The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by LtKojak
    Oh, I see. I totally missed the part of being an electric L-5. Sorry!

    Fun fact: my late uncle, Roberto Nicholson, who built custom-ordered classical guitars for the top pro argentinian folk artists in the late '60s, early 70s, like Eduardo Falu' and Atahualpa Yupanqui, or tango players like Ubaldo de Lio, just to name a few, patented the concept of a double-bodied guitar, specifically a smaller but fully-vibrant second body inside the body of the guitar, making the case that this concept made the projection of the vibration produced by the smaller body and both tops working in tandem and in harmony with each other, better and louder.

    The depositary of the patent was Casa Nunez, the guitar-making company he worked for.
    As we say in Argentina: ¡Que bárbaro, che!
    Or for you, perhaps: Che figata!

    Roli

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by rolijen
    ¡Que bárbaro, che!
    Viste como és chico el mundo, chabòn?

    Roli, last time I've checked, Central Illinois was not Argentina...? Am I missing something...?

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by LtKojak
    Well... it resembles me too. A LOT!

    Er du min længe tabte tvillingbror? Jeg har faktiskt boet i Esbjerg for naeste femten år!
    I was my patents only child, so no, I'm not your lost twin. As for Esbjerg, it's less than an hours drive from where I live. You would find it changed if you came back. There's hardly any fishermen left and part of the harbour is in the proces of being filled up, so the city doesn't smell of fish anymore (people there used to say it smelled of money when we from out of town frowned). Instead it has become the base of the off shore oil industry.

    Det er meget sjældent, at man ser nogen skrive på dansk her i forum'et, så jeg bliver helt rørt.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by LtKojak
    Viste como és chico el mundo, chabòn?

    Roli, last time I've checked, Central Illinois was not Argentina...? Am I missing something...?
    Hace muchísimos años, vivimos alla en la Argentina. Ahora, hacemos el asado y comemos nuestros alfajores aquí, en Illinois.

    When I was young, lived in Argentina. Miss it a lot! Great food and great people!

    Roli

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldane
    I was my patents only child, so no, I'm not your lost twin. As for Esbjerg, it's less than an hours drive from where I live. You would find it changed if you came back. There's hardly any fishermen left and part of the harbour is in the proces of being filled up, so the city doesn't smell of fish anymore (people there used to say it smelled of money when we from out of town frowned). Instead it has become the base of the off shore oil industry.

    Det er meget sjældent, at man ser nogen skrive på dansk her i forum'et, så jeg bliver helt rørt.
    Det lugter ikke af fisk, det lugter af penge! Det var Esbjergs motto. Og det derefter også var centret for off-shore folk når jeg boede der. De få venner jeg havde, udover musikere, faktisk var off-shore ingeniører og platform vedligeholdelse arbejdere.

    Siden jag kom til Italien i 1998, har jeg ikke snakket med nogen på dansk, så føler jeg rustigt når jeg prøver.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by rolijen
    Hace muchísimos años, vivimos alla en la Argentina. Ahora, hacemos el asado y comemos nuestros alfajores aquí, en Illinois.Roli
    Decime, son argentinos trasplantados en gringolandia o americanos repatriados?

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by LtKojak
    Decime, son argentinos trasplantados en gringolandia o americanos repatriados?
    ¡Gringolandeses repatriados, ja ja ja!

  9. #33

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    This guy first came to mind, from the classical guitar world:

    Dionisio Aguado's Tripodium - Early Guitars and Vihuela

  10. #34

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    Evidently the solution is to eat less cake.

    But seriously? Well the classic rhythm guitar position can be almost horizontal.

    Ways or devices to let the back of the guitar resonate-1200px-fredguyloc-jpg

    But this hardly conducive to chord melody playing and so on which may require stretches.

    George Van Eps' posture:

    Ways or devices to let the back of the guitar resonate-download-1-jpg

    I find the Dynarette guitar cushion a good ergonomic alternative to using a foot stool or crossing my legs. Pasquale Grasso uses one:

    Ways or devices to let the back of the guitar resonate-grassommc-jpg

    Here we have classical posture, basically. I think he's still able to angle the guitar back a bit - as a he plays a nice resonant archtop this probably a consideration for him.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by bleakanddivine
    This is only an issue when standing up, yes? When I play sitting down there is always several inches of clearance between the guitar back and my body. In fact I would find it quite unnatural to play with the back braced hard against my body, except at the rims of course.
    Yes.

    This is why I usually play swing stuff seated when it's a nice quiet gig....

    When playing a loud gig with drums and a primarily amplified sound, damping the vibrations from the back of the guitar is a very good idea.... Standing is a simple way to achieve this. Or playing a guitar like a 175 instead of resonant carved guitar.

    It all depends on context...

    BTW, this doesn't seem to affect Selmer-Macaferri guitars so much. I think they traditionally had laminate back & sides? Correct me if I'm wrong.

  12. #36

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    James Chirillo is talking about setting up your guitar for non amplified playing in this video:


    P.S. he starts playing rhythm changes on one string at 6.00

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by rolijen
    ¡Gringolandeses repatriados, ja ja ja!
    "Gringolandeses", eh...?

    Me gusta esta palabra, un verdadero neologismo.

    Buen provecho con esos alfajores... son los de maizena o los Havanna marplatenses?

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by LtKojak
    "Gringolandeses", eh...?

    Me gusta esta palabra, un verdadero neologismo.

    Buen provecho con esos alfajores... son los de maizena o los Havanna marplatenses?
    ¡Visité la empressa Havanna algunas veces cuando vivía en Mar Del Plata! Para la navidad, mis hijos me regalaron muchos alfajores Havanna (los de cobertura chocolate semiamargo) y un pote de dulce de leche Havanna también. ¡Riquísimos!

    Voy a aumentar en peso tanto que la guitarra no pudiera resonar debido a la panza.

  15. #39

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    I attended an Eliot Fisk classical guitar master class in the late 90’s. (Too the disappointment of other partipants Eliot enjoyed my selection of the first piece so much, he had me perform a second example from the same suite, which cut into his limited time.)

    At that event Eliot played his Humphrey. Humphrey was a cutting edge design with a sloped fingerboard and few were made and this was my first opportunity to see a “real” one rather than the licensed Martin version. This evening the Humphrey had fitted to the back a second Brasizlian body that provided about an inch gap from the standardard body. When asked about it, Eliot replied that it was supposed to to allow the body resonate rather be muffled as he held it against himself.

    I saw Eliot about a year later and was fortunate to be on hand rehearsal night and performance night and for a performance of Concierto De Aranjuaz with a full orchestra. To add to my fortune, I dined with him the evening of the public performance. He had the Humphrey, but not the contraption. When I asked him about it he replied it was not worth the bulk.

  16. #40

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    I was on the late Thomas Humphrey's list in 2006. $8000 for a BRW Millennium. Regrettably, he passed away in April 2008.

    Manuel Contreras had the Doble Tapa and Jose Ramirez III had De Camara designs which were the same thing: an inner rosewood back made to resonate. No other luthier saw much worth in it and it never caught on.

    The carved backs of archtop guitars are much more reflective of soundwaves than live-back resonant. I doubt there is much to be gained from not beer-gut damping it especially for a plugged in electric archtop guitar.

    With the plinky mandolins perhaps they need all the help they can get. That Tone Gard contraption makes a 3.375" deep (rim depth) archtop even deeper. It becomes unwieldy real fast. I don't think I'd enjoy thin cold wires pressing on my gut.

  17. #41

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    With a carved top and back, you get a lot of resonance and vibration. It's really noticeable with the 18" Wu I recently acquired. If I hold the back up against my body I can really feel the back vibrate, and I also notice that it's not as loud to my ears. Not a huge difference in volume, but it's there. It's also very big, and holding it at an angle is much more comfortable for me. I don't feel nearly as much vibration with my 175, being laminated front and back, but there is still some.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    With a carved top and back, you get a lot of resonance and vibration. It's really noticeable with the 18" Wu I recently acquired. If I hold the back up against my body I can really feel the back vibrate, and I also notice that it's not as loud to my ears. Not a huge difference in volume, but it's there. It's also very big, and holding it at an angle is much more comfortable for me. I don't feel nearly as much vibration with my 175, being laminated front and back, but there is still some.
    I've found the same thing with my archtop, which is very thinly built and light. When I'm sitting and the back is against my body the tone is different than when when I hold it away. (My guitar amplifies my stomach growling when I drink coffee while practicing. It always cracks me up but I'm easily amused.) OTOH, I think that would be a disadvantage in a louder, amplified situation due to feedback. A laminated or heavier build might be a better tool.

    I originally got a ToneGard because I was playing 100% acoustic with other musicians who valued volume. I wasn't comfortable playing a bigger instrument so I used the one I'm comfortable playing and got a few more db of volume and the tone of a guitar with the back freely vibrating. (I still wasn't loud enough though but I asked them back off a bit when I was playing)

    For me, the Tonegard helped in an acoustic music context. YMMV
    Last edited by Gramps; 01-15-2018 at 09:30 PM.

  19. #43

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    Thanks for bringing the ToneGard to my attention. Looks like a great idea.

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by GNAPPI
    It's all about angles...

    Attachment 49597
    Dayum- this stick figure guy needs to work out !

    Side note- I know very little about Wes Montgomery but I suspect in his earlier practice routines he was looking at the Fingerboard a lot.
    Later he outgrew this mostly but the Guitar Position remained.

    Not done for back resonance - totally a wild guess on my part.

    On my Super Strat Koa with blocked trem - I left off the backplate for a louder unplugged Sound to make it more fun...it's about as loud as a 335 Unplugged.

    Interesting question- when the back is right against your body ..can you actually hear the effect of muting through your Rig ?

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    Dayum- this stick figure guy needs to work out !

    Side note- I know very little about Wes Montgomery but I suspect in his earlier practice routines he was looking at the Fingerboard a lot.
    Later he outgrew this mostly but the Guitar Position remained.

    Not done for back resonance - totally a wild guess on my part.

    On my Super Strat Koa with blocked trem - I left off the backplate for a louder unplugged Sound to make it more fun...it's about as loud as a 335 Unplugged.

    Interesting question- when the back is right against your body ..can you actually hear the effect of muting through your Rig ?
    Yeah I would guess that Wes wasn’t particularly doing it for the sound either.

    I actually do hear a difference through the amp, though it is small. With headphones on to block out any acoustic sound I A-B’ed it and there is certainly a difference. Which makes sense since the body is resonating differently. If I was playing solo guitar then I would say I prefer the electric tone with the back vibrating freely but in a group setting I doubt it would be noticeable, and it sounds a little more focused out of the amp with the back inhibited. Not to mention the feedback issues if the back were vibrating at higher playing volumes.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  22. #46

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    Having the back vibrate freely is a double-edged Swiss Army knife. It may sound marginally louder/better, but it also allows earlier feedback. Different people prefer to cut with different edges. For me, it depends on the guitar.

  23. #47

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    Top end acoustic luthiers make the back as stiff as possible. The product does not matter, they would use concrete if it meant reducing a loss of energy through the back. They try and get as much of the energy through the top as possible.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  24. #48

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    Interesting and realistic replies- especially when Recording and even moreso IMO recording Direct thru Cab IR's a lot of subtleties are audible- some are clearly audible even to non musicians -some more subtle.

    This for example was a good blind test - I have been checking out different Guitars and an unusually Resonant thin line Hollow I noticed in Demos AND a few Guys here remarked about how full it is -Heritage H 525 - Vibrating back DOES apparently come into play ( and Play ).

    The Heritage H 525 even with P90s ( I'd rather have Humbuckers with coil cuts ) is a Phatt Resonant Guitar .I noticed in Demos before I knew anything about it .( I don't care about the Thinline or not - I like some Archtops too- especially with lots of sustain).

    I actually asked Heritage IF they would make one with Humbuckers and how IS it so Phatt ?

    Turns out - there is a ( Trapeze tailpiece ) 'backer board ' under the Bridge -

    But it does NOT go all the way through to the back of the Guitar so the back and top are free to vibrate .

    It's more than I want to spend ( I need another Midi Preproduction Rig too) but I suspect with Humbuckers would be the King Slimline Hollow ( for Resonance ).

  25. #49

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    The back plays a big roll in the tone of an acoustic archtop guitar. I can tell you that the back must flex in order to fully contribute to the final tone. A too stiff back is something I successfully avoid during construction by measuring the deflection of the back plate under a known force. Here is a back plate flexing .004" under a 3lb weight.
    Ways or devices to let the back of the guitar resonate-p1010031-jpg

    The top and back plate can be measured for deflection in this manner. All plates are unique and this is a way of measuring how flexible a plate is at any stage of carving or bracing. This helps improve consistency in the final product.

  26. #50

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    Depending on the construction a guitar back can resonate a lot- or not. In the second case the extreme can be called a pure 'reflector' back; the player can hardly influence the sound and damping by holding such an instrument in a certain way.

    The first case, the 'resonator' (or 'coupling') back, is much more interesting, though, in practice, most archtop guitar backs are a fixed, balanced mix between the 'reflector' and the 'resonator' principles - depending, of course, on the knowledge and skills of the maker.

    Violin-related archtop guitar makers see the 'resonator' back the following way, and this is where our simple looking toys get a bit complicated and confusing. The advantage of arched plates is that we can use a tailpiece to take the string tension and that the arching adds a lot of stiffness to the guitar body, so that we can put much more energy into the system - and hopefully get more out than on a flat-top guitar.
    An explanation by Alan Carruth:
    >> The top is the only part of the guitar that's driven directly by the strings that's also a reasonably effective sound producer. Everything else, and the back in particular, has to get energy via the top in some way if it's to produce sound. There are two ways the top can drive the back:

    1) through pressure changes in the box,
    2) through forces transmitted by the sides.

    Both the pressure changes in the box and the forces on the sides are highest in the bass reflex range, when the top is moving in and out like a speaker cone. The back responds to these changes, and can move like a speaker itself. Note that the force on the back from air pressure changes and the force from the sides is out of phase: the air pushes on the center of the back (mostly) while the sides push on the edge. If they're both pushing in the same direction the back just moves in translation, rather than pumping air.

    Near the 'main air' resonance the movement of air through the hole is 'out of phase' with the top motion: the air moves 'out' while the top moves 'in'. Some of the air just slides over to where the top was, and this reduces the amount of sound the guitar produces. If the back is 'active' in this range, and is mostly driven by the air pressure change in the box, it can help move air through the hole, and enhance the output of the guitar. This is usually the case with most 'normal' guitars; Ovations have backs that don't move enough in this range to help, and it's one of the reasons they sound the way they do.

    As you get above the bass reflex frequency range (say, from about the open G string up) the back tends to be a 'loser': any energy that you feed into it is less likely to make sound than the same amount of energy fed into the top, so back resonances usually show up as 'dips' in the response curve. This is not all bad. Like the internal air resonances (which also tend to be 'losers' because most of them don't 'talk' to the sound hole) the higher back resonances contribute to 'tone color'. Those dips in the spectrum make some overtones of the strings weaker than others, giving each note it's own sound. Since our senses are set up to detect differences, this gives us something to home in on.<<


    Maybe it's not so difficult to understand for violin makers: if the back has a 'main resonance mode' that is close in pitch to the 'main top mode', it will couple strongly, both with the main top mode and the main air mode (Helmholtz resonance). The result is more output at the main air pitch, and a broader spectral peak at the main top pitch. The majority of full-hollow body archtop guitar players will endorse such a result.

    The problems for any inexperienced luthier, striving for making a resonant and lively archtop guitar, could be that
    1. the main modes on the top and back, as usually determined by plate tuning (tapping, flexing across and along the grain, and twisting - just a few use measuring devices -), are not supposed to end up on top of each other. That can lead to weak and dead spots and wolf notes.
    2. the modes of the isolated plates change after the box is closed. For example, the main top mode will drop with time when the strings' forces and the stiffening (bracing) through the bridge have been applied. These changes are somewhat predictable to an experienced luthier who 1. is interested in making more than the average sounding, consistently good archtop guitars, 2. is keeping record with what and why he constructed and made, and 3. who is able to read the wood.

    The "modern" CNC techniques and kiln-dried wood supplies, no longer closely connected to the maker, may be helpful to get quickly to the rough result, but the refined rest has still to be learned and accomplished by hard-earned craftsmanship. There's no way around this - except one lowers the demands of the customers by
    smart and continuous marketing efforts, which in the internet age is easier than ever to accomplish. Exceptions confirm the rule.

    Fortunately, on the bandstand, in jazz and related genres, all this doesn't matter too much: we are used to take advantage of great pickup systems, mics and the PA.