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Hi everyone,
I've just joined and was wondering if anyone on here was knowledgeable on Kay Archtops?
I live in Scotland, so you don't see many of them locally, but, I picked this beauty up for a good price and it has some serious mojo!
It's had a neck reset, new frets and at some point in its life someone's fitted a DeArmond Gold Foil pickup. It plays very nicely and through my Super sounds very sweet.
I've been told it's likely a 1946 or 1947 model but don't know where that info comes from.
It has a 17 inch lower bout.
It has simple cream binding on the front and back of the body, also along the edges of the fretboard.
The tuners are strips of 3s, not separate units.
Simple Kay signature on headstock (glued on)
Headstock is pointed with a gentle downwards curve to the sides
It has a black truss rod cover on the front of the headstock.
Dotted inlays on the fretboard.
Sunburst finish
F holes are unbound
Wooden saddle with a thumb screw adjuster on each side
Trapeze tailpiece
It says L952 inside the body
The back is a laminate
Top looks solid
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02-22-2018 04:22 PM
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nice...i like those old kays...dearmond gold foil is perfect for it
can't tell from pic, but many of those type of guitars-kay, harmony, regal etc etc...have pressed solid spruce tops
enjoy
cheers
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Great guitar...neck is huge, right?
I have one very similar, with no electronics. I believe the electronics on yours are aftermarket, it would have been all acoustic originally.
From what I've been able to research, it's a little younger than late 40's-- it's more likely mid to late 50's. The model is called the "Master Cutaway," and it was the top of Kay's "Student Line," priced at about $80 in the late 50's. I do think the top is solid pressed. Mine is quite loud, with a nice vibration you can feel in your chest, it's pretty lightly built and resonant.
Nice pickup, very underrated guitars...not the easiest to play, but they sound great.
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Yes the neck is pretty chunky. I like it
The pickup is definitely aftermarket, probably in the last few years as there's not the same level of wear and tear on it as the rest of the guitar. It's a vintage pickup though.
It could well be a pressed top.
Thanks for the help so far!
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The Kay K8950 "Master Cutaway" Model was built between 1960 and 1965. According to my records, that model got the new "THIN-LITE" neck with adjustable truss rod in 1962; before that the neck was simply "steel-reinforced".
From the 1962 Kay catalog:
- features full master size (17 x 42") ... many professional features ... and a new low price, tool selected spruce top, laminated curly maple back and sides, celluloid-bound edges. "THIN-LITE" neck with adjustable truss rod. Celluloid-bound, oval rosewood fingerboard with nickel silver frets. Adjustable rosewood bridge. Shaded mahogany finish with golden highlights, beautifully hand-rubbed and polished to a deep gleaming luster.
$ 85.00 in 1962 ($ 89.50 in 1965)
All these big Kay archtops (and related rebranded names) date back to the same design and body construction/size, some vague visual inspiration must have come from the Super 400. The early models were named K-21, K-11 and K-1, the K-1 being the most plain looking one.
Kay's naming and numbering system was a chaos: around 1957 the renamed the K-21 in K8921 "Masterpiece", the K-11 in K8911 "Rhythm Special" and the K-1 in K8901 "Combo".
The model K8950 was an acoustic model relating to the original K-1. All these 17" acoustic models had pressed solid spruce tops, the bodies were nicely made. I think Kay made only two models with carved tops, the prewar "Television" K60 and K62. Some claim the K-21 had also a carved top - this could be true for the very first examples, but the 1950 K-21 models, IMO, had pressed tops. To this day some guitar folks struggle to see or hear that difference - to the delight of some manufacturers.
The Kay Musical Instrument Company actually began in Chicago in 1890 as the Groehsl (originally: Groeschel) Company, changing ist name to the Stromberg-Voisinet Company in 1921; but it would be Henry Kay Kuhrmeyer who would forge Stromberg-Voisinet into a major force in American guitar history between 1931 and 1955. Though Kay catered to the mass market, they were pioneers of making high quality plywood laminations (just think of the Kay double basses), and it was Kuhrmeyer who offered very early, in October of 1928, probably years before Gibson, "Electrically Amplified Guitars, Tenor Guitars, Banjos and Mandolins" (offered as Stromberg Electro Instruments).
Personally, I like the sound and decent quality of the 17" K-21/11/1 from the 1940s until 1955, the year when Kuhrmeyer retired. Though almost all of these light-weight guitars need a neck reset (t h e weak point), acoustically or equipped with a DeArmond, many of them can do the job amazingly well - at least, the price-performance ratio is very good. The neck sizes differ greatly, from a Louisville Slugger to well-playable, slimmer profiles. This can happen in the same year, so a Kay can have a massive neck, and a Silvertone rebranded Kay from the same year can have a surprisingly modern one. Of course, these archtops are never slim-neck wonders ... they demand a player who is able to fight ad astra per aspera.
Kay also put one or two pickups in some of these 17" bodies, though - in my own experience - these feature laminated spruce tops, not solid pressed ones. Excellent for the authentic, dirty blues beast that, IMO, all jazz guitarists should be able to unleash, now and then:
After 1955, again in my own experience, the general Kay quality, especially the acoustic sound quality, took a hard nose dive - though a few later examples might still sound great - hopefully yours is one of the them! Personally, I'd never care about the overrated Kelvinator or half-Kelvinator guitars. Kay also made countless numbers of low quality guitars for beginners - probably the reason why most players back away when only hearing the Kay brand name. This is not always justified.
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Chr1s, congratulations on your lovely guitar!
Ol'Fret, thank you for the excellent history lesson. Handsome stable you've got there.Last edited by rabbit; 02-22-2018 at 10:02 PM.
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Thanks, rabbit!
I forgot to add that the stamped numbers inside the Kay bodies, on the backs, probably don't mean a thing in terms of the model identification. Rumours say these numbers related to different work shifts at the Kay Company.
If that neck is original ... it is definitely an early 1960s model. Kay used more than 30 different headstock shapes, and this one, together with the adjustable truss rod, points clearly to 1962 - 65. The same headstock shape, of course w/o truss rod, was already used around 1941, though maybe only on the Silvertone Crest model made by Kay.
If the neck is not original, we'd have a hard time to tell something meaningful about the year!
Ah, yes, this black fretboard: originally the 1-cut 17" K-1 had a rosewood fretboard, as was the successor K8950 supposed to have. Later on, they took whatever they got, rosewood or ebony, or they blackened the rosewood. Ha, reminds me a bit of the postwar daily chaos in the German archtop guitar mass production - could well be that Kuhrmeyer was of German origin ...
Contrary to some misleading stories, Barney Kessel often played Kay Guitars and can seen on video playing a Kay Jazz Special Guitar on the T.V. series Johnny Staccato, “Television’s Jazz Detective”(source: wikipedia)Last edited by Ol' Fret; 02-22-2018 at 09:00 PM.
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great stuff ol' fret!
per usual
funny thing was i was working on a harmony (fender distributed) '59 regal pressed top spruce arch with dearmond blackfoil!! (later) added, when this thread began..has adj trussrod & (came with) bell 3 on a plate tuners
bay area always had shops that specialized in these kind of vintage off-brand guitars...always interesting
cheers
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I have a 1940 Kay Television, and while I've read that the top is carved, I'm not so sure- it's awfully thick, and doesn't show, on the inside, the characteristic markings of a carved top(compared to the vintage Epiphones I've worked on). Ol' Fret, have you had a chance to look at one of these? It's quite lovely on the outside, the sound is lacking...
Dave
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Wow thanks all for the help with the ID and to ol' Fret for the history lesson!
Ive not yet removed the black truss rod cover to confirm that's actually what it is. I suppose it's possible someone could have fitted it for cosmetic purposes, though I don't see why anyone would...
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Originally Posted by Dave Richard
Ol' Fret, have you had a chance to look at one of these? It's quite lovely on the outside, the sound is lacking...
Dave
Sorry, no, I've never checked a prewar Kay! And, yes, I believe your Television could actually be lacking some sound ...
The inspected guitars were a quite well made, looking and sounding K-44 "Artist Archtop" (noncut, pressed top, 1947- 51). Then mostly K-21/11/1 models (cutaway, pressed, 1952 - 56) and its corresponding successors until 1958, and later 'electrics' (Aristrocrat, etc.), which - though using the same body size and looking a bit fancier - sport pressed laminated spruce tops, couldn't draw my interest.
According to the Kay catalog 1952 and 53 description of the K-21 (pictured above in the foreground - the tailpiece, bridge and tuners are not original) the "Arched top is carved from a solid block of choice aged, close grained spruce." Well, I cannot agree.
When the blues really hit me, I can still wail on a blonde K-152 "Spanish Electric Archtop" (cutaway, pressed laminated spruce, 1955 - 56), the same model as "Bigboy" Crudup played in the video above, only with one pickup. His was probably a K-192 2-pu model.
The smaller "all mahogany" K-37 acoustic archtops (noncut, laminated, 1952 - 56) and its successors K6437 (1957 - 65) can make solid and amazingly loud travel guitars. Ok, sometimes a neck turned out to be made of painted maple... the neck-body joints are usually crappy and have to be addressed to, and that's the basic problem with all these guitars: a pro repair exceeds easily the value of the instrument.
While I'm certainly an archtop instrument and jazz (= music) junkie, I don't see myself as a Kay guitar junkie. However, they've made some of the best sounding archtops for the money, many American players made their first steps on a Kay, and so, IMO, deserve a little more respect. We all know that Gibson made also some guitars for mail-order houses.
My interest in Kuhrmeyer aroused when I learned about the 1928 "Electrically Amplified Guitars" offered by Stromberg-Voisinet (later Kay). Sometime in 1937 Rickenbacker challenged Kay's right to make electric guitars, and in his response, Kuhrmeyer alludes to his previous electric escapades. If someone is interested, we could extend on this. Until another candidate is found, Kay was the first American electric guitar maker!
Finally, though I never played one, I must confess to be a fan of some later versatile Kay electrics, for example, here a K592 (not a Swingmaster) made for Airline:
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Cool pics, Chr1s, that indeed point to the early to mid 1960's!
What's obvious is that they used a different, way too thick "tank" finish at that time. What did they think?
Check the actual new stuff that some "market-leaders" put out in this respect - again, no thought at all about the importance of the finish for the acoustic sound: using nitro lacquer alone doesn't mean anything. Neither are the formulas the same as the vintage stuff, nor are the spraying procedures. You can certainly use almost any finish today, if you only know how to apply it correctly in terms of acoustics - and then you have to spend the time and pay educated personnel for doing this.
The good thing with your Kay, Chr1s, is, that after 50 or so years that finish "shell" cracked open and the guitar can finally breathe and resonate. That's one of the main reasons why they say a new guitar would need time "to open up".
Michael Wright wrote about Sidney M. Katz, the president of the Kay Musical Instrument Company after 1955, that he "was about to steer Kay in an entirely different direction. It is this later version of the Kay Company - ultimately a pale reflection of the glory days under Kuhrmeyer - with which most guitar fans are familiar."
In his farewell speech, Kuhrmeyer said, "Making and selling basses, cellos and fretted instruments requires a specialized knowledge of the business. Fortunately for all concerned, the right man came along - an aggressive, experienced young man who is determined to make Kay an even more important name in the music field."
In a statement that falls into the "famous last words" category, Katz said: "No changes are contemplated in product, prices, or personnel. We intend to keep right on serving the same customers in the same Kay manner. The Kay formula, I know, has been a successful one. But I'm also convinced that complacency can be desastrous in the years ahead. So nothing will be taken for granted in making plans for the future."
Though it didn't yet know it, the Kay Musical Instrument Company was now about to begin getting "face-lifts". In a thoroughly "modern" approach, by the way, a glamorous female model named "Kay" was used to promote the Kay line at the NAMM show, and conventioneers were invited to see "the gal" up in "Kay's room". Har, har, har. Hardly an approach one might imagine in the old days.
Sounds all somehow familiar in this day and age, doesn't it?Last edited by Ol' Fret; 02-23-2018 at 08:03 AM.
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My father had an Old Kraftsman ES330 style guitar made by Kay, with the Kay-style headstock, which he ordered from the Spiegel catalog. It was a nice-playing guitar after he did a setup. Unfortunately it spent some years in an outdoor storm cellar, and when I got it after his death, and I tried to adjust the truss rod, it snapped almost immediately. I may get it repaired someday, but it's not in great shape.
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Hello all! I just picked up an arch-top at an estate sale and is marked KAY '40" on the head-stock. The condition looks not bad but could use a fare amount of TLC. I looked on-line but could not identify manufacturing date or confirm model or determine value. The Kay Guitar Company web site did not have any info. Does anyone have any info that they can share regarding age, lineage, specs, etc? Thanks for your help in advance.
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The Kay K 40, a shortlived 17" non-cut Spanish archtop (actually the 17" Kays are a little larger than 17"), introduced as one of three new Kay archtops in 1955 ($ 85), discontinued at the end of 1956.
From the 1956 Kay catalog:
Quality, Value and Serviceability!
K-40 leads the field with artist features.
Master size, fully arched 17" wide
body. [Pressed] Spruce top, select curly [laminated]
maple back and sides. "Speed
Demon" neck, with balanced-
tension, holds its alignment. Oval
rosewood fingerboard; heavy frets. [Obviously, they didn't relate to the three-piece tulip inlays in their description]
Hand-rubbed and polished by
craftsmen.
K 40-S Rich, shaded Mahogany
with Golden Sunburst . . $100.00
K 40-B Honey Blonde . . $110.00Last edited by Ol' Fret; 09-12-2018 at 05:51 AM.
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Possibly of interest:
Scott Baxendale is ‘Remanufacturing’ Old Harmony and Kay Guitars – Acoustic Guitar
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More Kay History covering company's transitions and owners over the years:
Kay History | ChasingGuitars
http://www.kaybass.com/history.htm
Two photos attached:
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Ol" Fret - Thanks for the catalog details Just what I was looking for.
Now I need to determine if harp. tuners and case are original.
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It wouldn't matter to me if the case were original or not. It's a cheap, flimsy case, essentially worthless. It protects the guitar better than nothing, but not a lot better. I don't know enough about those guitars to say whether they're original, but from the photo I see no evidence they've been changed. They were installed rather carelessly, at random angles.
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I could not find any markings on the tuners (using a magnifying glass). Maybe there some on the underside but that requires their removal. I plan to check that when I get around to replacing strings, cleaning fret board, etc. I found a You tube video suggesting that Kluson tuners were the correct period choice. I'll see if there are any extra holes under the tuners when I have the opportunity to remove one or more. I also noticed their inconsistent alignment, and I find this surprising in a Quality guitar.
RE the case: your point is acknowledged. My interest is more toward history of this particular instrument and not $ value of the case.
Thanks for your input.
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That Kay "faux alligator" cardboard case should be original, the tuners are probably not. Most of the nicer Kay archtops during the Henry 'Kay' Kuhrmeyer era came with Kluson tuners.
Alligator cases were often a hallmark for the better part of instruments in the early and mid 1950s. In the saxophone realm, when a Super 20 (H.N. White in Cleveland) horn player appeared with the alligator case at jam sessions or saxophone battles, the "rivals" knew they at least would have to fight against a mighty sound. The same was with the less known, but coequal postwar Kohlert horns in Germany - Kohlert had provided the White Company with horns as early as in the 1910s.
A glimpse of my Kay K-45 (1952 - 1954); original finish. In the catalogs the K-45s were only offered in blonde finish:
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Your Kay 45 is awesome. Looks like it is new out of the box.
At some point I might replace my tuners with Kluson"s. I found a few on line for under $50.00 for the set. Originals were nickle finish?
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Older Kay archtops all featured nickel plated hardware. A few post 1955 Kay archtops had an extremely short stay with me, so I cannot tell when Kay eventually switched to chrome hardware. Since Gibson as the market leader, back then, did it around 1965, my guess is the rest of the industry followed that year.
Originally Posted by rabbit
Scott's does his 'remanufacturing' guitar work successfully for a considerable time now. Some thoughts:
Though flattop guitars are not quite my interest, I'm convinced that the kind of and care used for bracing can be essential for a flattop's sound quality. It's quite plausible, IMO, that after remanufacturing, a cheap Kay or Harmony flattop could match up to a valuable Martin or Larson. The most important point is that guitars regarded as cheapos almost always don't get the same TLC (string set-up, refretting, neck resetting) that a more valuable guitar (i.e., valuable in terms of bucks) is expected to get from the beginning. It just depends on the expectations of the owners / players.
On archtop guitars the mass of the bracing wood is much smaller in relation to the mass of the top plate; the mass-stiffness relation is not comparable to a flattop guitar with a thin and even 1/8" or so top plate thickness. This means that by changing the bracing of an archtop guitar as a solo procedure (and within reasonable limits) we would not expect the sound to become radically different afterwards. I'm not aware that Scott routinely changes the tonebars on old Kay or Harmony archtops - maybe he does, but what would this be good for? The two longitudinal tonebars of old Kay 'mastersize' archtops were generally built sturdily, rather impressing to be overbuilt, with the same simple and time-saving rectangular cross-section that Gibson archtop bracings have sported.
As a side note, the Dutch guitar maker Theo Scharpach acquired pre-carved archtop plates from Lang's widow, after Lang's death (at least, that's the official story that Theo believes, but I know there were one or two more persons involved in this deal - the real story might have been a bit different). Theo converts these plates slowly into precious and marvellous looking archtop guitars - but these don't sound like Lang archtops, not even remotely. Why? We know that he favors X-bracing on these guitars, but, like already mentioned above, this fact alone would not allow for such a different acoustic pattern.
Recently, Theo confirmed, what I had long suspected: Theo Scharpach - Symphontree Music (scroll down to "Scharpach's Dream Archtop"). Theo states "I needed to change on all my Archtops the curves of the original pre-carved woods. (because I did not like these curves)". Holy cow! An experienced luthier like Scharpach recognized the general acoustic quality of Lang's wood, but not the far more important (violin) principles that Lang uncompromisingly followed? I wish Theo the best for a good preselling of this really, really rough looking set of noncut plates, turning it into a one-off Scharpach guitar. Like the Cremonese masters Lang sometimes did not shy away from using wood with minor imperfections or wood that was not bookmatched, if the wood was acoustically superior - but I did never, even approximately, come across such a rough set on a Lang, rather the opposite.
What do we learn? For the sound of archtop guitars the elaboration of the tonebars are just another way of fine tuning. Among many other contributing factors like the wood selection, etc., above all the specific arching pattern of the plates, it's graduation and thickness, the recurve and channeling towards the edge are what count most for the acoustic sound. A nice plate channeling can be a bitch in multiple ways: it is a pain to make and scrape finely towards the purfling, it tends to counterproductive thick lacquer confluence during the spraying, the concavity has to be sanded by hand during the intermediate sandings, and makes also the final buffing procedure not exactly easy. No wonder, the guitar industry has thought it to be a good idea to get rid of this annoying channeling issue ...
There's too less consideration of all this in the present archtop guitar world. I'd like to invite Theo to bring along some of his finest archtop guitars with altered Lang plates, and study the ideas and acoustic objectives of Lang's archtop curves (and some other makers' from the violin and guitar world during the past). One day will not do it. After that, if he still thinks he does not like Lang's archtop curves then it's just like that!
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Just for the sake of more completeness … there was another Kay "40" archtop guitar I've found in my files.
Don't know much about this one except that it was made in very low numbers between 1941 and 1942:
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I just bought a k-40 like the one you just showed above. (1940-41) I have been googling my brain numb but was only able to find 2 or so pictures and no information about them. I plan on restoring it to be a living room player but I don't know if I should make any changes , such as a p90 and color change , if it is kinda low production . Anybody know anything about it or have any thoughts ?
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