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electricfactory - I will have to listen to all your tracks through some decent headphones, and then will have a crack and say which I prefer. It may well turn out to be a Fractal track for all I know, but I doubt it will put me off my Helix. Fun though, and cheers for posting.
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01-06-2018 01:57 PM
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Hi Meggy, this is all very interesting and I am learning a thing or two. Do I understand correctly that for example the Yamaha DXR10 is all that is needed behind a Helix? That being as the speaker is powered in itself? Thus giving full room to the Helix to "colour" the sound as preferred?
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Yes, that seems to be the idea as far as I can tell. Or you can have the FRFR speaker near you, and also send an output directly from the Helix to the PA system at the same time (the FRFR speaker will have a role somewhat like a monitor, but just with the guitar signal). Again, on various forums, some people seem not too keen on this kind of setup - they say they miss the feel/effect of having a real guitar cab behind them, which I can understand. For example, playing through a real Fender Twin combo behind you, with it's two 12 inch speakers, cannot sound or feel quite the same as a Fender Twin model, where the speakers and a microphone are modeled as well as the amp, and then all that modeled sound is put through an FRFR speaker. I suppose the sound you hear from FRFR is more like what the audience would also hear at a bigger gig where the guitar amp is mic-ed up, and then that signal put through a PA system to them. I suspect I will be fine with this myself, but it is a consideration.
Originally Posted by 0zoro
So I guess a bit different from what we are used to as guitarists - some will like it, others won't. I suppose one good thing is that the guitarist hears something closer to how it sounds to the audience. Kind of a paradox maybe - a more accurate representation of the sound the audience hears, but at the same time, cannot be a perfect replica of how it would be to actually have a guitar amp in the room, so less accurate in that sense. Also, I think it's worth noting that you can do things like put delay and other effects in the signal chain after the amp/cab/mic modeling - similar to what bands do from the mixing desk at bigger gigs. My brief try out of some of the presets set up like this, even just with my far from ideal Cube combo amp, did seem to indicate that this is a worthwhile facility to have.
And again, this is all me conjecturing somewhat - as I say, I'm not speaking from very much experience at all, so happy to be corrected if anyone knows better.
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Hi Meggy, and thanks for your replies! Now that I know what a FRFR speaker is in function, next questions arise. How does one know if a powered speaker is FRFR? I just used the Yamaha DXR10 as an example and looked at Thomanns site, it was listed under category "active full range speaker". Is this a synonym for FRFR? Where does one read up on the subject?
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I got my Helix 1,5 years ago and have gigged with it maybe 50 times so far - I mainly use it for commercial gigs with cover bands etc. but many times I also need to play dinner music so a good jazz tone is always a MUST for me. I was a Boss GT user for the past 15 years or so , quite familiar with multi-fx machines and I know that it can take quite a while to dial in quality tones that are actually useful on stage. Many users "only" fool around with these machines in their home and often enough they get mediocre results - on stage they are a really big help in reducing clutter, excessive noise, cutting setup/breakdown time, saving trips to/from the car, etc. PLUS the engineers love them ;-) For amplification I use a powered speaker cab/monitor wedge on the floor in front of me - my fellow musicians really appreciate this !
It took me maybe 6 weeks of dilligent fiddling with the thing before I was able to dial in my sounds quickly and confidently, being able to change things on the fly at soundcheck - it's been worth the work ! The Helix is so powerful, has way more features than one usually needs , the possibilities are endless and only your creativity is the limiting factor. EVERYTHING else is pure personal preference, opinion and ability (patience is a virtue) /willingness to learn. I can only speak for myself and from my experiences and I recommend the Helix without hesitation. I got a nice gigbag from MONO for it, which has room to spare for all my cables, a guitarstand and an extra
Ernie Ball volume pedal (I use the pedal on the unit for wah and for changing other parameters in real time). So for stage use this is working like a charm for me - at home I would not need it, having a MAC computer with an Apogee DUET interface for recording in LOGIC.
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Sounds interesting, I might have to try the newest Line6 iteration...
My back story is: I tried several times up to the floor version HD500 (I think this was the name) and always gave up, mainly because of dynamics. Of course, maybe I just was to dumb etc., but I really tried my best
At the time I also played lap steel (I still do when I have the time) and I could never get over strange jumps when playing very dynamically. It seemed to me that the gain in my preferred models was somehow stepped in critical areas when it begins to breakup into mild distortion. The transition didn't always sound "organic" (for lack of a better term).
Probably something no one besides me could hear;-), but it drove me crazy during practicing.
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I would say that the frequency response curve for the speaker is something you can look at Ozoro - if it's stays generally around the same level give or take a few decibels from around 60 or 70 Hz up to 20,000 Hz then that seems pretty good to me. For example, you can download a data sheet for the Yamaha DXR series here: Originally Posted by 0zoro
DXR Series - Downloads - Speakers - Professional Audio - Products - Yamaha - UK and Ireland
...which includes frequency response graphs. Of course, the flatness of the response curve is not going to be the only consideration. I guess I'm going to basically take a punt on this one anyhow, and buy something that seems well regarded as an FRFR speaker, with as much power as possible, and obviously within my budget. DXR10 seems a prime contender at the moment.
Re the Helix - the company seems set to continue adding more effects and amp/cab models with each new firmware update. One disappointing thing for me is that there is no acoustic guitar simulator effect. I suppose a lot of people will think they are a bit lowbrow to include on a high end product, but for some of us who play in covers bands sometimes, and just want to take one guitar to a gig - it can be occasionally useful - doesn't have to be the greatest acoustic sound in the world, just something that works for the odd number. Not everyone who buys a Helix will want to get a Variax guitar, or an electro-acoustic, or have a piezo system on their favourite electric. So hoping they sort that one out before too long. There are apparently some work-arounds to get an acoustic-ish sound from the Helix though, and some people sell suitable patches, so I'll investigate all that. I wouldn't mind a nice modulated reverb effect also - I'm sure they will be working on these things though.
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Meggy,
Don't know if someone else posted this but there are acoustic IR's that you can download for free at the Line6.com Forum;
Go to the Line6.com website, click on the Forums link at the bottom of the page. Join this forum. Under Community Support at the top of the page you'll see Multi-Effects Units, click on HELIX. At the top of the page you'll see CUSTOMETONE, cllick on that tab then click on the HELIX icon. Boom, welcome to free-download-ville! Type in the word ACOUSTIC into the serach box, welcome to ten(10) pages of some the best acoustic guitar IR's ever!
Originally Posted by Meggy
I would say that the frequency response curve for the speaker is something you can look at Ozoro - if it's stays generally around the same level give or take a few decibels from around 60 or 70 Hz up to 20,000 Hz then that seems pretty good to me. For example, you can download a data sheet for the Yamaha DXR series here:
DXR Series - Downloads - Speakers - Professional Audio - Products - Yamaha - UK and Ireland
...which includes frequency response graphs. Of course, the flatness of the response curve is not going to be the only consideration. I guess I'm going to basically take a punt on this one anyhow, and buy something that seems well regarded as an FRFR speaker, with as much power as possible, and obviously within my budget. DXR10 seems a prime contender at the moment.
Re the Helix - the company seems set to continue adding more effects and amp/cab models with each new firmware update. One disappointing thing for me is that there is no acoustic guitar simulator effect. I suppose a lot of people will think they are a bit lowbrow to include on a high end product, but for some of us who play in covers bands sometimes, and just want to take one guitar to a gig - it can be occasionally useful - doesn't have to be the greatest acoustic sound in the world, just something that works for the odd number. Not everyone who buys a Helix will want to get a Variax guitar, or an electro-acoustic, or have a piezo system on their favourite electric. So hoping they sort that one out before too long. There are apparently some work-arounds to get an acoustic-ish sound from the Helix though, and some people sell suitable patches, so I'll investigate all that. I wouldn't mind a nice modulated reverb effect also - I'm sure they will be working on these things though.
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How cool is that? Thanks electricfactory - the reality of all these free downloads had yet to really sink in with me - one of the advantages of being onboard with a major product line like the Helix I guess! Appreciate the pointers, will follow this up this evening. Originally Posted by electricfactory
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Ozoro - just out of interest, and since you were asking questions - I find this video about FRFR for guitar to be pretty good:
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Thanks Meggy! I appreciate it, I too found it helpful. These new contraptions certainly do make a difference, and getting the right ones in the right place (at the right price) when its all new is a considerable challenge. How are things going for you with the Helix?
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I'm going to add this video to the mix as an example but it's more about the various ways the Helix can be used. This guys tends to like heavy effects so you may not like the tones he's getting but it does show playing through various FRFR systems including a regular amp.
I'll also post one up showing how he uses snapshots, again, thus is more about how you can use the Helix and not about his specific tone.
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and snapshots...
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Hi MK, thanks for setting these up here! I can really relate to the ease and the variety of sounds that were displayed in the vid´s, which is the entire attraction with these devices. On the other hand I can not relate to any of the sounds this fellow was producing, which is a bit of a drag. I have entirely different sounds in my head, and do so wonder if a Helix will get there, but yes, you did warn me. Thanks for the effort though, I am sitll interested in the device.
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yeah. I'd like to take that back haha. I did warn you. oh well hopefully you can glean some info out them that might be helpful. and hopefully it won't discourage you.
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here. I can sooth your ears a little
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Cheers Ozoro - things are going very well I'd say - I have a couple of patches programmed in of my own - a clean and a lead type. Especially with the clean one, using snapshots (which I still need to do), I could cover all the tones I would use for a gig with my pop covers group, and also for jazz fusion stuff. I've also now downloaded a few free patches (including two for acoustic sims), plus downloaded a whole load of free impulse responses - it's fairly easy to find links for these if one searches around on the Line 6 forum. Quite a lot of the impulse response are acoustic guitar sounds (that I can use in the acoustic patches) and others are various cab/microphone combinations. Originally Posted by 0zoro
I am itching to get hold of an FRFR powered speaker (or just maybe two), and am still assessing the various options - maybe I will organise a trip to a retailer to try a few and compare. To be honest I don't think I'll really be in a good position to assess the clean jazz tone capabilities of the Helix until I have the FRFR powered speaker sorted. But... ...it is a beautiful machine all the same, and there is no question that it will be replacing the pedal board setup I've had up until now - it's so much nicer to use, and can cover all the sounds I would want, and overall the sound quality is better. I will be selling all, or nearly all of my pedals, power supply, pedal board and case, so hope to recoup a bit of the expense of the Helix.
I've been using the HX Edit software with the Helix plugged into my PC today, and can report that this is also really nice and intuitive to use. It was funny - after installing some IRs on the Helix, I forgot and left it connected to the laptop's USB port, and an output still going to my Cube amp. When I went on Youtube to watch some videos, the sound came out the guitar amp automatically - cool that you can use the Helix for this sort of stuff - you can imagine having a couple of FRFR speakers, and playing along with tracks/videos from computer with the Helix's effects/patches, pretty handy!
Anyhow, in my opinion, it's a gorgeous bit of kit - it won't replace going straight into my Polytone Minibrute for some jazz gigs, but no regrets at all about getting it, it's a great thing.
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Meggy, good to hear!
Michael Kaye, I wasn´t offended or anything like that if you got that impression. Sometimes my humour may be difficult to discover, much less appreciate. I am still intrigued with the machine, perhaps more so, and will probably make it in to a shop near by for a trail next month or so when I have the time.
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no no not at all. I was trying to be funny too and keep it light. imagine posting that clip on a jazz site! Originally Posted by 0zoro
although I truly believe the Helix is marketed more to the rock crowd, I think the tones for just about anything you'd want are there to be had with a little bit of effort and trial and error. Especially, if you enjoy that kind of thing. These days I play mostly with a jazz quintet but I still go out and do country and pop gigs, acoustic duets, even bass gigs now and again. I like the versatility.
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Thanks MK, the last clip did sooth my ears, and I believe my soul to the extent I have one.
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So, just to continue with the Meggy Helix saga - in the end, I've taken a less-costly option, and just ordered an Alto TS210 powered speaker for FRFR purposes. Thanks due to jzucker who gave very helpful feedback regarding his own use and favorable findings using this speaker in a jazz or fusion setting. I'm still interested in having stereo capability, although I suspect at many of my gigs, it won't be practical - but a possible idea I have is to get a second, smaller Alto TS208 monitor, and then I'll have choice of ultra portable/small TS208 on it's own for small gigs or in the home, the TS210 on it's own, or using both for stereo. The TS210 will be better for bass guitar, so that was the way to go initially.
Should arrive tomorrow, and then I can give some decent insight into the jazz clean tone credentials of the Helix.
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Hi Meggy, you have certainly set about to do the Full Monty. I will be very interested in a reflective word on what happens when you put a FRFR cab in the chain with the Helix. I noted that Jack Zucker was helpful with the reasoning on which speaker to chose, I have read in a few previous threads that Jack is a very nice guy and helpful in sharing his experience. It is nice to hear that kind of rumour confirmed!
Look forward to hearing more of your results, as of course you do. 0zoro
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I sent JZ a message after discovering that he might use the Alto TS speakers - turns out he does, and likes them for jazz/fusion and clean tones generally, and his opinion seemed like a better bet to me. Although there are a lot of opinions on the web regarding the merits of various FRFR speakers, I found it hard to know if they were very relevant to me - someone playing djent metal or hard rock, or whatever, will have very different ideas to me about what sounds good. Originally Posted by 0zoro
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Yes, in general it is extremely difficult to find information jazz relevant when it come to gear. One of the values of this forum, that said there are alot of members here who speak out of a non jazz perspective. Looking forward to tomorrow, not that you are not doing the same. It will be interesting to hear what you think of the combination Helix on a FRFR speaker, as opposed to the results you were getting with your cube 80, which has it own colouration spectrum.
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Sorry for the late reply. I’m not very well versed in amp talk. So can you tell me what blackface exactly is? Then I can try to give you a more useful feedback. One thing I notice over and over about modeler reviews is that they all feature heavy driven sound, and almost never clean sounds that jazz folks are interested. But I’m finding that there’s a lot of great clean sounds. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
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