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I'm in Chicago for the week visiting friends and family (I grew up here). Yesterday, I spent a few hours at Chicago Music Exchange playing small-bodied flat top acoustic guitars. I was able to make some observations, although sometimes it's hard to trust what you hear at a music store with so many others playing at your side.
What are people's favorite flat tops for playing jazz? I'm specifically asking about solo playing, chord melody style, not swing. Let's assume volume is not an issue, because a lot of the guitars I looked at that I thought had a wonderful voice were not very loud.
To me there were a few that stood out. I really, really liked the Collings Waterloo WL S. It's a 12 fret 00 with a non-adjustable carbon fiber truss rod. The thing is unbelievably light and the tone is bright but thick, with a strong midrange presence. Not a lot of bass, however. I played some other Collings and Santa Cruz guitars, including some all mahogany 12-fret 000s. I also really liked the Martin CEO7. It has a very dark and warm voice. One thing I noticed is that larger body guitars (000+) have more bass, but it sounds like they have less midrange and thinner sounding treble. Does anybody know why this is?
I know there's another flat top thread going on right now, but this one is specifically asking for instruments to check out and what makes a flat top sound good for jazz.
Also, what do people mean when they talk about the headroom of an acoustic guitar? I know what it means on an amp, but I've never heard it in this context.
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09-19-2017 11:57 AM
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A good nylon string classical guitar.
IMO most steel string flattops are best played as an accompaniment to vocalists. Boomy bottom, sparkly highs, scooped mids. Of course there are as many exceptions to the rule as there are adherents. Still, good instrumental music to me implies a clear, acoustically loud, and well balanced guitar. For that you can't beat a classical guitar.
Also I believe guitars suffer when they are neither fish nor fowl. If you want that electric jazz guitar sound, it makes little sense to look for it in an acoustic instrument. Celebrate what makes the acoustic instrument different. For that clear, loud, beautiful acoustic tone that is not an electric guitar you are hard pressed to do better than a classical (or crossover if the wide nut and flat fingerboard is an issue). All those Bossa jazzers couldn't be wrong!
DISCLAIMER: I make nylon string acoustic archtop guitars, so I'm obviously bias towards that sound. I know many dislike the timbre of nylon strings. YMMV.
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Maybe an example would help give a better idea of what I'm looking for?
I have the feeling the bass is boosted, or the mic was pointed aggressively to the sound hole because that guitar doesn't sound quite so bassy in real life.
I'm not looking to get an acoustic that sounds like an electric. In fact, I'm not looking for any compromises. A guitar that's ideal for blues and fingerpicking will probably work equally well for what I was describing. I'm just trying to get a sense of what gives the instruments that characteristic.
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I think that you are describing is a typical a rosewood dreadnought ala Nazareth. There are steel string flat tops with balance, fast attack, moderate sustain, strong mids n' trebles and a good ratio of fundamentals and overtones (they're just not dreadnoughts..
Originally Posted by rlrhett
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I really like my shallow bodied Ovation...but probably because it sounds more like an archtop...more midrange, less bass, very little in the way of overtones...it sounds "dry," if you will.
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This is an incredible guitar, a 1999 special edition by Martin, my Martin Concept Gold II:
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I'm another Ovation fan. For me one of the A braced Legend series from some time ago for a steel string. I use a 1117, the electric version is a 1617, guys like DiMeola use the cutaway versions. The balance in tone between, treble, mid and bass is very even and is preserved along with the volume all the way up the neck. This is a deep bowl, there are mid and shallow bowl versions too.
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Yes, of course that is what I'm talking about. The overwhelming majority of steel string flat tops are modeled after a Martin D-28. That doesn't mean that there aren't others out there. My point was that I don't consider a D-28 clone very useful for jazz, and was recommending a nylon string classical. I think they get overlooked a lot when people think of any style other than classical guitar. Lenny Breaux and Joe Pass both played nylon string guitars. I think they have a beautiful sound that works very well for chord melody solo playing. Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
I think that you are describing is a typical a rosewood dreadnought ala Nazareth. There are steel string flat tops with balance, fast attack, moderate sustain, strong mids n' trebles and a good ratio of fundamentals and overtones (they're just not dreadnoughts..).
However, I think the OP has made it clear that he was asking something different than what I was answering. It wasn't a question nearly as broad as I thought. If I understand correctly, he has a particular sound in mind of a small bodied steel string flattop in the style of a Gibson L-0/1/2 or a Martin 00, and is wondering what he should look for within that body style.
One suggestion is to look over at the Acoustic Guitar Forum. There are literally hundreds of thread analyzing the construction and sound of all manner of steel string flat tops. I hear good things about those Collings "Waterloo" guitars you referenced. Made in China, but with really close attention to construction and quality, or so I've heard. I once played a Collings small bodied guitar in the 00 size. It was "the one that got away". I couldn't afford the near $5K price, but I've never played a guitar that enchanted me more. I built nearly a half dozen small bodied guitars trying to recreate that magic. Never came close.
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listening to the video on headphones, I would personally prefer more low end body to the tone (coming from the guitar not the mic). I do like the mid character but without the low end I loose that...warm blanket feeling (I've given up on describing tone). I find mahogany to accent more the fundamentals where rosewood tends to bring out more the harmonic content (as well as more sustain). My preference would be a mid size (OM or concert body), mahogany, 12 fret to the body. And I'd also look seriously at the strings. A huge range of tonal possibilities there. Perhaps silk and steel.
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Maybe a 000 12 fret? Seems like that construction would be most similar to a classical.
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That's a good point about the strings, also. What can you recommend? I've found that phosphor bronze gets to a really good dry tone after a break in period, at least on flat tops. I've only ever used 80/20 on archtops.
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I'm super hooked on John Pearse Silk and Bronze. It's not like a Silk and Steel set, which sound tinny for an hour, then great for 15 minutes, then die...they last, and just feel like a well played in set of bronze strings with a little lower tension. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
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I use a Gibson Blue Ridge (square shoulder dreadnought with laminated back and sides). To my ears, it shades a bit more toward a mid-rangey archtop-ish sound than a typical D-style acoustic. Here's a quick sample: Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
I've been looking to replace this because I'm finding the body shape increasingly uncomfortable due to chronic shoulder problems. I bought this 35 years ago. it had aged better than I have...
Anyway, I've tried a lot of acoustics, both flat and archtop. So far I've liked the Taylor 214 best. Admittedly, these really don't sound much like archtops, but they're really good, and I've enjoyed the ones I've tried for chord-melody stuff.
John
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Depends a bit on your body size. For jazz, the ability to get around the full length of the neck and move positions quickly might point to a smaller, not so deep as a dreadnought, OOO or OM sized guitar with a waist and additionally a cutaway if you're so inclined.
I've found the deep bass emphasis of the D sized guitars are well suited for chordal strumming work (they were, in fact, designed to fill in for bands where a bass wasn't always available and acoustically suited for deep chordal work of bluegrass or folk genres).
The smaller (not as deep) OOO or OM size, Taylor has different names, Concert and Auditorium are names that go with OOO or Jumbo as the big Gibson waisted guitars.
I've found there's a good bass in those smaller guitars when they're build well but what they do give you is comfort and acoustic balance, two things that are high on requirements when playing jazz.
Of course if you're a big person, long arms and like the big boomy, then D style guitars are great. In jazz, it's the music and not the instrument that makes it jazz. Find the one that doesn't get in the way of that task.
I love the size of the ovation but it's a slippery squirming turtle in my hands. I can't deal with that. I got a little Dean a long time ago and it's been passed all over among loved ones. It still holds up and has the jazz chops in there waiting to be released, and it's real comfy.
David
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+1 for mahogany to bring out the bass and mids Originally Posted by BigToe
I have a Martin JM (jumbo) with spruce top and laminated mahogany back and sides, by playing close to the neck with a thick pick and a soft touch, I like the sound. I can imagine the D18 could be a good contender with flatwounds and a soft touch
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Not sure what acoustic he was using but probably something inexpensive. He's not a gearhead.
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The Emerald X7 is similar in size to the Collings Waterloo WL S and for a small flattop guitar it sounds amazingly clear and well balanced.
Here is a youtube video of a gentleman playing "Summertime" on an Emerald X7.
You're hearing it's plugged in sound.
Last edited by dhd; 09-20-2017 at 01:54 PM.
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Like everything else, personal taste. Were I to try jazz on an acoustic, it would be a smaller (O to OM sized) body, mahogany back and sides. I owned a couple rosewood D style Martins before realizing that wasn't really for me. The clarity of mahogany and the smaller has great appeal. Also the string to string balance.
MD
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Anyone use a j200 size acoustic for solo playing ?
Might try one ....
Epi or something cheapish
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There is an incredible variety of flattops available today. In the past I used jumbos--never did like dreadnaughts--but these days I like smaller guitars. I currently use a Martin 00-15M and a Seagull Coastline Grand when I reach for a flattop. The smaller guitars are a little more balanced in sound, more comfortable to play, and they can give me a bit more "edge" if I want the European sound (i.e.: a Gypsy kind of twang).
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I do the flat-top jazz thing a lot of the time, mostly fingerstyle. I like both dreadnoughts and small body guitars. I think most any flat-top will be OK for jazz, but like archtops or electrics, some guitars are going to appeal more than others to a particular player.
My dreadnoughts are a Gibson J-45 custom and a Martin D-28. I love them both. The top end of the D-28 in particular is very thick and sweet and makes a nice jazz noise IMO. Playing fingerstyle, it is quite easy to back off the low end using a lighter thumb technique. The volume of the dreadnought can be useful in a purely acoustic setting.
My small body guitars are a Gibson LG-2 American Eagle and a Fender Paramount PM-2 12 fret parlor guitar. I use the Gibson often for small gigs, and the Fender is my front porch guitar. Both guitars sound great for jazz, but the Gibson sounds much better plugged in than the Fender. I think mostly it is the difference between the L.R. Baggs vs Fishman electronics. The L.R. Baggs in the Gibson is thick and rich, whereas the Fishman in the Fender is thinner -- more scooped -- even using the EQ to compensate. The Fishman unit does have a very cool and handy tuner built in that I like a lot.
Those Collings Waterloo guitars have caught my eye too! Did I see earlier in this thread that they are made in China? I didn't know that -- assumed they were USA made guitars . . .
If you are interested in the 12 fret guitar thing, you should try out a Fender Paramount. They are relatively cheap (under $1K) made in china, but nice sounding, nice playing guitars with lots of quality details like good openback tuners, bone nut, and ebony bridge pins. I like the 12 fret sound, but I do find the fretboard to be a bit limiting. The 14 fret Gibson is more versatile.
Another issue for playing jazz on a flat-top is what you are plugging into (assuming you are plugging in!) I like the sound of a flat-top through a regular amp I would use with an electric better than an acoustic oriented amp. For example, I will play the Gibson LG-2 through my DV Mark Little Jazz, or a tube amp instead of a Fishman Loudbox. That's what works for me.
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I don't know where the rumor that Waterloos are built in China originated but it's not true. They're made in Austin TX. They use more cost effective methods and spend less time worrying about cosmetics.
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That's what I thought too Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
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I don't know if this is any help, omphalo, but I'll share my thoughts. I'm lucky to own three pretty nice flattops: a 1974 Martin D-28, 1996 Martin 00-21GE, and a ~2006 Gibson Roy Smeck Stage Deluxe Reissue.
I love them all, but for jazz I would pick in this order: Smeck, 00, then D-28. I'm not even sure why. Only the Smeck is mahogany. And it has an extra deep body so the tone is deep or rich or something that sounds right for jazz. Rounder than my Indian rosewood Martins? And the 00 is a great fingerstyle guitar in general.
I think this speaks to your question about the emphasized bass frequencies in a 000 or dread--a larger guitar. I can't explain the physics, but it seems clearly a function of the body size--length, depth, bout shape. My D-28 has a great low end, but it can be too "boomy" in some contexts. The Martin 00-21 is much better balanced across the strings. I think this helps me hear the notes in a complex chord.
And to your question about "headroom" in the context of an acoustic, I think it refers to the idea that sometimes some very loud playing--loud strumming or really digging in on certain notes in a single note run--for me, the sound almost seems to 'break up" a little bit, like a nice tube amp. But it's not such a musical distortion. It just farts and wonks a bit and makes a less-than-clear-sounding note. Too much input for the box, I figure.
You've probably heard Eric Skye burning up his Santa Cruz 00. If not, for your consideration and entertainment. Good luck in your quest. I'd be curious to hear about what you decided someday down the road.
Last edited by Flat; 09-20-2017 at 06:24 PM.
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I'm a huge fan of Eric's. I would really like to own the SCGC 'Skye' model but it's way beyond my budget. My 2014 Martin 000-18, however does a commendable job on just about any style I choose to play - not overly 'bass-ey' and very balanced. Originally Posted by Flat
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