The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    This is not a question about this guitar itself - hence the new thread - but about the blow out with that enormous rebate.

    I mean, Gibson closing a factory and dumping the rest of the inventory - I get it, makes sense from an economic point of view. And there's no secret about Gibson being in trouble, we had that here in the forum.

    But this D'Angelico thing?!?!?

    What is going on behind the scenes? Any real insider with us here?


    PS: Also, in an afterthought... could 600$ be the cost price? Or do they even still make a profit at that price? Questions....

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    I was told by a manager at GC that the blow out was in the works for a long while. GC committed to purchasing inventory from D’Angelico for a couple years with the agreement they would liquidate surplus stock come late 2017 and D’Angelico would contribute to marketing funds for the sale. This accounts for EXL-1’s in the mailer and on TV ads.

    Does this mean the brand is in trouble? Don’t know.

  4. #3

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    Down here, the EX-SS model is also being HEAVILY discounted to $999 at the Sam Ash store. I'm tempted to get one, they are Sweeettt!!!

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by GNAPPI
    Down here, the EX-SS model is also being HEAVILY discounted to $999 at the Sam Ash store. I'm tempted to get one, they are Sweeettt!!!
    Can recommend 100%

  6. #5

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    Why pick EX-SS over the EXL-1 ???

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlumHunter
    Why pick EX-SS over the EXL-1 ???
    Well two different beasts... IMHO

    The EXL 1 is a full featured hollow body with floating p.u., with all the goods and bads that come with it.

    Thee SS is kind of a crossover between a small semi (think ES 339 or Ibanez AM series) and a hollow body.

    You can play pretty loud with it with way less feedback problems but still have a decent jazz tone. It's not a semi tone, it's more jazz box than semi.

    It has a bridge pickup - comes useful sometimes - and it is a very small and convenient to play guitar.

    Acoustically it is loud enough to practice a bit on the sofa without amp but not more, not a really acoustic guitar.

    So it depends on what you want... like always :-)
    Last edited by DonEsteban; 11-10-2017 at 07:31 PM.

  8. #7

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    Thanks for this reply ... I listened to a Youtube of someone playing a jazz standard on an EXL-1 and it sounded great - nice mellow jazz sound, which is what I am interested in.

  9. #8

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    Be careful watching those YouTube videos. LeftoverVISUALS has a series of videos on the EXL-1 and they sound great -- but I'm not sure that it's the same incarnation of EXL-1 that guitar center just blew out.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alder Statesman
    I was told by a manager at GC that the blow out was in the works for a long while. GC committed to purchasing inventory from D’Angelico for a couple years with the agreement they would liquidate surplus stock come late 2017 and D’Angelico would contribute to marketing funds for the sale. This accounts for EXL-1’s in the mailer and on TV ads.

    Does this mean the brand is in trouble? Don’t know.
    I have to wonder about this DA blowout, and whether we're reliving the history of the Epiphone Emperor Regent.

    In the big scheme of things, I don't think there's all that much demand for Korean laminate construction archtops with full-size bodies, long scales, and floating pickups. That's a combination of 3 things that seriously tends to weed out many guitar buyers. Many people aren't comfortable with a 17" x 3" body. It's huge. Many don't like the longer scale. And the vast majority of us can't see the merits of a floating pickup on a laminate construction top. The fact that they use cheap Korean-made Kent Armstrong type pickups doesn't help the situation.

    The most recent attempt (that I can remember) to produce this type of guitar (laminate construction, 17x3-inch body, 25-1/2 scale, floating pickup) was made by Epiphone with their Emperor Regent. It was basically the same guitar as their Broadway model, with the difference being that the Broadway had two body-mounted humbuckers and body-mounted knobs, in sort of a L5-CES type of layout. That in-body humbucking pickup configuration works well with laminate bodies. The floating mini-HB doesn't seem to work all that well in laminate tops. Add to that the fact that Epi used a floating mini-HB that wasn't all that great and it's easy to understand why the Emperor Regent didn't survive in the marketplace. It was popular with the small market demographic that likes that type of guitar, but it wasn't that successful in appealing to the majority of guitar buyers. It got discontinued but Epiphone still makes the Broadway, presumably because the in-body HB design appeals to more people. It certainly sounds different.

    For a time there wasn't a replacement for the ER, so we saw ER prices starting to climb. There wasn't another guitar with these sorts of features available in the marketplace, and once there seemed to be some pent-up demand evidenced by the rising price of ER in the used market, then DA came along with the Korean and Indonesian production EXL-1.

    I think it's interesting that the Korean manufacturers are trying to sell what's basically the same guitar with some dressier appointments. It was rapidly accepted by jazz guys who've always longed for a real DA. With the Korean DA at least we have something that looks the part.

    But how different is it really from the Emperor Regent?

    To my ears they sound pretty much the same. I own both a 2009 ER and a 2016 EXL-1. The bodies look to be identical. Same size, same shape, same f-holes, same binding, same bracing inside. In all likelihood I think these two bodies are built using the same pattern, if they aren't being built by the same people. Both have the volume/tone control mounted in the same locations on the pickguard, and the same mediocre Korean-made Kent Armstrong floating mini-HB pickup. At the body end of the instrument it's hard to tell the guitars apart.

    What's different? Bling. The Epi ER had it's signature "Frequensator" tailpiece and the DA EXL-1 has it's signature "stairstep" tailpiece. The heastocks have the signature appearance that's unique to the brands, but much of the neck construction is the same. The DA neck adds a walnut strip in the middle of a 2-piece neck, where the Epi neck is maple. Both have rosewood fingerboards with inlays. The DA neck is a bit thicker; they call it a C-profile but to me it's more of a D-shape with a shoulder. The Epi neck is a more slender C-shape, which Epi calls a SlipTaper "C" profile. Both guitars have necks that are channeled for a neck-mounted floating pickup, even though the DA doesn't use the channel and mounts the pickup to the pickguard. Both guitars used Grover tuners, the DA using Imperials.

    Looking beyond the external cosmetics, I think it's safe to say that deep down inside these are the same guitar, with only a few changes in the add-ons.

    I know I'm about to step out on a limb in saying this, but I think that the EXL-1 is being blown out just because there's not a very big market appeal for this type of guitar. Outside of the hardcore jazz world, a 17x3 long scale with a floating mini HB is a tough sell.

    If my theory is correct, then the Korean factories have done a great job of re-marketing the old guitar with new branding and a new face. When the DA EXL-1 first came out, it was expensive. The few people who had to have it paid a lot for it. And during the course of the product's lifespan it's features changed along with it's price. It's cheaper now, but the ebony fingerboards are gone and some of the features are gradually changing in step with the price reductions. That's sort of a textbook approach to marketing a product, where it starts off being expensive, and goes through sequential stepped price cuts during it's lifetime, to sell it at the maximum profit to as many people at as many price points as possible.

    All of this makes me wonder if the EXL-1 is going to be continued or if it's going to be discontinued. The $599 blowout was huge. After a huge price drop like that I think it'll be tough to go back to selling the guitars at higher prices. I can't imagine it ever going back to $1399. In all honesty, there's just no way this is a $1400 guitar.

  11. #10

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    ^I just mentioned to the wife a couple nights ago that I suspect my EXL-1 was made in the same factory as my old Broadway. The Broadway’s serial number revealed it was made in Unsung Korean. If the US prefix on the the D’Angelico’s denotes the Unsung plant....

  12. #11

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    Thanks for these answers!

    I was tempted to get one after the price drop, but as BeBop writes, a huge laminated guitar with a floating p.u. just isn't my thing (and I've had that before btw). If I want the acoustic sound I'd rather get me one with a massive top, and for the electric sound I'd always prefer a set in full size humbucker...

    Plus the scale length, while that wouldn't be the main point for me, I got accustomed to the D shape of the EX SS (I'd still prefer a narrower C shape if I could chose).

    So what you write makes absolutely sense to me.

    Will be interesting to see how the story goes on... time will tell.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alder Statesman
    ^I just mentioned to the wife a couple nights ago that I suspect my EXL-1 was made in the same factory as my old Broadway. The Broadway’s serial number revealed it was made in Unsung Korean. If the US prefix on the the D’Angelico’s denotes the Unsung plant....
    My ER is a 2009. That's when Un Sung made them. So it sounds like we both have an Epiphone (Un Sung) ER or a Broadway, and recent-production Korean EXL-1. Mine being a 2016 it has the Incheon label. IIRC yours doesn't say Incheon, right? Incheon label or not, there have been at least 3 of us who have recently commented that our Emperor Regent (or Broadway) and our EXL-1 seem to be the same guitar.

    I don't know where the Un Sung plant is located. It'd be interesting to know if Un Sung is located in Incheon.

    Maybe the reason for the blowout is that the Korean manufacturers are just repeating the same old formula. If that's the case then after the EXL-1 gets discontinued there will be a pause before they introduce a new version of the same guitar with different branding on it. Personally, I'd like to have the EXL-1 configured like a Broadway, but I imagine that if Epiphone is smart then they have a contract that prevents the maker from making that style of guitar for anyone else. Who knows?

  14. #13

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    Some guy in some Youtube video (that I can't remember which one it was) mentioned, that the founders behind the new D'Angelico incarnation seem to be "out of industry" people. I believe to remember some bakery family or something else from the food industry. I really can't recall the exact details.

    Probably - and I'm on thin ice here - could that be the reason they overestimated the market possibilities for such a guitar, plus a clever salesman on Korean side... just speculating.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonEsteban
    Some guy in some Youtube video (that I can't remember which one it was) mentioned, that the founders behind the new D'Angelico incarnation seem to be "out of industry" people. I believe to remember some bakery family or something else from the food industry. I really can't recall the exact details.

    Probably - and I'm on thin ice here - could that be the reason they overestimated the market possibilities for such a guitar, plus a clever salesman on Korean side... just speculating.

    not true!!

    i knew the president steve pisani...old school guitar guy in the sam ash organization...knew his guitars..tho i can't say jazz was his specialty...but definitely long time 48th street manhattan guitar biz guy

    this new d'angelico has released a lot of models in a short time....burn out/over saturation is a possibility

    cheers

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    not true!!

    i knew the president steve pisani...old school guitar guy in the sam ash organization...knew his guitars..tho i can't say jazz was his specialty...but definitely long time 48th street manhattan guitar biz guy

    this new d'angelico has released a lot of models in a short time....burn out/over saturation is a possibility

    cheers
    The money behind the company comes from John Ferrolito (founder of Arizona Iced Tea) and John Ferrolito, Jr. My understanding is that Sr. ran the company for the original run of Korean-made D'As, then passed it on to Jr., who had worked in the music industry. He partnered with Pisani for the incarnations since ca. 2012.

  17. #16

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    Thanks John A. that was the info I couldn't remember anymore... not food, beverage... but yes...


  18. #17

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    Back to the OP's question: I have a theory about why DA did the GC Doorbuster Blowout.

    I started an NGD thread about the tuner alignment problem on my EXL-1. On my guitar the G and A string tuners were seriously askew, and not one single pair of the high and low side tuners were fully aligned. Here's a pic that demonstrates the problem:


    D'Angelico EXL-1 blow out - any insider here for the real reason?-wtf-2-jpg

    What has surprised me about this is that it seems to be a common, if not a universal problem, as other people are reporting that their tuners are also mounted askew. I've asked people to post pictures of their headstocks in that other thread.

    This makes me wonder if the entire supply of GC Doorbuster instruments that were sold at the $599 price point might have been seconds that weren't advertised as seconds. I've seen that trend in the industry where manufacturers prefer not to mark their defective instruments as seconds, they just sell them through a particular retailer who off-loads them at a discount without declaring them as seconds, hoping nobody will notice. Gibson Memphis, for example, is dumping inventory through CME right now, and the consensus appears to be that the Memphis guitars being liquidated all have some sort of minor problem that would probably have red-flagged them if QC were aggressive.

    I've also seen this in other industries. I've seen this in the auto industry where Raybestos received a shipment of brake cylinders from China that failed to meet their advertised spec but were serviceable; they were brake cylinders for classic American cars that were supposed to have SAE-spec fittings on them and were manufactured with metric fittings instead.

    American car collectors balked at the idea of having to have a metric tool in the vicinity of their classic car, and returned them for warranty replacement. Raybestos ended up off-loading all of the not-to-spec parts to Rock Auto, who blew them out at a discount without mentioning the problem. Fitting the vintage American cars' brake components with metric fittings was an obvious manufacturing error/defect that should have been covered by warranty. Instead of rejecting the shipment, replacing the fittings or writing them off as seconds, the company sold them off through a discount retailer hoping that nobody would notice. When I complained, they gave me a proper replacement under warranty that had fittings that matched their spec sheets. It was obvious that they hoped consumers wouldn't notice, and that the squeaking wheels would be greased as-needed with warranty replacements.

    So it seems pretty common that the mode of operation in American industry today is not to admit that items are factory seconds when they are factory seconds. It seems that many companies would prefer to not say anything about a known defect, and sell the product to a customer at a reduced price, hoping that they'll accept the defect and not pursue a warranty claim. Maybe that's the "insider" reason for the GC blowout. Maybe the DA guitars all have these tuner alignment manufacturing problems, which would have made them seconds if QC were aggressive, and that's contributing to the markdown sale.

    None of this sits well with me. It would appear that John Ferrolito, Jr., the business man who owns D'Angelico, is someone who has experience in the music industry and should know better.

    It looks like he's got several problems.

    First, he's getting sloppy product from his Korean supplier and he's not doing anything to fix it. Looking at the tuners it's obvious that they're allowing people on the manufacturing line to perform eyeball alignment of the tuners, and there's a lot of variation in how well the headstocks are being manufactured. There's no consistency. Normal manufacturing methods would involve placing an alignment jig over the headstock when holes are drilled to assure accurate hole placement and uniformity of production. That's not happening here. They're allowing people to make freehand placement on the holes in a D'Angelico headstock. On an instrument such as this one, the fancy ornamental headstock is there as a signature attention getter. Allowing people to make sloppy headstocks just shows that the company is content with sloppy production.

    Second, he's not fixing the problem at the source by correcting the manufacturing problem. Instead he's dealing with the problem by performing a giant liquidation/markdown of the guitars. While making lemons out of lemonade is the most profitable way to deal with the problem from a short-term economic standpoint, allowing problems like this to become persistent has an adverse effect in the long-term on maintaining the quality of the brand name. Someone with experience in the music industry should have known better than to allow such obvious cosmetic defects to dilute the equity in their brand name. This headstock problem is an embarrassment. It's diminished the value of the D'Angelico brand.

    Third, he's allowing the D'Angelico name to become tarnished with a reputation of poor quality control. That's fine if his intent is to make some hit-and-run profits by blowing out a bunch of defective instruments and then discontinuing the brand, but diluting the value of the name is a really dumb idea if his intent is to continue manufacturing the brand as an aspirational purchase item.

    Just because you're good at marketing tea doesn't mean you're good at marketing guitars. A bad batch of tea goes away when you dump it. A bad batch of guitars sticks around for a long time.

  19. #18

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    Don,t hold back Bob,lol.
    You might have hit the nail on the head with this one, but because of the cheap price people are going to buy these and continue to do so, thinking they are getting a bargain, pretty headstock, flamey back etc. I think if these were to be available right into this time next year then they would still fly out the door. You aint happy with yours, for good reason, send it back. There are probably warehouses fill to the brim with them.

  20. #19

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    It's frustrating. I always wanted one of these because I thought they were better than they actually are.

    I can go to GC and look at the cheapest Chinese and Korean guitars hanging on the wall and none of them have problems like this. It doesn't matter if it's a Squier, an Epi, a Mitchell, Dean, whatever ... nobody else makes headstocks with tuners that look this bad. I could understand crappy QC on a budget instrument, but the ornamental headstock on a DA is the trademark feature for these guitars. It's the bling that we're looking for. If they're trying to convince us that we're getting a smoking hot deal on a $1400 guitar it should have better workmanship than the $120 Epi Les Paul Special hanging beside it.

  21. #20

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    For what it's worth I got one in the mail yesterday and can't find any flaws. Tuners are aligned perfectly in a horizontal way - it looks like yours almost tried to follow the contour of the headstock.

  22. #21

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    Really guys, you're talking about a massive markdown on a decent import guitar. If the alignment of one or two tuners really bothers you take the sucker back. Guitar Center is noted for it's very generous almost no questions asked policy.


    Instead of whining: Save your allowance for a bit, take the cheap pickup off that guitar and get a Schatten volume/tone pot set and a Bartolini 5J pickup (that attaches via the neck). Take your guitar and all that stuff to a decent tech, have him install it, really set the guitar up properly and see if he can "fix" your tuner alignment problem. What will you end up with ?? A screaming arch top with a fat tone and I bet you a sauerkraut sandwich nobody looking at you playing it is gonna notice the slightly off kilter alignment of the tuner. Guys saying on this thread and the other EX-1 thread how it's just a laminated guitar with a floater, no hope of decent tone. Youse never heard of a GB10 ???

    You're obsessing about the wrong stuff here boys. Quit seeing the glass as half empty, instead go play the hell out of it and come back telling me how much you like it's tone and easy to play neck. Yeah !! What a concept huh ?? A $600.00 guitar and you guys are dedicating all this whining about the alignment of a tuner. For crying out loud. Remind me never to sell anything to you mugs.

    Big


    And to amplify my point here I share two photos. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury let me present you with two high end replicas of D'Angelico
    guitars, just the back of the headstocks.

    Item A: a $7500.00 Triggs New Yorker, notice how one of the tuners is slightly askew ?? Yeah it's the same position as many of the ones you complain about.

    D'Angelico EXL-1 blow out - any insider here for the real reason?-23435079_10155198502167239_8050939463474228185_n-jpg


    Item B: a 1994 Heritage ghost built D'A Excel, the neck made by a luthier in NY that worked with the D'Angelico family for the first round of replicas before the rights went to GHS Strings and then Arizona Iced Tea... It's almost perfect. Almost. But I never thought twice about either of them being off. Ya know why, because they sound so damn beautiful. AND from the front no one would see it's slightly imperfectly installed.
    Relax boys, enjoy what you have. No one is promised tomorrow, enjoy today to the hilt...

    My Heritage ghost built D'A Excel
    Attached Images Attached Images D'Angelico EXL-1 blow out - any insider here for the real reason?-23379980_10155198509282239_3555897774876692095_n-jpg 
    Last edited by BigMikeinNJ; 11-12-2017 at 08:43 PM.

  23. #22

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    I wouldn't be complaining if my guitar looked that good.

    To be fair, I'm not whining in this thread. This thread is about providing answers to DonEstaban's question about why the blowout is taking place, attempting to identify what's going on behind the scenes. My posts in this thread have been fact-focused on that. I'm really trying to contain my whining in my NGD WTF? thread. Sorry if it's spilled over.

  24. #23

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    Everything you do here in the forum spills over.

  25. #24

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    My guess as to why they are blowing out the D'Angelico EXL-1 for $600 or $700 is that D'Angelico has 3 versions of the EXL-1, not including the MasterBuilt one. There is the Premier EXL-1 for $700 retail, the standard Excel series EXL-1 for $1399 and the Deluxe version EXL-1 for $1550. The Premier series are finished in colors and the Deluxe version is only available in a matte black finish. They should make the Deluxe model available in natural and sunburst and drop the Premier series. As the price difference is just a couple hundred between the Excel standard version and the Deluxe version, maybe they plan to drop the standard version as many people replace the pickups anyway, myself included.

  26. #25

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    The one I saw had that bridge issue (low end screwed all the way down). But, blowing them all out? Doesn't that mean they're selling some firsts for second prices?