Emperor Regent - Darn Near As Good As A Gibson ?

[randyc]

Seems like a lot of people think that these Epiphones are great value for the money, including me. I bought an Emp/Reg about five years ago, intending to use it as a "bar guitar". After manipulating it every which way, I sadly hung it on the wall. It's a pretty thing but I couldn't get a decent accoustic sound from it (it IS a plywood guitar) nor could the factory pickup produce a nice tone, IMHO.

No problem, I have lots of guitars and the Epiphone was not terribly expensive. Over the past few years, I've thought about installing a P-90 in the Epi, heck it's GOTTA' be an improvement over that tiny little factory pickup. (As I've mentioned before, I don't think one can get enough turns of 42 gauge wire - or whatever they're using - to get decent voltage output and tone.)

A recent thread, and a spare '64 P-90 pickup, gave me the motivation to start modifying the guitar today. I've not progressed very far but did get the hole cut in the top for the P-90. I'm not enthusiastic about floating pickups, so I wanted mine to be top mounted. However, I found a few surprises waiting for me when I "opened" this guitar.

The whole thing - repeat WHOLE THING - is made of plywood, even the neck ! The internal braces are plywood scraps as well, no attempt was made to shape or form them, as is routinely done on all quality instruments.

No wonder the thing sounds accoustically dead !

I'm going to continue this project and will post a step by step procedure after I'm finished, meanwhile I'm enclosing a couple of photos that I took through the hole in the top. One is the neck, a glued-up assembly of plywood, the other is a plain strip of plywood used as a brace.

My intuition tells me that these things are wildly over-priced. They are many hundreds of $$ more than other guitars in the Epi line and I can't find a single attribute to justify the pricing. I feel like a sucker for paying what I did for the thing five years ago !

cheers,
randyc

[Baltar Hornbeek]

Originally Posted by randyc

I feel like a sucker for paying what I did for the thing five years ago !

cheers,
randyc

Always try and play before you pay. Why'd you put out good money for an "acoustically dead" instrument in the first place....foolish yes, sucker maybe

[randyc]

"Always try and play before you pay"

BH:

The operative word is try". I live in an isolated area of Northern California. This was an internet purchase, as are all of my purchases except for food and fuel.

My L-4CES and L-5CES were also internet purchases and are FABULOUS !

Of my fourteen guitars, the Emp/Reg is the only non-American instrument. Once bitten, always shy

cheers

[RAQ]

Originally Posted by randyc

Seems like a lot of people think that these Epiphones are great value for the money, including me. randyc

First off, this is good work on your part; but that plywood block looks dreadful. I took one look at your photograph thumbnail and went rushing to the Emperor (didn't even read the rest of your post) - still viewed with the aid of a pocket torch through the 'f' holes. The neck block of mine isn't a block at all, it seems (because it's hard to see clearly) that it's made up of three or four smaller blocks glued together. Not a solid block, but not plywood either (if we're counting plywood as strips not blocks).

The rest doesn't look so bad. I'll explore those braces again - a small flat mirror will drop in there and can be moved about to get a better view. I really wanted to put a Gibson 57 in there, but if you reckon there's not room for one I'm going to attempt to measure the braces first. There did appear to be room for a 57 so thanks for posting this info - you've either inspired me to make a good job of the conversion, or leave well alone and use it as a 'round the house' acoustic.

[RAQ]

PS: Further inspection reveals that the braces are what you'd expect (they're what I would expect anyway) shaped, scalloped and, as far as I can tell parallel. I've managed to get a pickup mounting ring, pushed onto a BBQ skewer, working through the 'f' hole, into position between the braces - so, in my case, it seems a Gibson 57 would fit. Maybe this just confirms that although guitars may be called an Epiphone Emperor they can have very different origins and construction. Mine's from the Un Sung factory int Sept 2007. All I have to do now is get that mirror out.

[mangotango]

Originally Posted by RAQ

Mine's from the Un Sung factory in Sept 2007.

Korean Guitar Builders - Un Sung heroes of the Industry?

[RAQ]

Originally Posted by mangotango

Korean Guitar Builders - Un Sung hereos of the Industry?

Good one Mangotango - I began to chuckle so much at that I had to put the drill down.

[fep]

My guitar instructor has the habit of buying real nice old Gibsons. He sometimes sells them when he wants to buy something else. He said he always ends up selling them for more than he bought them for.

I doubt one could say that for most of the China or Korea made guitars.

[derek]

The ER is what it is, an inexpensive 17" plywood archtop with a floating pup. Not too many plywood guitars have a decent acoustic sound, they aren't made for that. However, with a pup upgrade, you can get a good jazz sound out of one.

I have played several, and think they hold a unique place in the market. Not too many guitars with those specs that go for around $500 used.

[mangotango]

Originally Posted by RAQ

Good one Mangotango - I began to chuckle so much at that I had to put the drill down.

Glad to be of service - just wish that I could type the word "heroes".

DOH!!!

[dh82c]

I knew about the plywood block a few weeks ago. My braces seem clean and well done. Mine is a 99 Peerless. I never expected a Gibson when I bought it but for 500$ used shipped with a decent case I am not complaining. It was an internet purchase as well since no one in Montreal sells archtops in the 1K to 2.5K range (I prefere used anyways).
Compared to everything else that I could try I feel I got more than I paid for.

[Little Jay]

I realy have no idea how the heelblock contributes to the sound, but that plywood realy looks awfull..... I have a cheap Japanese archtop (Condor ES175), a cheap Czech archtop (Furch G1) and an Epiphone Sheraton that were all well under $500, but on none of them is such shameless use of plywood... I can relate to your awe when you found that.....

From a construction-wise point of view though, it must be very stable and I cannot imagine it ever to split or break causing the guitar to need a neck-reset! So if the heelblock only marginally contributes to the sound, the use of plywood for that part could even be justified. So if you like the sound of your guitar, try not to think about it ;-)

(but they could have sanded it a little better, it looks so unprofessional)

[randyc]

RAQ:

Don't give up on that PAF, I think that it will fit handily between the braces at the end of the neck. The P-90 is the problem, or more accurately, the mounting tabs on the P-90. I'm going to have to make up a new pickup ring to replace the stamped factory ring (I'm referring to the steel ring that holds everything together, not the plastic ring that is visible from the top of the guitar).

The fact that your ER has scalloped top braces while mine has unformed scraps of plywood speaks to the inconsistency of the materials and the quality of the labor used to assemble these things. Apparently their quality work goes on the outside of the guitar, not on the inside where it really counts. Superficial good looks but low performance, priced well above some of their better instruments in the line.

Unfortunately, the Epi team appears to be driven by marketing types rather than quality assurance types. But then there are a lot of mass-produced guitars that can be similarly described.

I sincerely hope that my ER is the exception rather than the rule. I plan to send Gibson the whole story, pointing out their shoddy materials and workmanship but it won't do any good except to let me vent.

After all, I have already voided the warranty in a rather spectacular way

cheers,
randyc

[ingeneri]

Those are some scary pictures.

I modified my H575 with P-90s and didn't have any trouble with the braces. But that guitar already had humbucker sized holes in it. I'm really curious how your project turns out. Good luck and please keep us posted.

[randyc]

Originally Posted by ingeneri

I modified my H575 with P-90s and didn't have any trouble with the braces. But that guitar already had humbucker sized holes in it. I'm really curious how your project turns out. Good luck and please keep us posted.

Yes, Heritage - with it's years of experience - locates the braces so that they don't interfere with any of any pickup option. Heritage also uses carefully shaped, scalloped hardwood braces, something that seemed to have escaped the Koreans

I did buy this guitar as a beater (I called it a "bar guitar" in the original post. Haven't played the thing since the month I got it, I always meant to take all of the electrics off it and use it as a camping guitar. But then I remembered the old P-90.

Speaking of which, I worked on the project for about ten minutes today and accomplished not too much ... here's the metal mounting ring for the pickup, the mounting tabs are too wide to fit between the ER braces. The next photo shows the mounting ring, as modified. I attempted to save time by bending the mounting tabs in an "L" shape. This was to make the ring fit between the braces and raise the height of the pickup as well. The last photo shows the pickup temporarily placed in the guitar, with temporary screws holding it in place.

After the mounting gets sorted out, I still need to make a bezel to go around the pickup (some call them "tone rings"). The bezel covers the small workmanship flaws and makes the mounted P-90 look more attractive.

As a matter of interest, the two tiny holes drilled just outside the temporary pickup mounting screws, locate the top braces. I intend to use tiny wood screws, threaded about 1/4 inch into the top brace to secure the pickup bezel.

cheers, more later ...

[Bunyip]

This post inspired me to have a look at the neck block in my Agile Cool Cat Prestige, a Korean laminated archtop. It looks like a solid block of wood, possibly maple like the neck. I'm happy now.

[RAQ]

Originally Posted by randyc

Don't give up on that PAF, I think that it will fit handily between the braces at the end of the neck.

OK - thanks for the encouragement and the pioneering research. I've got another project on the bench at the moment, so I should really get that out the way first, but I've been thinking about modifying the ER for some time so I'll at least make a start. I want to install a zig-zag tailpiece too, so I thought I would begin by putting masking tape on the top and projecting the fingerboard on to it by placing a straight-edge along the edges and penciling guide lines in - to make sure everything lines up. I've already cut a template for the PAF, so if I locate that between the lines, and start with a small hole and gradually enlarge it, I should spot trouble before it arrives. I completely agree with Derek that it is what it is (which is why most of us buy one) and although the accoustic tone is OK for playing at home, it begins to struggle in company. I can't see that modifying it can harm the accoustic tone much, but it should benefit from a better pup - and its a good project. Good luck with the P90.

[nado64]

I have an epiphone broadway, emperor with 2 humbuckers, and my "whole thing" is made of one block. It's very strange your plywood...

For information, Grant Green has had got an epiphone emperor, and like you, he had put the p90 of his gibson. You can see it on the famous video with burrell and kessel. And you can listen it on the disc "born to be blue".

[dh82c]

RandyC .. how did you decide the pickup placement?

[RAQ]

Originally Posted by dh82c

RandyC .. how did you decide the pickup placement?

That is a very good question. I've seen references to Gibson (on the 175 for example) siting the neck pup under a node point; and other explanations that simply claim they had to move the P90 back up the body, following the arch, to lift it nearer the strings since the pup itself wasn't adjustable. I haven't cut the hole in mine yet, so I'm open to suggestions, but I will/would have followed the Broadway layout and put the pup at the end of the fingerboard on the assumption that what's OK for the Broadway is OK for a semi-Broadway. I'd forgotten all about that - I'm glad you asked the question.

[randyc]

Originally Posted by dh82c

RandyC .. how did you decide the pickup placement?

Well, the saga is far from complete but I looked at all of my Gibson archtops, including one with P-90s, and decided I couldn't go too far wrong from placing the pickup as Gibson placed them. The mounting ears on the P-90 prohibit the pickup from being mounted inside the body of the emp/reg, unlesss the ears are trimmed shorter or bent in an "L" shape.

First, I bent the ears and temporarily mounted the pickup inside the body, as shown in a previous photo. I had measured the dimensions of the bend but nevertheless, the pickup is situated lower from the strings than I like, so I'm going to try the simplest of all mounting methods, a-la my ES-330 (photo below).

The pickup will be mounted to the top of the guitar, like the ES-330, and covered with a dog-ear pickup cover.

I ordered a dog ear P-90 cover from Stew-Mac last night. They don't give the critical dimensions in their catalog, so I'm guessing that the cover will fit my old P-90. The pickup will be fairly close to the strings, maybe even too close.

If that proves to be the case, I'll replace the steel magnet adjusting screws with brass ones. Had the same problem with the bass strings of an ES-135 and the brass screws fixed the overly-tight magnetic coupling.

The P-90 covers are only available iin black and cream - not chrome like on my ES-330. Given that the rest of the hardware on the emp/reg is gold plated, I decided that the plain black cover would be the least intrusive.

Anyway, that's the plan for the moment, subject to change momentarily of course.

cheers,
randyc

[fauves]

I have had a couple of emp's, (hit or miss sound wise) I did the p-90 mod to the last one. I used a S/D antiquity, I needed to use a short riser to get it close enough to the strings. the tabs fit on top of the riser so I didnt have to bend them.

Sorry but there are some very, very nice ply guitars. es175? and I have a Gretsch Whith falcon thats pretty amazing also.

and some solid tops that are dogs.

[randyc]

Made this pickup ring from a scrap of bubinga (?). If it was rosewood, like the guitar neck, I might make this a permanent change. But I think that the standard dogear P-90 will look better. It won't be here for another couple of weeks, though.

A strip of masking tape holds the parts together temporarily and there is a heavy coat of paste wax on the guitar for protection ... Additional photos show the ring being machined and then lapped on a sheet of sandpaper taped to the guitar.

cheers

[Meggy]

Originally Posted by randyc

Made this pickup ring from a scrap of bubinga (?). If it was rosewood, like the guitar neck, I might make this a permanent change. But I think that the standard dogear P-90 will look better. It won't be here for another couple of weeks, though.

A strip of masking tape holds the parts together temporarily and there is a heavy coat of paste wax on the guitar for protection ... Additional photos show the ring being machined and then lapped on a sheet of sandpaper taped to the guitar.

cheers

I quite like the look of the wood ring personally. Could you stain it darker to match the fingerboard?

[randyc]

Originally Posted by Meggy

I quite like the look of the wood ring personally. Could you stain it darker to match the fingerboard?

Indeed, and may do so if I don't care for the dog ear cover !

cheers,
randyc

[Meggy]

Originally Posted by randyc

Indeed, and may do so if I don't care for the dog ear cover !

cheers,
randyc

Cheers, keep the photos coming of any further developments, for some reason I like this guitar mod stuff.

[randyc]

Getting closer, here's the $2.90 (U.S.) dog ear cover - it arrived in the mail today from StewMac.com. No connection with them except as a satisfied customer !

In my mind, this looks LOTS better than my wooden cover (please ignore the masking tape and paste wax).

cheers

[Little Jay]

I think it looks very good indeed! Classy jazz-box touch!

(but too bad you didn't leave 1 or 2 cms distance from the fretboard, although soundwise it's a non-issue, optically I prefer P90s to be not right against the fretboard... but this comment itself is a non-issue just as well, since you already made your choice and installed it your way )

How does it sound? Soundclip maybe?

[randyc]

Yeah, I hear you and I agonized over that until I looked at the location of the P-90s on my old ES-330. Since that guitar has a wonderful tone, I just copied the location ... right up against the neck with just enough spacing to preclude microphonics,

cheers

[Meggy]

I have to admit it does look a little neater and less bulky than the wooden cover. And not that it will make a whole lot of difference, but right up against the fretboard should make for the warmest possible tone, which would work well combined with the P90 sound.