Which Flattops for Jazz?

**Flat** · 09-21-2017, 05:37 AM

I'm a huge fan of rosewood overtones and shimmer, but I really think a mahogany box--like the 000-18--lets me hear the note's fundamental better.

(This is just subjective opinion from a guy who doesn't really know better and can't play all that well anyways. On the other hand, Eric's 00 is rosewood, and the dude lives a hundred floors above me in the tower of song. So go figure. ;-)

**docsteve** · 09-21-2017, 11:52 AM

This is me at my most Frisellesque, improvising over a German hymn on a Martin Auditorium:

This was their entry level guitar some 18 years ago.

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**Wes Green** · 09-21-2017, 09:11 PM

For a value and a very nice small body, take a look at the Recording King 00 RPC-26 Schoenberg model. I love mine. A Martin clone at a fraction of the cost. Nitro finish, solid Mahogany, Engleman Spruce, Ebony, long scale 12-fret w/ cutaway and Fishman options. Great finger style jazz.

I agree w/ the comment on headroom. Some acoustics just distort. Whether a construction or material issue, I don't know, but it does not sound nice.

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**wengr** · 09-22-2017, 09:25 AM

The top only has so much ability to vibrate in response to the string vibration. As it approaches it's limit, the sound can change, often in an unpleasant way. Much like a speaker cone there is only so much travel. This is referred to as headroom. Usually encountered while strumming hard with a flat pick. I would not think it would be an issue for the type of playing you describe. If it were me I would consider the following questions:
Do I want,
American sound, or European/Irish sound? American typically with more pronounced fundamentals, and Euro/Irish typically more pronounced overtones. For me it would depend on the level of density and harmonic complexity of the intended playing. As it goes up, I would lean toward less overtones.

Body Style. I would not consider a dread for myriad reasons. I would start with om. If you prefer the shorter scale then ooo. Need less bass try oo. Need more bass and volume try oooo. I personally like oooo with cutaway and long scale.

When that's all decided, then rosewood family or mahogany family woods? Both have great and less than great aspects. Imo, if you can spring for Braz, it is often the best of both worlds.

And finally, when all that has been decided, look for your preferred neck specs, asthetics, and price point.

**BigToe** · 09-22-2017, 11:47 AM

I think Lage has been great for using the flat top more broadly and you can tell he's really pays attention to his attack and plays dynamically. It looks like here he's playing a D18

Here's he's playing an OM. Hard to compare the two videos but I sense the OM has more 'sweetness' to it.

**Guitarbean25** · 09-22-2017, 01:38 PM

No one us mentioned the Collings SJ. No, it's not small, but with spruce over maple, it seems "drier" than other wood combos. And it can be loud if you want it to be.

**feet** · 09-23-2017, 09:50 PM

small, dark and dry? oh, hello there, guild m20!

picked one of these up over the summer. i'm generally and ultimately quite pleased with it, but some of the fit/finish and dealings with guild left more than a little to be desired. but the thing just sounds and feels amazing in your hands.

one thing i should note, especially for you giant archtop players is that playing a tiny guitar is weird. it sits a little funny in your hands/lap/shoulder or whatever. takes some getting used to. i play with the guitar on my left leg, and i don't know if that makes things better or worse.

one other thing to note- he probably never used on (in the studio, anyway) but it absolutely nails the nick drake sound, especially the pink moon era, for what that is worth. strings play a role, but it's uncanny. and a lot of fun. that's not all it does, but once you fall into some weird tuning rabbit hole, it's hard to find your way back out. it's just so satisfying.

**vsaumarez** · 09-23-2017, 11:59 PM

Best guitar I ever owned was a flat top and it was ideal for jazz. It was a Manson Bluebird. It played like an electric and was much warmer than most flat tops. Never found anything close since and believe me I've searched. String choice, action and style play a big part. For warmth, you can't really beat a nylon but you lose dynamic range. A lot of players seem to experiment but most seem to revert back to archtop. I recently posted about the D'Angelico EXL1, which some reviews suggest is essentially an acoustic. There are luthiers who seem to be on a quest to make the ultimate jazz flat top, but maybe starting with an archtop as the basis might be useful.

**mr. beaumont** · 09-24-2017, 04:15 PM

I brought my old Seagull s6+spruce out of hibernation this morning as I decided I wanted a steel string in my office where I teach. My intent was to restring it, but I paused once I heard these old, dead strings...honestly, sounds way better than my Taylor for jazz...well sonofabitch.

**sparkhall** · 09-25-2017, 03:41 AM

This is an interesting and useful thread. For a while now I have really wanted to get a steel string flattop for playing on the couch or outside on the stoep. It would be great to find something I can really bond with that doesn't need to be plugged in. Problem is having played a gazillion flattops in wide range of shapes and prices nothing really nails it for me.

Someone earlier pointed out that you shouldn't expect a steel string flat top to sound like an electric jazz box and I think this finally hit the nail on the head for me. I am trying to find a flattop that sounds like an electric (or like a nylon classical which I also like but find the neck/body not the best for sofa jazz).

So I think I have my answer, which is that I really don't enjoy the tone of acoustic steel string (at least not when it's me rather than Mr Beaumont playing) so I should stick with what I like and look for a crossover nylon which lends itself to more informal playing contexts - perhaps one of the Cordoba Fusions. Rather a flash of the blindingly obvious I know, but it is amazing how much time you can waste looking for something that doesn't exist

**John A.** · 09-25-2017, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I brought my old Seagull s6+spruce out of hibernation this morning as I decided I wanted a steel string in my office where I teach. My intent was to restring it, but I paused once I heard these old, dead strings...honestly, sounds way better than my Taylor for jazz...well sonofabitch.

Seagulls are very nice guitars. Same company as Godin, which (as you well know) punches way above its price-class.

John

**mr. beaumont** · 09-25-2017, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by John A.

Seagulls are very nice guitars. Same company as Godin, which (as you well know) punches way above its price-class.

John

Yeah, they're cool...They do a good job over there in Canada.

I bought this guitar when I was still in high school. It was my only flat top for years, until I craved a cutaway and bought a Taylor...and now I'm listening to them back to back...lol. Gonna put the Taylor in it's case for a bit.

**omphalopsychos** · 09-26-2017, 08:49 PM

I ended up going with a Martin 000 17 SM. I don't know what it is about this guitar, but it has the sound I wanted. Very responsive, loads of sustain. The waterloo guitars were close seconds. The only issue with those was that they didn't quite have enough bass. This one has loads of bass and a dark voice overall. It would get lost in a band or in a mix, for sure, but I got this so that I could have a flattop hanging around the house so that I could play softly on something with a little more sensitivity than my archtops. I threw on some already-worn-in Thomastik Plectrum strings (13 - 61) and swapped the 13 and 17 out for 14 and 18. I'll share a recording one of these days.

Another amazing guitar I played was the CEO7, but it was outside of the budget. What's interesting is that I thought I'd love the Collings and Santa Cruz guitars there, but I found them to be a bit too shimmery and scooped (with the exception of the waterloos). Eric Skye is a great player, but his sound has much more sparkle than what I was really looking for.