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Exactly my thought.
Originally Posted by ovidius
I agree that the problem is with the overdone fret beveling, not with the nut. If you can live with a closer than string spacing, then the nut fix - alongside a reduction of the string space at the bridge too - will do the trick. If you want to keep the string spacing you will have to fix the frets - either file them down to become very low or a complete refret. The last would be my choice.
Actually, my first thought was "return it" but maybe the price was so good that the cost of a refret can be contained within the discount. Furthermore, it seems that Gibson has put the production of the 175 on a halt, so it may not be easy to find new ones in the foreseeable future.
I find it appaling that a guitar with such a flaw is allowed to leave the factory (or the dealer for that matter). It suggests that the ones building the guitar and/or doing the QC don't play guitar themselves and don't know what they are doing. A guitarist would never let it pass. Cosmetic faults are one thing (and should of course not occur either) but this fault severely hampers the very playability of the guitar. It would not be more costly or labor intensive to do it right (steaper fret beveling) in the first place than to do it wrong like here. It's tempting to ask "what were they thinking" - but obviously they were not thinking at all.
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01-18-2018 07:26 AM
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Thanks to everybody for your support, after insisting to CME to check the guitar as it is a problem to return it from abroad, waiting one month, and pass the customs paying more than 500 usd, I am quite dissapointed for this situation. I am contacting CME now, I hope the respond properly to this situation. Originally Posted by oldane
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It is very hard to know what to make of the public’s (meaning people here really) perception of Gibson guitars.
So many people here have bought the CME deals and loved the guitars, so surely that is the part that matters???
But between the “feature” of a rolled binding, the asinine practice of fretting before binding the FB (leading to the “feature” of the nibs), and the absurd deep rounding of the already short frets - a so-called 1 11/16 nut width becomes absurdly narrow.
I tried out a CME 275. Sounded quite good and the overall design is great. But the workmanship on the binding, and frets, while VERY typical, was useless.
For me, new frets means less than $20 in materials and playing a movie on the iPad set on the workbench for the evening.
But to make the 275 work I would have needed to re-bind the FB as well to get rid of the ham-fisted “rolled” feature that prevented a full-width fret job.
That is do-able, but beyond what makes sense to me on a new guitar, even an expected mess from Gibson.
After looking at the 275, and a pile of ES Les Pauls, plus a few 335s and a 175, in my opinion it is very difficult to get a string spacing (center to center) at the nut of more than 35mm and still have the E strings stay on the FB.
And even that requires a bit of fret lowering to get rid of the truly absurd deeply rounded ends.
Compare this to my cleanly built Terada Gretsch that I have set up with 37,5mm spacing with no problem at all on the same claimed (in this case, actual) 1 11/16 nut width. The fret ends are great. Beveled and smooth.
For players who do not mind 35mm spacing (more of less what would be typical on a competent 1 5/8 nut width), I see no practical problem with the Gibson methods. Sure it is a result of slovenly practices, but it seems to work for many, and even becomes described as a feature (like the sloped 175 PU’s).
Truly amazing, even amongst a forgiving brand-fan base.
I hope the OP gets a solution that works. But please do not expect a Memphis archtop to allow a practical center-to-center spacing at the nut of more than 35mm unless you are happy playing the E strings on the deeply rounded fret ends. (And some good players are very happy to do this.)
From the pic, your 175 looks very typical of the recent guitars I have seen and tried.
From the CME point of view they arguably sent you the same thing that many here gush over at some length (despite a sloppy and compromised width).
I hope you get the guitar you want, playing well for you.
Chris
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In sympathy to CME, what do they do when they send 25 sloppy Memphis guitars out to very very very satisfied customers, then “check out” a guitar and find it identical to the prior 25?
Arguably they are 100% rejects compared to the quality of most other brands.
Yet so many are enthusiastically received. I suppose that ALL are eventually enthusiastically received by someone.
It is truly remarkable.
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Make the best of the situation. If the frets have too much bevel, send it for new frets with a competent tech. I am sure CME will be happy to pick up the tab or partially pay for the re-fret.
There are some benefits to be had with a re-fret. 1) You can choose the fret wire and size that you like. 2) No nibs! 3) The es-175 will probably play much better.
I don't think a good re-fret hurts the resale. Sending it back is expensive for all involved. I don't know how much a re-fret costs where you are but it will certainly be lower than sending it back. Get a new nut at the same time.
It looks like a really nice ES-175 that you have got save the frets. This deal won't come around again. I would urge you not to allow initial disappointment get to you because the solution is there if you look for it.
What's the big deal about keeping a new guitar pristine for resale anyway? If you play it enough, it will require new frets in about a year or two. Re-fret it now to make it YOUR guitar.
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As Chris says a new nut and be done with it getting it proper, after all it is a nice guitar regardless of what one might think of them.
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Hi Rene (Jabber’),
The difficulty is that the binding has been screwed up by gibson. So a re-fret still leaves you short of what you should expect at a 1 11/16th width.
Look at the binding on the low E side. (The high E side is blown out by lightning so hard to see.)
At the nut you have the full binding still there, but once you get to the frets, the binding has been scraped down to less than 1/3 of its actual width.
Even a real (thus no-nibs) refret is a problem since the actual FB width is deeply compromised by the extremely sloppy binding rounding.
I know this rounding is presented as a feature.
The pics are VERY typical of the Memphis guitars. A refret will help, but really it needs new FB binding as well. This is not a big job really, but does require some care in lacquering the new binding and blending that well with the existing neck finish. No big deal, but un-cheap in most markets.
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EDIT: But yes indeed Jabber’ your recommended re-fret will help considerably in my opinion - and quite possibly to the OP’s satisfaction.
I do not mean to dump on your suggestion at all. Just that in my opinion, the problem was too extensive to fix on the 275 I looked at.
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All in my opinion.
Chris
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Yeah, Chris, I see that now. It has been scraped really really thin. Just trying to make lemonade out of lemons. How much would it cost to re-bind and re-fret it versus sending it back? Hard for ovidus to get his VAT back.
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You would have to get a local quote, but in a major market figure a total of $700 for the binding and frets.
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EDIT: This could vary widely. In the small-town middle of the USA I am amazed how little some charge for work. And someone scared off by the binding re-finish work could easily want 500 quatloos for the binding alone, raising the total to maybe 900+.
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If someone was unfamiliar with small scale lacquer work for the binding re-finish they might charge more.
Once the frets are out, the re-bind is pretty easy. It is a quick and well-done re-finish that is the minor thrill.
All in my opinion.
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It has been easily 5 years since I did a rebind on an L4 CES fingerboard.
The Gibson FB binding is an extrusion with a tab that fits into a slot in the edge of the FB. The new binding would be a normal flat piece of ABS. This works just fine. The Gibson method just makes for a very fast fit-up in a production environment.
I have absolutely no idea if the Memphis guitars use the same binding extrusion with the tab. I only assume so.
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I edited my earlier comments that seemed critical of your suggestion. Indeed a local re-fret, while still keeping the rolled binding, would help very much. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
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Useless blather now:
Cardinal lacquer cuts down the time to do a re-bind quite a bit. Especialy over the ABS binding, it sinks back and can be blended with the existing neck finish just a few days after spraying - especially in the crazy-dry winter air (in the NE USA).
Loves me some Cardinal lacquer.
Chris
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If you *do* try the baking soda/glue thing, be VERY careful. Mask the entire surrounding area. Headstock around the nut, fingerboard where it meets the nut, etc. Personally, I would just spring for a new nut and all 6 strings will be aligned.
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This can be fixed by moving the string slot to the left (toward the B string) the width of one high E string. The guitar will play perfectly. Just mark the spot with a sharp pencil right next to the existing slot. Seal up the old string slot with bone powder and superglue. Then take a nut slot file (I used a .010 micro perf blade) and carve the new slot. The trick is to carve the slot deep enough to match the fretboard radius. It might take a couple of tries. Go a little bit at a time. Don't go too deep!
You will be done with it and you will have the best guitar that $2200 can buy, bar none.
Stay positive. You snagged a GREAT deal. Just look at the whole guitar. Its a masterpiece. One little slot was off by .012". I wish I could be so accurate in everything I do. I remember me and Vinny were looking at these 175's a year ago on Dave's website and we were drooling over them. At $3899!! The clarity of this guitar will astound you. AND, they actually open a little over a short period of time. Mine is already beginning to show off its tone range. The basses are getting lower.
Enjoy.
Joe D.
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If a guitar has to be returned for repair or guarantee replacement the customs won't charge tax for the import again when it comes back.
Though a refret over the binding would help the first string i think the binding problem on the bass side is a serious flaw and i'd recommend the OP to ask CME to take it back and either have it fixed or replace it with a unflawed one as a guarantee replacement shipping both ways at their cost.
If they won't do it there's still the option of a refret, which will certainly help the playability. I have an L5 where the 6th string slips over the nib around the 3rd fret area when i'm not fingering carefully. I can live with it but i couldn't if the first string was doing that anywhere on the neck.Last edited by JazzNote; 01-18-2018 at 11:09 AM.
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not saying you have to sent it back, but if you’re unhappy you can sent it back and get your vat back, altough it will involve some paperwork and time. You’ll probably have to visit your customs and show the guitar, because they have to be sure you sent back the exact guitar you received. After that you get your vat back.. anyway, that’s how it works here. Cme will refund the shipping.
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You guys are overthinking this. Joe D. Provided the solution.
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That is shocking, the binding is a disaster. If this was in the US then the answer would be " no big deal, send it back to CME they will replace". Because it is Europe, the exact same issues become a great problem. I don,t think you should have to remove binding, re-fret etc on a brand new guitar, even if the binding on the low side gets replaced it would still have to be shaved down to the same thin size unless the fingerboard was re-routered to accomodate. My opinion for what it is worth, send it back and see what CME can do about the shipping cost. Good luck, i feel your pain because it could have been a nice player.
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Hi Johnny,
I completely understand your view and I hope it helps the OP.
I agree that it is absurd to re-bind the FB on a new guitar due to sloppy workmanship - well sloppy by design and execution in combination.
But for someone considering re-binding: It is not true at all that the new binding would have to be thinned down like the current binding.
In have done this job several times. It is certainly possible to re-bind an FB and get the full usable width out of resulting FB + binding + frets.
As for sending it back and getting a replacement, I feel that they will all have this artifact.
Many players are not at all troubled by it - as you can notice by Joe’s enthusiasm and great playing on such a guitar. I have also tried a few ES Les Pauls that were bad, but not too bad really in this regard.
In my opinion.
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I have had my 2016 CME figured since September and have never experienced the string slipping off problem. Been congratulating my luck for not having to deal with that. This past weekend a buddy came over and within a minute of playing my pride and joy he’s complaining about the slippage. He is a better player than I but he is a big fella and I do have skinny fingers and a lighter approach to playing. Looking closely at my frets I do not see the severe beveling, or any at all?
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Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Hi string,
To some, a deeply compromised string spacing due to the manufacturer actively making a mess of the guitar is not a solution.
To others it all works just fine.
Some play great on a 1 5/8 nut, others are cramped even on a 1 3/4 nut.
This case gets messy because it is designed as 1 11/16, but in practice needs to be setup like 1 5/8 by the time you accommodate the nibs, “rolled binding”, and ill-advised deeply rounded fret ends.
For some it is a real problem, for others not.
In my opinion, it is frustrating to some because an otherwise great guitar gets compromised through sloppiness.
Chris
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I'm with Stringswinger on this one. It's a great guitar. I've had my 175 a month and I play it and enjoy it every day. The only time I think about needing to fix the nut is when I read threads like this on the forum Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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Maybe I'll do the baking soda fix one day, maybe I won't.
If the E string slips off the fret, I'm blaming my sloppy technique.
FWIW, I've owned a couple of other new Gibsons in the past couple of years -- an LP Junior and a Midtown Custom. They were both the same way.
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Yours does indeed look quite a bit better than most. And if the frets were installed after the binding it could have been even better for fret end finish and practical width. But it works for you, so it is ideal as it is. Originally Posted by TedBPhx
In my opinion, it is not reasonable to expect a given Memphis guitar sent to have fret ends as practical as yours look to be. I think a buyer would do well to expect something more like the OP’s guitar.
In my opinion.
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Wow. This has gotten firey.
The pics of the frets are showing a the neck rotated some. However I do see that the beveling is on the generous side.
I'd address the nut and see if there are any other issues. My six CME Memphis Gibson seem to work okay.
I'd be interested in seeing a straight shot of the fretboard at the 4-12th frets to judge the frets before piling on Gibson. No one bends the E strings on the lowest frets toward the outside of the fretboard.
If it truly needs a refret, I'd send it back. CME should give you a few days to have your luthier evaluate it.
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This is just typical Gibson Memphis quality that I have been seeing since around 2004. Real hit or miss. I bought 4 of these CME 175's. 1 great, 2 good, and 1 with the nut problem.
This one has both E strings riding the cliff. A new nut is a must IMO as long as you are OK with string spacing a bit more narrow. On Joe's the high E was riding the cliff till you got past the 5th fret than it was good so his fix was fine.
Tough call but IMO CME should not of sent one like this to Europe. I would send it back on there dime. Like pt Chris pointed out the sloppy binding is unforgivable. I am not a fan of this hand rolled binding unless it was done right and we are seeing too many that are not.
As always I am Gibson's biggest critic/fan. I spend a lifetime sifting thru the turds to get to the Promise Land.
Trouble is it is the only guitar brand I like. LOL !
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