensen once told me that back in the 80's and 90's, he and Raul Reynoso used bronze strings on their genuine Selmers because they did not know any better. But with the long scale, Bronze rounds feel "difficult" to my fingers.

Bronze strings sound great (IMO) on an acoustic guitar and flatwounds feel best to me. I think I will try those Bronze flatwounds on my D'Angelicos and after my supply of Argentines is gone, on my Dupont (assuming the tension is OK). If the Gypsy jazz police are upset, who cares? Good players worry about their own gear, not the gear of others.

The important thing on a Selmac is to not put too much tension on the top.

**Sacco** · 03-25-2018, 05:53 PM

Those tracks might have been done on his Benedetto. I have played Howards Benedetto in my living room and can say that it has a very strong acoustic voice.

Could be. They could of EQ'd it in the studio to sound more like a SelMac. Tho...if you hear "I'll see you in my dreams" you hear a gypsy guitar, whatever it is, strongly on the gypsy side actually. If you hear "Wrap your troubles in dreams" carefully you'll hear the typical "hss" when you slide your fingers on a flatwound string, it sounds pretty much like rubbing on a violin string.

Also plays a big role if you play close to the bridge.

Great story and good luck trying the bronze flats.

Here's the pyramid chart if you're interested.

The String Guy on Pyramid Strings

**Sacco** · 03-25-2018, 10:38 PM

Ah...one thing I forgot to say.

The new strings threw my intonation quite a lot, I needed to adjust the bridge angle for around 1.2cm shorter on the bass and adjust the high E accordingly. The bridge moved so much I needed to reposition the moustache ends.

I'm curious why, Is a change of string material enough to do that?

**Sacco** · 03-25-2018, 11:30 PM

The red line is where the bridge was.

flatwounds on a selmac-2018-03-26_5-26-02-jpg

flatwounds on a selmac-2018-03-26-05-22-23-jpg

**Sacco** · 03-27-2018, 06:39 PM

Just ordered a new straight bridge, the flatwounds made my G string intonation too high after the 12th fret. Not catastrophic but nags me.

The one I have comes with compensation and the G is the sharpest. Now I understand why some guitars need a non compensated saddle and with the new one I don't need to set it as crooked as it is now hopefully.

Ordered from here:

Selmer Maccaferri Guitar Bridge Gypsy Jazz Bridge Rosewood Bridge -in Guitar Parts & Accessories from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group

I ordered some other guitar parts such as LesPaul pickup frames and a pickguard...never had any complaint.

**dhd** · 03-30-2018, 07:13 AM

I received some information from Galli and Strings and Beyond regarding the tension values of the
AJF1047 and AJF1252 80/20 Bronze Jazz Flat.
I'm not sure yet if it's for 25.5 inches scale length,
and sent another inquiry to Galli and Strings and Beyond.
I also asked for the tension values for AJF1150 string sets.

In an earlier post I mentioned how these Galli strings felt more flexible and easier to play to me
than D'Addario Chromes. I assumed the Galli strings had less tension but when comparing tension values charts, the D'Addario Chromes have less tension than the Galli.

**Sacco** · 04-03-2018, 05:46 PM

Savarez Argies:

10-45 = 123.1 Lbs

11-48 = 134.8 Lbs

Galli:

10-47 = 141 Lbs. I would say fine, maybe a little bit harder to bend than Pyramid 11-48. 141 Lbs would be my upper limit when it comes to tension. Gitane suggests to use light strings.

11-50 = They seem to be the same as Daddario ECG24 which are 143.9 Lbs tension, a bit high but might be doable.

12-52 = 171.2 Lbs - Way too much tension.

Pyramid Nickel Flats:

10 - 46 = 114 Lbs, too light (for my taste) and twangy. You might like them if you like to bend far and twang more. I would use a 011 E string anyway.

11 - 48 = 132.3 Lbs = Pretty close to the Argies, even better, is a tad less tension. I have no problem bending notes, but of course, I have been playing also 13s on my Jazz guitars so I'm pretty used to heavy strings.

D'Addario Chrome Flats:

10-48 = 117.0 Lbs

11-50 = 143.93 Lbs, a bit tense but should be ok. These seem to be the same set Galli uses.

12-52 = 155.2 (too much)

**SierraTango** · 04-03-2018, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

Regarding Howard Alden, Howard told me that he has one of the three Dupont guitars made for the Sweet and Lowdown film. One was destroyed in the movie and the third was floating around the Bay Area for awhile (Paul Mehling owned it twice. Dave Rickets owned it, Jack Fields owned it and Bill Reinhart owned it last I heard). I am not sure that Howard played his in the movie. Those tracks might have been done on his Benedetto. I have played Howards Benedetto in my living room and can say that it has a very strong acoustic voice.

I use Argentines on my Dupont and like the sound and feel, but they wear out fast. My friend Tony Green uses bronze strings on his Dupont and it sounds great. John Jorgensen once told me that back in the 80's and 90's, he and Raul Reynoso used bronze strings on their genuine Selmers because they did not know any better. But with the long scale, Bronze rounds feel "difficult" to my fingers.

Bronze strings sound great (IMO) on an acoustic guitar and flatwounds feel best to me. I think I will try those Bronze flatwounds on my D'Angelicos and after my supply of Argentines is gone, on my Dupont (assuming the tension is OK). If the Gypsy jazz police are upset, who cares? Good players worry about their own gear, not the gear of others.

The important thing on a Selmac is to not put too much tension on the top.

Don't mean to derail thread or keep doggin' your posts Marc-just seems that way! Little known trivia-John Jorgensen and Raul Reynoso played at Disneyland together in "The Rhythm Boys" early 80's. Raul is a fine guitarist, check out his CD "Royal Street" which mixes some of the GJ rep along with classic swing tunes and originals.
As a fun fact Raul was the original owner of my Dupont MC-30 14 fret.

I have tried Bronze strings on my former GJG a Latcho Drom Djanology and didn't fall in love. I've got some TI flats around so to heck with what the GJ police say-I'll give 'em a try next change from the Argies.

**Stringswinger** · 04-03-2018, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by SierraTango

Don't mean to derail thread or keep doggin' your posts Marc-just seems that way! Little known trivia-John Jorgensen and Raul Reynoso played at Disneyland together in "The Rhythm Boys" early 80's. Raul is a fine guitarist, check out his CD "Royal Street" which mixes some of the GJ rep along with classic swing tunes and originals.
As a fun fact Raul was the original owner of my Dupont MC-30 14 fret.

I have tried Bronze strings on my former GJG a Latcho Drom Djanology and didn't fall in love. I've got some TI flats around so to heck with what the GJ police say-I'll give 'em a try next change from the Argies.

John Jorgensen and I are friends and we have talked about his days at Disneyland. That was a great gig for him and Raul. And I do have Raul's album.

I have tried nickel strings on my Dupont. Not good tone wise (no "cut"). But Tony Green (another friend) gets a great sound out of his Dupont with Bronze strings, so I am inclined to try the Bronze again. I tried once but did not like the feel (too stiff). Perhaps the Euro Bronze flats will be a good choice for me? If not, I will be stuck changing out my Argies far more often than I (or my wallet!) like.

**Sacco** · 04-03-2018, 09:23 PM

Thanks for that video, that started so good already.

**Sacco** · 04-04-2018, 12:43 AM

I've updated my table, found more accurate info, look at Galli 11-50 and Daddario 11-50

They seem to be the same set, probably manufactured by D'addario. The overall tension is 143.93 Lbs

Also Galli are a hex chrome core with stainless steel wound. Not Bronze. The D'addario are also Chrome core with steel wound.

JF Jazz Flat Electric : JF1150

Do you agree is ok, or is too much tension? The Argies 11 are 134.8 Lbs

In Kilo:

Galli/Daddario 11-50 = 65.3 Kg

Argies 11s = 61.1

4.2 Kg difference.

**Sacco** · 04-04-2018, 12:53 AM

I have a set of LaBella 11-50 (011, .015, .020W, .028, .039, .050) A tad lighter than Daddario/Galli 11s. Also stainless steel flatwound.

20PL Jazz Flats - Light 11-50 | La Bella Strings

Apparently also Hex core:

La Bella jazz flats tension?

"The feel and sound are unique. The strings feel great. As Marty Grass suggested, LaBella strings give good thunk. For strings that look like old-fashioned, short-scale electric bass strings, they are surprisingly sustaining."

I'll try those once my new bridge arrives.

**Sacco** · 04-04-2018, 01:19 AM

Reading a lot of threads, everybody tends to call any Flatwound string dull hehe. ...people always claims that any other flatwound string set sounds brighter.

I paid real attention between the Argies and the Pyramid when I changed them and honestly the difference wasn't huge. You only miss the extra bit of sizzling that roundwound strings do but nothing else. Tone and volume wise these sound totally fine to me.

In reality with Argies, if you play say a D string at the 7th fret it sounds as dull as a flatwound.