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Originally Posted by Michael Kaye
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01-12-2018 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by electricfactory
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Originally Posted by kenhan
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Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
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Many thanks, Meggy!
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Just to update further - having had the Alto TS210 speaker a few days now.
So - I will admit at first I thought the FRFR powered speaker idea could be a mistake, as I wasn't greatly pleased with the sounds I was getting straight away. Also I would say to anyone considering this kind of setup, using amp/cab/mic models, with an FRFR speaker, that if you imagine it will be just like having a Fender Twin one minute, and then being able to switch to having a sound just like another nice amp, and so on - ... it won't. Like it or not, the sound is not coming from a normal guitar cab or combo amp, and that does have an effect. Plus, the tone includes a mic model as well, so another difference. I think this is all stuff that comes under the "not having an amp in the room" heading - it's been talked about on the web, and a reason why some people don't like this kind of setup. I wouldn't want to overstate it, but it's a thing.
But - I have spent some time tweaking things, experimenting, and I do now have a clean sound I like very much indeed. This is using the Fender Twin amp model, with a different cab (one of the 1x12" models) and I forget which mic model. There is also the facility with the mic models to cut some high and low frequencies - you can control the cutoff frequencies - which is very helpful. Also just getting the amp model eq controls where I like them is a big thing. The speaker cab models have a huge effect, so well worth trying different ones. With this kind of setup, and it's really a plus in the end, there is a huge amount one can do to change and influence the sound - for better or worse. So not a case of switch on and instant tone nirvana, but with a bit of work, and trying things (and there's a lot to try), very good sounds can be found.
One thing I personally like very much is just the "hi fi" aspect (whether authentic or not) - the detail and clarity in the tone is very striking. You really can "hear the string windings", and note-separation within chords is fantastic. The Alto speaker does not seem to lack in terms of sound fidelity in this respect. The sound fidelity seems to me to be a positive quality of the Helix/FRFR setup in it's own right, and actually an improvement over the real guitar amps I've used over the years (although I've never owned a Fender Twin, so maybe those are just as good?). At the moment I'm just getting a few patches set up at home, with a few key tones I will need for band use - at some stage I'll take the setup to a rehearsal and try things at band volume. There may well be some more adjustment needed then, I will see. And if that works out, then I guess the next step is an actual gig. But this is a different way of doing things, with a learning curve involved, and not something that one can just jump straight into overnight - at least this is how it seems to me.
The Helix itself remains lovely, and great fun - if I had to negotiate complicated sub-menus and non-intuitive editing procedures to find my sounds, I don't think it would work for me, but happily this is not the case. It's a pleasure to use, and encourages experiment. And yes, it can do a fine job for jazz, but if all you really want is one great clean jazz tone (and certainly if you already have that) then I'd say don't make your life more complicated than it needs to be. Myself, I certainly won't be selling my Polytone - for a certain kind of jazz sound, that can't be beat, and I wouldn't want to lose the ability to just take a guitar and amp to a jazz gig. But the Helix is allowing me to explore a whole lot of other sounds and possibilities - if you have the urge to do that, then it's great.
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Sounds like you're having fun. that's great, Meggy.
The only thing I'll add (and this is not specific to you, Meggy, but a general comment about the Helix) is that it should be understood that the Helix is not a "guitar simulator" on it's own. It won't make a mid series Ibanez archtop sound like an L-5, nor is it designed to do that on it's own. And I guess that the short story is that the fidelity of the unit is pretty true to the guitar that you connect to it, in general. Which is maybe the long way of saying, you get out of it what you put in to it.
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Originally Posted by Michael Kaye
But try one if you can, anybody who's interested - at a music store would be worthwhile if they gave you an hour or so, or perhaps better if you already have a friend who would let you try their setup, and perhaps try setting up a tone to your taste - that would tell you a lot I think.
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Thanks for all the comments, I've been using a modelling rig for 3 years now, and I won't go back, maybe just get a Mambo 8 for small stuff.
The "hi-fi" aspect you mention, is part of what appeals to me. Unlike what lots of people think, products like the Helix don't model guitar amps, they model MICED guitar amps, which is quite a different thing.
My rig is quite small and simple right now, but one day I think I'l get an Helix or an AX8.
Meggy, you should try with 3rd party Impulse Responses, that should make a big difference. I can send you a few good IRs, if you wish!
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Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
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PM replied!
My rig is a Logidy EPSi for impulse respondes, a Zoom G3n for effects, a "preamp in a box" pedal and a passive DI. I have several preamp pedals, the ones I like the most are my Polytone in a pedal (see thread) and a blackface pedal Jon Mambo did for me, that I hope he releases soon. I also have an Amplifire, that I don't enjoy for modelling, when I use it I use it just for fx, IRs and DI - with a preamp pedal before.
I love Redwirez and Ownhammer, everything they do is great. As for speakers, Jensens are cool for that vintage Fender sound and EV-12L are spectacular for a more mid heavy jazz modern sound. Ownhammer also did some Altec 417-H files that work well. in general, I don't like Celestions for jazz, the exception being the G12-65. Unfortunately more modern speakers are not widely available, I happen to have some Cannabis Rex impulses that are maybe my favourite of all, but the seller does not sell them currently. Of course, Dr Bonkers Polytone files are excellent for that Poly sound we all love.
One other thing I recommend messing with modellers is the compressor. If you have a good studio compressor in the Helix, it can make a hell of a difference when it comes to clean sounds, just some polishing on the edges, no squashy Frusciante sounds.
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Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
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Hi Meggy, Cool that you keep this alive with your progress. I know that the learning curve is long from my own experience with the Line 6 POD. I have found that I could/can sit with it for a hour or so and be enthralled with all it can do, and then suddenly tire of it and give up at that point, only to start again at a later time and discover new things. Unfortunately I know no one who has one of the devises otherwise I would have tried it a long time ago.
Btw, above you and jorgemg have referred to IR. What is that function?
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Originally Posted by Meggy
I'm not technically inclined, so I'll do my best. Impulse Responses are WAV files that have "snapshots" of a certain guitar cab, speaker, mic and eventually preamp, mixer, power amp. They're very accurate, in my experience! In my experience, this is the decisive part of a modelling rig, much more than the amp simulation... a good IR is essential.
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Thanks to Jorge for helping re impulse responses - what are they? is indeed a very good question - I'm still not entirely clear myself, and not technically minded either. From my own practical point of view, they are things that can be put in an effect chain on the Helix, and which give the sound qualities of "something" - where that "something" can be a cab/speaker/mic combination, or an acoustic guitar (I've already got some acoustic guitar IRs for when I need to get an acoustic sound on gigs), and probably other things too. So they represent aspects of a sound-producing system anyhow, in the form of a response of that system to a short sound (impulse), stored as a short wav file - this can then be used to modify a signal in modelling units like the Helix. Something like that anyhow!
I think the existing factory cab/mic models in the Helix probably use IRs, but one can also buy (or free download for some) third party IRs at fairly low cost, and install them on the Helix to use - and it seems this is recommended as a way to getting best results.
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Meggy and Jorge
One of you mentioned that there are programs that can be used to create IR´s. Could you mention a couple?
It has also been mentioned that there are sites where free IR´s may be downloaded from, could a couple of those be referred to? It would be much appreciated, 0zoro
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I have managed to find a site with IR´s, however nothing that I believe relates to jazz sounds, only metal like references. If there are jazz sites, or rather sites that include jazz sounding IR´s it would be appreciated.
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Ozoro - Jorge did give a few pointers in the post below - avoid nearly all the Celestion speaker IRs seems to be one take home! And Dr Bonkers site looks good for Polytone cab impulses: Guitar Cabinet Files | Dr. Bonkers Sound Lab
Just from the brief bit of experimenting I've done so far with speaker cab models, I tend to find that the single or dual speaker cabs work better for me, and less so the 4x12s. Although I guess keep an open mind with these things.
Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
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As to programs to create IRs - not something I know about at all (yet). Maybe someone's done a guide on Youtube or something?
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Hi, Ozoro!
Sorry for the delay.
I've already mentioned a few good sites, check them out.
I'm not aware of good free IRs for jazz.
I'm also not familiar with software to create IRs, although I know there are a few. Creating a good IR is VERY hard, and there are so many good ones for cheap, I never bothered. There's also a few software programs to edit IRs, but I also never bothered with that - and software to load IRs, if you connect your guitar to a PC.
If you want I can send you a few IRs, just for you to see how it works, but you wuld need some modelling device or computer software to load them.
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Jorge, that would be very nice. What kind of software do I need?
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I never used any software, but I have read good things about this one
FREE Impulse Response Loader-PULSE Guitar Cabinet IR loading Plugin
Shoot me a PM with your e-mail, and I'll hook you up with the files!
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I will check it all out Jorge. Very generous of you to take the time and energy! Thanks!
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I keep dragging this thread back - just yet another report with a few findings.
- I bought a couple of patches from here: Helix Patches - not a huge outlay, and I just wanted to see how that would work out (I bought the "Litiga" and "Cartographer" patches). Maybe there are good things I can learn from studying how the patches are put together, and there are some things I like about them, and I'll perhaps use them as starting points to modify from. But I think I'm inclined to stick to creating my own patches in future - it's interesting to see what someone else likes, and also interesting to see how that can be quite different to my own taste in certain ways. But really, I think the key is to trust one's own ears.
I've been trying some of the sample impulse responses Jorge kindly sent me - they make a huge difference. The Polytone cabinet IRs from Dr Bonkers:
Guitar Cabinet Files | Dr. Bonkers Sound Lab
...are IMO a must have purchase for anyone playing clean jazz with a Helix - maybe I say that as a long time Polytone user, but straight away, these took my clean jazz tone up a notch or two, compared to the best I'd had before using the stock Helix cab models. I will shortly be purchasing the full set myself, not expensive, and they do something highly nice and useful I can't find anywhere else.
I've got a lot of experimenting with other IRs to do - besides the Polytone stuff, I will want to also have more shimmery, open kind of cleans - but still have to decide exactly which amp, cab or IR models will best do that for me. I did download the free "American Custom" IRs from Rosen Digital Audio: customCabs - Rosen Digital Audio - just 3 IR files, all similar, but on first trying they seem really excellent, needed a bit of bass cut (easily done on the Helix) but really good-sounding. You have to put them in a basket, set up an account, and provide details as with any other purchase, but well worth the trouble - I may go back and buy some more of their stuff.
As is typical, I have a load of gigs coming up all at once in the next week, after a while with not many at all. Anyhow, I think I will be brave and give the Helix and Alto TS210 cab setup a tryout at a couple of them - it will be interesting if nothing else. I guess I'll also have my Polytone with me, just in case, but I'm optimistic I won't need it.
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Hello Meggy
A bit of water has passed under the bridge, and a few notes across the fretboard, so I thought I would pop in and ask how things are going for you? Is sound development moving in the right direction? Have you found a great difference in sound produced after having channeled through the Alto? Was the sound too coloured when initially channeled through your amp, what ever model that was. How have you found the IR´s as a base for personal tuning after installation? How did the gig/gigs go witht he new bit of kit, did it work out or did you use the back up? There you see, this was not only a social visit, my curiosity is still high. Hope alls well!
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