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Hey Guys,
It's pleasure to post my first thread here. I'm not a newbie to the forum, I've been around for some time already but always on the side of reading and learning with all your experiences and opinions.
I'm Joao from Portugal, I'm 27 and I'm a great jazz lover. Started to play the guitar specifically because of jazz and I can't imagine myself trying to play anything else.
I'm lucky enough to have beautiful jazz boxes on a small collection started by my Father, but I normally don't use them out of home, so I bought a second hand Peerless Imperial NA.
First thing I did was to customize it putting an Humbucker, more precisely a Classic 57. I didn't like the original pickup tone, so I was hunting for that ES 175 tone, or with better luck a L5 sound out of it.
Now the problem is...I don't like the sound of the Classic 57. It's still too acoustic for me. I probably need a pickup less clear, I don't know how to explain but I need to reduce that acoustic tone I'm taking out of my Peerless. I love the guitar, the playability, the looks, the weight...but the sound is not what I was expecting.
What do you recommend for me guys? I would like to give it a try with a different pickup before considering in selling it and surrender to an ES 175 or something like that.
I've been reading a lot in the forum but I couldn't find any case like mine, at least that I could found around.
I read lots of suggestions about Seth Lover...what do you think? I'm also considering Bare Knuckle, Lollar, but I'm afraid of choosing a pickup that will have the same results as I'm having with the Classic 57.
Help me out guys and thank you very much in advance for taking the time to read and help me out.
Cheers,
Joao
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03-14-2018 08:40 AM
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Hey Joao,
Welcome.
Have you tried lowering and raising the pickup? I have a Seth Lover in my Eastman Pisano. I have found that I get very different sounds by raising and lowering the pickup. When it is closer to the strings, the sound is very nasal and a bit harsh and the guitar becomes more feedback prone. With the pickup further from the strings, the sound is much warmer and smoother.
What kind/gauge of strings are you using and how are you setting the tone of your guitar/amp? The reason I ask is because people have made similar comments about some guitars saying that they sound way too acoustic. Ironically, the issue is frequently that they try to roll back the tone on the amp and the guitar hoping that it make the sound darker and warmer. However, the opposite happens. When you roll back the tone, you are cutting the high frequencies from the amp, but the guitar still produces those frequencies. So of course it's going it sound acoustic; you're letting the acoustic sound through by doing that. If you use heavier strings, the acoustic will be louder, so you'll hear more.
So my two cents is to try some lighter strings, lower your pickup, and keep the tone up on your amp.
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I wouldn't think you could get a 175 or l-5 sound out of an Imperial no matter what pickup. It's firstly an acoustic instrument. Maybe someone more versed with pickups will chime in. Welcome aboard though.
Originally Posted by jayjazzy
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Hi omphalopsychos, Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
Thank you for your reply and suggestions.
Well, I use Thomastik Swing strings, 012-050, but had the George Benson's before, which are a bit heavier on the lower strings. In fact the pickup height is as "recommended" on setup specs. However, what you are saying makes total sense and I will definitely try that.
At the moment I have the guitar tone half way and I use a Vibrolux that is flat on the EQ, bright switch turned off. Still too acoustic, but I only dislike this tone in the highs. Even, I'm a thumb player, never use a pick, so I suppose that tone should be warmer that it is now.
I've also tried different specs on the wiring side, changed capacitors and pots of different values, being the current one the best, but not the ideal. Two 300k pots, 0.047uf paper in oil capacitor. I haven't tried a 0.022uf yet. Do you think this can make a difference?
Anyway, I will try to lower the pickup as soon as I get home. "When it is closer to the strings, the sound is very nasal and a bit harsh and the guitar becomes more feedback prone" This is more or less what is happening now.
Thank you very much once again!
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Tottally agree, it's just a way of saying that I would like to have the classic Jazz tone that we can have from both models. It is somehow my reference and ideal tone. Maybe I should have saved and bought an ES 175! Thank you skiboyny Originally Posted by skiboyny
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You should set the p'up closer to the strings. The '57 Classic doesn't have the "nasal" issue of other p'ups. Originally Posted by jayjazzy
Press the 1st and the 6th string and set the height of the p'up to the following measures, taken from the top of the cover to the lower part of the string:
6th: 2.4mm - 1st: 2.8mm
And don't forget to use the tone control!
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Gibson standard settings for humbuckers are 1/16 inch (2/32) on the treble side and 3/32 inch on the bass side for both bridge and neck pickups when the E strings are held down at the last fret as LtKojak mentions above. Use an inch to mm converter online if you are used to using metric measurements.
Please no nationalistic diatribe about imperial versus metric measurements. It is what it is.Last edited by Chazmo; 03-15-2018 at 03:37 PM.
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It looks like a Peerless Imperial is a solid carved top guitar with a floating pup. For the sound you are looking for, you need a guitar with the pup mounted in the body. Originally Posted by jayjazzy
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Good advice, though for some reason many resist using it. Originally Posted by LtKojak
>>SNIP<<
And don't forget to use the tone control!
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Apparently not all have floating pups, Reverb has a few with top mounted HB's. I suspect the OP has one of those. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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Originally Posted by Chazmo
Hey Chazmo, thank you for your input, I've replied to LtKojak and the measures were according to his suggestions. Working with imperial or metric measurements it's ok for me, I do have a ruler with both measurements. Thank you!
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Hi LtKojak, Originally Posted by LtKojak
You should set the p'up closer to the strings. The '57 Classic doesn't have the "nasal" issue of other p'ups.
Press the 1st and the 6th string and set the height of the p'up to the following measures, taken from the top of the cover to the lower part of the string:
6th: 2.4mm - 1st: 2.8mm
And don't forget to use the tone control!
Those were the measures I had before lowering the pickup last night. Tone control is also constantly working, I'm always seeking for the tone I'm looking for!
Thank you!
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Hello Cosmic, Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
My Peerless imperial was modified to mount the Classic 57 humbucker in the body. So, the sound should be there already...but it's not!
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João,
You said you have your Tone control about halfway. Have you tried turning Tone up and reducing the Volune control? On my ES-175s and L-5, I find 7 or 8 on Vol to be the sweet spot. As for height, I typically set my neck pickup to spec on the Treble side, then lower the Bass side until low E and high E have equal volume. This results in the pickup being my slightly slanted (bass side sits lower in the mounting ring than the treble side). Then, if sound is too weak (thin sounding) I adjust the both sides upward. Or if too strong (overdrive or excessive bass), I adjust both sides downward until it sounds smooth. I know you’ve tried all this so I’m scratching my head wondering. If raising the pickup (which typically reduces the airy/acoustic-ness) causes problems, maybe you can try the second input on your amp? Just spit balling here. Good luck on your tone quest!
Roli
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Roli, Originally Posted by rolijen
Thank you for your input and advice.
I normally play the guitar around 7 and 8, sometimes lower, depending on the amp and location that I'm playing.
I've also tried and use the guitar in several amps, Twin Reverb old and new, Vibrolux, Bassman, Champ and Polytone. Polytone is where I can have the best results, however I know it's not the true sound of the guitar, I think that the true sound of the guitar is heard through the Fender amps, flat EQ.
I've been scratching my head on this for so long that soon I will loose my hair
Thank you
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try switching your bridge with the TOM (tune-o-matic) bridge from your other guitars.
regarding pickups and amp, you want less acoustic tone and more electric tone. to me that means more midrange and more EQ manipulation from your amp. Setting your amp flat is not ideal. You want the character of the amp's midrange to come out more. The acoustic sound you are referring to sounds like you have a scooped EQ setting either naturally from the guitar, the pickup, or because your amp settings are flat.
if you are going to choose another pickup look at the resonant peak and inductance reading of the pickup, not just the DC resistance. the SD Lover pickups (according to the SD site) have a scooped midrange - again not what you want. If you don't want to make the wrong choice contact the pickup maker directly. Bare Knuckle and Lollar would be happy to answer your questions directly and point you in the right direction with their products.
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OK a completely different approach ...
I had this problem on my ibanez
Laminated top jazz box
I stuffed the bass side of the guitar with foam
through the bass f hole
This reduced to about half he acoustic sound
(And controlled some feedback I was getting)
This got me the sound I wanted ....
This is cheap and reversible and worked
Great for me ....
Good luck
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Sorry, but it's not clear to me if my word of advice helped or not to solve your problem? Originally Posted by jayjazzy
If yes, you're most welcome. If not, then you just don't like the p'up and it's gotta be replaced.
I personally don't like it, but you might: try a Di Marzio 36th Ann. neck.
Another contender is the Lollar High Wind Imperial neck. Not the cheapest, but I think it might be just what the doctor ordered!
HTH,
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You may already know this, but flat on a Vibrolux is with both the bass and treble at zero. If I put them both at 5 (12 o'clock) on mine, it sounds like crap. For jazz, I need them both at zero.
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Hey Joao .. I also don't like the 57s, but have found bliss with a Benedetto A6. That would be my suggestion
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I agree about the A6. My Bambinos have them, and I put one in my Wu, and it's a great pickup.
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Can you link to an example or two of the type of sound you want? That would save a lot of time and speculation, possibly avoiding barking up the wrong tree.
If what you want is the ES-175 type sound, you're probably not going to get it from this guitar. That sound comes from a laminate 16" guitar with a deep body; there is something about the ES-175 that no other guitar quite gets there.
My own case in point. When I bought my current main guitar in 2006, a 17" carvetop in the Benedetto style made by forum member Matt Cushman, the sound I was chasing in my head was Jim Hall early 60s with his ES-175 with a P90 and his Gibson GA-50 amp. I didn't really understand the difference in tone that different guitar designs achieve. The Cushman came with a Johnny Smith style floating pickup. It was basically completely different from a 175. My amp was an early 70s Fender Pro Reverb silverface. You can guess that the tone I was getting was far away from the tone in my head.
I spent years trying different pickups, different amps, different pots and caps, different cables, different strings, different picks... it never sounded like an ES-175. It played wonderfully- easy up and down the neck, comfortable, really liked the acoustic sound- and looked really nice. Fantastic guitar, could not have been happier unplugged. What I finally realized was that the guitar sounded great electrically on its own terms. It was listening to Peter Bernstein on his Ziedler, in particular, that opened my ears up to the beauty of the wide, pianistic, dynamic sound that this guitar produces. I stopped having to find a different sound and embraced the one I already have.
The moral of the story is that your guitar may already sound great, even if it doesn't sound like an ES-175. But if *that* is the sound you want, nothing other than a Gibson ES-175 is really going to get it. Probably a late 80s one with mahogany neck, back and sides and the somewhat thicker top of those years.
In the meantime: play with the pickup height, turn the treble and bass knobs on your Fender amp to 0 - 0.5 and turn the volume up a bit to compensate, use a heavy pick made from a slightly soft material like the D'Andrea Pro Plec. Running the guitar volume knob at 6-8 will cut some of the highs (unless the guitar has a treble bleed circuit, which you should remove), then the tone knob is just to taste. Turn the amp volume up and pick softly (this is the Jim Hall trick for his tone- use the power of the amp to be able to play more softly on the guitar). Pick by the end of the neck. Round-core pure nickel wrapped strings such as Pyramids sound warmer. Also Jim Hall used light strings like 10s or 11s, often with a plain 3rd, and picked lighter.
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I agree with turning down the treble and bass on the fender amp. Gotta "unscoop" those mids.
You also might try turning the amp volume up a bit and then use guitar volume control to adjust level. For example, with my Fender Pro Junior, I can set the volume at 4 -- which is way loud for practice -- and then roll the guitar volume up from zero to only 3 or 4 and get a great jazz tone. If I try to max the guitar volume and turn down the amp, the tone is not as good. Thinner.
A couple of other thoughts.
1. The Classic '57 is a great pickup. Maybe not everyone's favorite, but it is mine and it can make a super great jazz tone.
I love 'em. I think in neck position that often the treble side of the pickup can be a bit closer to the strings.
2. Not every guitar has a sweet high end. Dialing down a too trebly tone is a common issue on this forum, sometimes leading to a very expensive tone search involving lots of new gear. Funny thing is, when I practice I always love that smokey dark tone. But when I'm out playing a show, I invariably have to turn up the treble -- along with everything else!
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So my 2 cents worth LOL! After owning a number of archtops over the years, I've found a couple of things to be constant.
Eastman 810CE, 905CE,803CE w/humbucker JP880CE these all are fairly thin carved tops and backs. So either with a floating or humbucker pickup they sound on the brighter, less mids, and somewhat acoustic in the flat top sense.
Elferink Tonemaster (Dutch) Gibson Johnny Smith, L-5C with floater,etc. these guitars all have thicker tops and backs and definitely have more mid character in both their acoustic as well as electric tones.
Gibson ES-775,175, Benedetto Bambino, etc. these laminates have less acoustic presence as well as a flatter tonal response. Best description is Dry and Even electric tone!
No matter which pickup yu choose it will still sound like the acoustic footprint with variations of that tone. So if you want a Jim Hall type of tone get a laminate instrument.
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Was the pickup routed at/near the end of the fretboard versus farther back towards the bridge? Further back will affect the tone. Originally Posted by jayjazzy
Hello Cosmic,
My Peerless imperial was modified to mount the Classic 57 humbucker in the body. So, the sound should be there already...but it's not!
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