Gibson L-4 vs ES-175

[Quent]

There are two differences between the L4 and the 175: The woods (carved vs. laminate) and the placement of the neck PU. On the L4 the neck PU is closer to the neck and to the string node at the imaginary 24th fret. IMHO that brings the tone closer to that of the L5.

Joe Pass' last custom Gibson 175 had the PU placed as it is on the L4 and the sound is fuller and more mellow and spread than on an ordinary 175 - despite it also had a thinner body. I have never understood why it was never put in regular production. Many (well, at least me) would have liked it. To me it sems like the ideal electric jazz guitar: Laminated, comfortable body size and the PU in the right place. And now they were at it, they could also have reintroduced the long scale 350 as well (though, of course, the Tal Farlow is a 350 in disguise but I like the cosmetics of the 350 better).

Why didn't Joe Pass play a L4? Why did he had a special model if it's close to the L4? Maybe because of the solid top?

[lawson-stone]

Joe didn't seem very particular about equipment. He cooperated with brands that wanted an endorsed guitar, but Joe played everything out there and always ended up sounding like Joe Pass. He didn't play an L4 because maybe he just thought the ES175 was fine. Then the Ibanez JP20 was fine. Gibson made him a somewhat customized guitar that he liked. But I imagine if he'd been handed a stock ES175 he'd have been fine. Joe didn't seem to be on this tone-quest journey, but just lived to play.

I wish I was like that!

[Bluedawg]

Why didn't Joe Pass play a L4? Why did he had a special model if it's close to the L4? Maybe because of the solid top?

IIRC the current L4CES model didn't really come in as a definite Gibson model till the mid to late 80s ....

Mine is an '88 model .. possibly even a pressed top, but I haven't confirmed that

There were a few L4CES before over the years, but my understanding of Gibson history is that it was a rare bird and not really marketed until the last 30 years or so

All this makes it a little late or a rather obscure model for JP to try out and use

And I seem to remember him stating in the "An Evening with Joe Pass" video that he preferred the low maintenance and durability of the laminate guitars ... or maybe I'm just imagining that

[oldane]

I just keep wondering how much audible difference it makes, we're only talking about an inch. At this point to me the 175 is like the Tele in that it's perfect, there are other fancier guitars but the Tele and 175 in their simplicity nailed it.

With a Strat the difference in sound between the neck PU and the middle PU is very audible and they are about two inches apart. The difference in sound between a 175 and a L4 is less but IMHO still audible.

[floatingpickup]

About 15 years ago, I played a few duet gigs with a fellow who played an L-4 CES and I was playing a 175. He had feedback issues in rooms where we needed to be loud (I did not). Hi s sound was more "acoustic", my sound was more electric.

All in all, my sound was classic Joe Pass (Think "For Django"). His sound was more Wes Montgomery. I would say that the L-4CES gets you the L-5 CES sound with a 16 inch body (but with a slight loss of bass response). Only a Gibson 175 sounds like a Gibson 175, and even within the Gibson 175 spectrum, the sound varies from year to year (probably instrument to instrument for that matter).

I have owned both. I agree with Stringswinger's comments about 175's having a sound like no other guitar. A good 175 is pretty hard to beat.
Keith

[vinnyv1k]

I have 5 175's and 1 L4CES mahogany. I would rather have the 1 L4 over the 5 175's. The L4 has the best balance out of all my guitars. Every string at every fret has the exact same string volume. The tone is angelic but yes a 175 would be better playing in a band. I never had a feedback issue with my L4. The L4 hog has a tone like no other. Sweeter sounding than a L5 IMO but less bass. Doesn't have the 175 thunk but makes up with far superiority in the other sound spectrums. The tone is way more dimensional than a 175 or at least mine is.

[Max405]

Since I got my HJS18 issues worked out, and based on Vinny's consistent praise of the L4CES, The L4CES is the only guitar that is left in my bucket at this point. Mainly because it does what no other guitar I have can do.. Its a dark, mellow guitar with the magical 175 proportions. Plus, it is a beautiful guitar.
2B.. Still wearing out shoes kicking myself in the ass..
JD

PS. Its funny to me. I grew up on a 175. It is the perfect guitar for me. But in the end, I probably wont own one. My 165 suits me better and the L4CES is what I want more.. Crazy.

[vinnyv1k]

I have never played the L4 maple laminate version but really would like to test drive one. Might be the ultimate hybrid 175. The hog version is much lighter than a modern day 175.

The TF and L4 was Gibson's Best Buy's . Unfortunately the world caught on and Gibson jacked up the prices on both.
A new 2017 L4 is now $7K. My 2014 was $4.5K new. A single pu L4 would be the ultimate IMO. A mini Wesmo.

[2bornot2bop]

I have never played the L4 maple laminate version but really would like to test drive one. Might be the ultimate hybrid 175. The hog version is much lighter than a modern day 175.

The TF and L4 was Gibson's Best Buy's . Unfortunately the world caught on and Gibson jacked up the prices on both.
A new 2017 L4 is now $7K. My 2014 was $4.5K new. A single pu L4 would be the ultimate IMO. A mini Wesmo.

I did play a L4 maple laminate...in red, locally. I'd never experienced a better sounding guitar. I was very impressed, and may likely have purchased that guitar if it weren't for the $4k used price. I preferred the sound of the maple I'm sad to say

[Jabberwocky]

Who else owned and played an L-4CES?

David Bowie'''s Owned and Played 1989 Gibson L4

David Bowie.

[Guitarrista68]

Hi all. I am new to the forum. I wanted to thank ALL who posted here for your very informative posts. This thread helped learn and pull the trigger on a beautiful, very lightly used 1999 L4CES. I love it!!

I've always wanted a Gibson Archtop and have been torn between the ES-175 and the L4 for a long time. I initially got the bug for an archtop years ago when Steve Howe from YES pulled out his 175 and played 'Roundabout' at a concert. Not jazz mind you, but still sounded good! I currently own a blonde ES-347 and an Ibanez Artcore hollowbody as well. I came across this beauty at my local GC. Given the recent quality of some new Gibson models and astronomical price increases, I thought I did pretty well.

Thanks again. I look forward to increasing my jazz knowledge here on this site!

[rio]

Awesome, congrats! If you have a chance, post some photos of your new baby. We love looking at guitars here A good L4 really has a unique sound that isn't a 175 nor an L5 and they are very cool instruments. She'll be with you for a long time I hope and only gets better with age.

[Guitarrista68]

Thanks K, Rio, it is good to be here.

Here she is:


I'll post some additional and detailed pics in a bit.

[rio]

That is a lovely looking guitar. Really gorgeous.

[Stringswinger]

Now that I own a 59 reissue 175 and a new figured 175 (along with a 63 and a Nashville made figured 97), I want to chime in.

The L-4 CES in both variants (maple and Hog) are an in between sound. They are, to my ears more L-5 than ES-175. By the time I played one, I owned both a 175 and an L-5 and saw no reason to acquire an L-4 CES. If I did not have a 175 or an L-5, the L-4 CES would certainly be worthy of consideration, They are the best value. But they are also heavily built like most Gibson archtops made after 1969.

175's come in several variations, but the two big varieties to me are those that are lightly built and have an acoustic nature and those that are heavily built and have a pure electric guitar sound. The more lightly built ones will feed back earlier, as will the L-4 CES.

The 59 reissue captures the acoustic sound of the early 175's. This is the sound that you hear in the 175's of the guitar heroes (Pass, Ellis, Hall and Metheny). The new figured 175 is a heavily built electric guitar. With it's stock, titanium saddle TOM and it's stock Grover tuners, it is a bit brighter than the heavily built 175's that came before and has a bit more sustain.

Reading the earlier back and forth between Vinny and Lawson regarding the 59 reissue, one might wonder what the 59 reissue sounds like. Listen to Keith's real 1959 175 in his video. The reissue captures that sound in spades.

There are a lot of choices in a Gibson 16 inch electric archtop. They are all different, none are "better", they are just different.

[lawson-stone]

With all due respect to Vinny, we weren't hearing differently, we just like different things, plus his run of really bad luck on VOS models would be hard to overcome. But I love my VOS, love its tone, how it feels to play, I even love its skinny frets and of course its light weight. That said, the CME figured "standard" ES175 I recently acquired is wonderful too. Feels like a step toward the L5 in a way, but still rooted in the 175 world.

I love the "idea" of the L4ces, often wish I had one, but I don't know where it would fit in my little guitar world.

[2bornot2bop]

Don't mention an L4CES. JoeD may see the post!

[silverfoxx]

I am a strong advocate of the L4CES , mine
is a 2008 Blonde with nicely mellowed patina .
they bear little comparison to the Es175, and
I am well aware that I’m in the minority with
this opininion. I don’t have the infinite patience
of my friend Vinny, whose Kami Kazi attempts
( 3) to acquire a playable ‘59 RI Es175 failed
at each hurdle. One attempt for me was one
too many.

[vinnyv1k]

Quite frankly I have yet to find a L4CES owner that doesn't love it. They are not a L5 or a 175. They are in there own special class. Like I said if I could only have 2 guitars it would be the Tal Farlow and L4CES.
If you want something fast and nimble and sounds very close to a L5 get a Byrdland.

[omphalopsychos]

Is there any love for the L4C of the 50s? Basically a 175 with a solid spruce top. I've never played one, but the rumor is that the acoustic tone was uninspiring so most users have theirs outfitted with floating pickups.

[silverfoxx]

Thanks K, Rio, it is good to be here.

Here she is:


I'll post some additional and detailed pics in a bit.

Congratulations on your NGD. you will love it . my own is its twin
but more recent (2008) with the addition of an African Blackwood
Bridge assembly. You are quite right it is different to the L5 and 175
in a good way. May I say a belated welcome to this Forum, The font
of all knowledge ,in respect of Jazz Guitar. One can assimilate much
useful information here and ,hear some remarkably good players also

[Guitarrista68]

Hi silverfoxx, thanks. I am already learning a lot on this forum! Your 2008 is all solid construction, correct? If I did my research correctly, all pre ‘99 L4CES models were all solid construction with mahogany b/s. Then around late 98 -99 Gibson did solid tops with laminated maple b/s until 2003 where they reverted back to all solid construction as well as mahogany b/s again. Is that right? Sorry I love history and I love researching this kind of stuff.

BTW - now that the Memphis plant has been closed - where are they making these now?

[silverfoxx]

Hi Guitarrista68
You are absolutely correct on your question
on the build of my L4CES , it is solid top ,and
back ( carved) the the back and sides are mahogany
They are fine guitars , slightly heavy but with a very
impressive tone quality all of its own . It is not as
popular as an Es175, which is a mystery to me.
Another fine Archtop is the Tal Farlow, and in a
similar vein not as popular as it might be.
If you have the opportunity to try one you might
see what I mean.
With regard to Memphis Gibson’s, they are still
being produced , but I’m not sure of the location
one or several of our American friends can answer
that question for you.
I would suggest referring to Jabberwocky here for
any technical details , his knowledge is nothing
short of phenomenal.

[powerwagonjohn]

I think the pre 99 L-4CES guitars had laminated mahogany backs and sides as the ES-175 used. I have played and looked at a few of these and they all looked to be laminated mahogany. There may have been exceptions, like a small run of solid carved, maple back and side customs they supposedly built. Has anyone ever seen or played one of these?
I did see and play one of the Custom L-4 with pearl/metal flake finish and engraved gold parts that was displayed at NAMM. That one was over the top! I enjoy the history and details of guitars too. The L4-CES guitars were all built in Nashville with the other carved top guitars. I read that the L-4 was used to train the employees and get other carved top guitars back into production.
Thanks John

[rhoadsscholar]

Quite an active thread and a new L4 CES aquisition too boot.

All of you convinced (Enabled) me that I really need one of the CME 175's (figured sunburst) So I parted with a guitar and amp to make this happen.

I have found some new tones on my L4_CES thanks to this thread. As some of you have said. ' If you want an ES 175 sound buy an ES 175 sound.

A great jazz one two punch with an L4 and an ES 175 (I am also blessed to own a Heritage Sweet 16 so all I need is one more guitar and I am Set).

THanks for all the great input/recommendations. Here is my L4 waiting for some company from the 175