New Korean Guitars which over-perform for $

[TOMMO]

My MIC Ibanez AFJ95 leaves nothing to be desired in terms of workmanship and playability and the sound is at least pretty good (as much as I can tell without much experience with archtops) so I'd say it "overperforms".

I have another MIC (I think) solidbody PRS style guitar that we purchased for our daughter and that I inherited when she finally lost interest that is one mighty fine guitar - sounds great, too - and in the case of a solidbody I can tell. Cost just a little over € 200,00. It's just an in-house brand name guitar of a german music store.

[Thumpalumpacus]

IME, Epiphone Sheratons are the ones with the best-sounding tone-footprint.

Investing on them putting in good pickups, harness and other hardware is well worth the tonal outcome, so I'm always looking for second-hand ones. In my case, they're not even need to be in fantastic shape, as I do all the work, from selecting, building and installing the hardware to the necessary fretwork and nut-making and setting.

Once finished, they sound just as good with either 11-52 roundwound or 12-52 flatwound strings.

HTH,

Oh yeah -- a well-set-up Sherrie is a fine guitar.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'd say that every Epiphone guitar I ever owned, and that's maybe 5 or 6, has totally punched way above its class. All were solid, good playing instruments. The Elitist Broadway is the equal of any L5ces type of guitar.

I've played Epis that didn't pull my trigger, but all-in-all, they might be my favorite mid-price maker. My #1 electric for a few years was an old Epi MiK SG -- preferred over my Gibby Faded SG for rock playing -- that was very versatile (think almost-Tele to almost-Les Paul, and a decent fake-semi-hollow with some amp tweaking). It played, set up, and intonated much better and more stably than did my 73 Les Paul. Get the right one, you'll get a giant-killer.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Pedals (particularly over use of pedals) can promote sloppy playing in my experience. I have nothing against shredding, but I would venture a guess that a lot of shredders would sound terrible direct to an amp.

When I got back into playing electric, I foreswore pedals, and that was a direct result of seven years of playing flattop-only. Once I learnt how to control response with touch, I didn't want anything hindering that connection to my instrument.

There's a place for effects, and I'll even use a little delay or chorus from time-to-time (mainly when doing covers where I'm trying to reproduce tones on the original). But if I'm practicing, or playing originals, I want the route between fingers and speakers to be as uncluttered as possible. I feel it helps my playing breathe more.

[Robertkoa]

I'm quite happy with my Ibanez AS153 after having owned three very nice 335s in the past. Swapped the pups out for Seth Lovers and this thing kills!

Also have a D'Angelico EX-SS with Lollar Imperials that is very sweet.

Both guitars are are extremely versatile, able to handle almost any style I subject them to. And of course they both are excellent when it comes to JAZZ!

Now you've got me curious about the Prestige brand! :^\

Is the AS 153 the one I see Ben Monder Playing on the Youtube Video ?

I noticed on the more expensive Ibanez ( still reasonable at $800 to $1100 ) like the JM 10 they sound a hair bright or a tiny bit of harshness possibly...

Does switching to the Seth Lovers round that edge off just a bit and deepen low mids AND did you still use the Trisound Switch ( series / single / parallel )
with the Seth Lovers ?

..
Yes - I KNOW it is a complicated 4 Part Question-
BUT - you get 15 Points for each part !

[DonEsteban]

Is the AS 153 the one I see Ben Monder Playing on the Youtube Video ?

Take note that Monder is never ever seen "in the wild" with that kind of guitar*. He plays his old AS50 (or 80?)
For me this video is a deception.

I noticed on the more expensive Ibanez ( still reasonable at $800 to $1100 ) like the JM 10 they sound a hair bright or a tiny bit of harshness possibly...

Does switching to the Seth Lovers round that edge off just a bit and deepen low mids AND did you still use the Trisound Switch ( series / single / parallel ) with the Seth Lovers ?

The harsh, bright - or whatever you might call it - sound of most of the newer Ibanez guitars is caused by the construction. I think the neck in particular, but that could be wrong. Anyway I'm pretty sure you can't correct the fundamental characteristic of a guitar by changing pickups. They only pick up what's there....

* As are other endorsers, or have you ever seen Sco playing an JSM guitar outside a promo video? And Pat plays a prototype. Maybe G.B. is the only one, but who knows what his guitars REALLY are????

[Robertkoa]

The PM35 wasn't made in Korea but in China, BTW.

Just peeped through the f-hole of mine to make sure.

I guess the PM35 and the PM2 have been the only two Metheny models made in China thus far.

Is your PM 35 a bright Guitar unplugged?
Meaning you must roll off a lot of hi end for a usable Jazz Tone or is it kind of Benson-ish in it's actual Tone unplugged ?

I am not a big Fan of taking a really bright Guitar like a Tele and needing to turn the Tone knob really low to use the darn thing..

Although IF it has some bottom end ..that's different.

Think of it this way ..can you turn the treble wayyyyyy down on a Violin Recording and make it sound like a Viola or Cello ?

Anyway I do like the Tones on the PM 35 that I have heard on Youtube and all those Metheny Models seem to have a lot of Sustain .

I was ready to offer $ 600 on a used one - but it was Gone quickly...but that was before I heard of Prestige Semi 25.5 and the Specs are pretty close to what I hoped Kiesel would make or the Holdsworth HF2 I asked for Joined at 21st fret I really thought they would upcharge me and do that - I got a no.



Although I am more interested in 25.5" Scale.

The PM 35 and PM 2 must be among the best sounding ever Chinese Guitars.

If these Prestige or DAngelicos were around -DAngelicos are but not the* EX- DH..
I would not need to speculate and research so much it's interesting though..

*Which is a 3" Deep, 16 inch wide Archtop D'Angelico....new at $1899 or $1999.
And at these prices it BETTER be great because NOS ES 137's are this price ( I have played a Gibson ES 137 recently and definitely a fat beefy versatile Guitar ( and I would have tech install Coil Cuts ) - but prefer 25.5" Scale.

These Korean Guitars will drop in Value like a rock - so for $2000. or ridiculously $2800. for the Deluxe Rosenwinkel Signature..as they pointed out on
Another Thread - $ 2800 for Korean is too high ...
They may only sell 6 of these in two years.


If I get my hands on them in a quiet room - I can assess the bottom end (usually unplugged ) and sustain and general Tonality.

Prestige will be hard to find..but D'Angelico EX- DH should be in a few Stores..

Edit- I have been told on another Thread that the DAngelico EX-DH Deluxe despite the Archtop 16" 3+ Inches deep Appearance and specs.- does NOT have
the full Sound/ Tones we might expect from this Body Style.

I like the idea of nearly full Archtop Tones ( with long Sustain- which is not always desired but I do ) and being able to use Single Coil Switches for certain things..but EX-DH isn't the one..

[Robertkoa]

Take note that Monder is never ever seen "in the wild" with that kind of guitar*. He plays his old AS50 (or 80?)
For me this video is a deception.



The harsh, bright - or whatever you might call it - sound of most of the newer Ibanez guitars is caused by the construction. I think the neck in particular, but that could be wrong. Anyway I'm pretty sure you can't correct the fundamental characteristic of a guitar by changing pickups. They only pick up what's there....

* As are other endorsers, or have you ever seen Sco playing an JSM guitar outside a promo video? And Pat plays a prototype. Maybe G.B. is the only one, but who knows what his guitars REALLY are????

Well I don't care about those Players - or what Instrument they actually Play- just the Guitar itself.

And actually my heavier- than- a - Les Paul- Superstrat is very phatt and loud unplugged and not coincidentally- Plugged In.. so it would be silly to get a Semi Hollow or Hollow that is only similar and does not exceed..and in a Recording Context - it will show.

'You mean a Phone Video on Youtube Robert ? '
No ...lol.
Any of you who have sold Music..say to an Ad Agency .. or Corporation..or whatever..
The Demos are Broadcast Quality with at least 50% to 90% of the Production Slick and done and of course no one accepts nor wants Unsolicited Material.
So I will probably put together a Production Rig and program beats and tracks and Rhythm Guitar then Heads Solos actual Production ..not phone demos etc.

[LeGrand]

Totally agree on Epiphones as a superb value.

I host an OM every Saturday (over 3 years now) and run sound. I have mixed a LOT of guitars. Martins, Gibsons, Taylors and Yahama's are the easiest to mix well. Of course strings impact it a great deal as does the players style. Epiphones sound wonderful through my Allen & Heath board fed into my Bose PA.

A personal favorite is Guild. A true value in laminated archtops. My X175-B came with D'Addario rounds and a set of flats warms it nicely. From "Ain't no sinshine" to "Rock this Town" to "Don't Rock the Jukebox" to "Sleepwalk", it is a special guitar to play. And at a grand, has beautiful binding, straight neck, remarkable P90's, and a 9.5 radius. Easy to play for hours.

[Robertkoa]

Probably the best Guitar Tones I have ever gotten was a Custom 3 PU BC Rich Koa Mockingbird ( warmer, fatter than an SG but had dozens of sounds due to Switches ( series single , parallel etc)..and a little Tube Amp into a Harry Kohlbe Silent Speaker ( output padded to line level ) into a TAC Scorpion Board and using a Lexicon LARC EFX Unit with the wired remote and monitored thru Tannoy PBM 8s- a very ' flattering' Monitor...lol.I couldn't make it sound bad- this was back in late 80s...gorgeous Cleans on chords..and some light crystal clear OD ..a big Miami Studio ...I don't hear the 'Plug Ins' nowadays as equal the Old Lexicons..though I don't play around with Plug Ins..There were Resonance and Diffusion Controls that did some amazing ambiences..I would like to have one now..the Yamahas REV 7 s etc were cool also but not amazing like the big Lexicons..I haven't used a Pedal since I was 13...104 years ago...lol.I know the Pedals have improved a lot but rather use Rackmount stuff for Recording...The Convolution Verbs impressed me a few years back but not like the Lex stuff.. I was probably using/abusing the Resonance and Diffusion and other parameters to achieve pure sounding almost Guitar Synth Legato type tones etc.

[Robertkoa]

Back to the Thread..I am leaning toward the Prestige.. talked to a few people who have had or heard one but nothing too definitive...

I want to get some opinions here on what you Guys think - most of you are very advanced on having ' big ears' etc.

At one point on this Video he plays a Maj 7th Chord
Rhythm which seems nice and deep AND from the
Pickup Selector he MAY have both Pickups on- meaning the Neck alone will even be deeper .

I would rather have a deep fat sounding Guitar because it is easier to ' thin out' a very deep Guitar with ( single coil , parallel etc.) switches than add beef or overtones to a very thin Guitar..

Thinking IF this IS on the Both Pickups setting..
This Axe is probably deeper/ thicker sounding than most 335s..
by quite a bit ...

Any thoughts ? Besides me being really OCD about this ...lol.

[Thumpalumpacus]

It's hard to tell. Even when "clean" he's got a little hair on his tone, and to be honest, it sounds like he should have dialed his amp in better.

I know that my Ibby though my little 5w tube amp has more beef even in the middle position (if I dial it in that way). But that doesn't mean squat ... go out and play one and let it talk to you.

[Robertkoa]

Yeah ...I'd like to try a Prestige ..
5 minutes unplugged and I will know the general characteristics it has to offer.

None around so far to check out..hence the speculation..

Good point about the way the Amp was dialed in...
He dialed in the Crunch Tone first and merely rolled back the Volume knob(s) for the ' not quite cleans' as you mentioned Thumpalumpcus.

We can probably add some of the Hagstrom Super Swede and Super Viking ( for 25.5" scale ) and the Swede and Viking ( 24.75" scale ) as overperformers.. just based on a few Demos...they sound very good.

I wonder about that' resonator' synthetic Fretboard and refrets though.

The wood called Granadillo makes a great Fretboard and we don't have to worry if it can be refretted...
'Resinator' how to refret plastic ?

[brad4d8]

I've been very satisfied with my Korean Epi Howard Roberts Custom (made by Samick), well worth the $500 I paid. I know they are not in current production, but still show up regularly in online auctions. I know some people have upgraded the pickup, but I use mine mostly as a practice guitar without amplification, but when I do amp it, seems okay.
Brad

[Robertkoa]

Recent threads on the Seventy Seven Guitars Jazz
Hawk and the Seventy Seven Albatross Jazz..suggest that they overperform also.

Most say Fat Hawk is very close to ES 175 in Tones and Quality at $2100. to $2200. for the 2 pickup Model.

Sounds great in clips - I appreciate 175 Tones a lot but not enough Experience with them( owned a Harmony Archtop as a kid lol but ..no experience with Archtops ) to be qualified to comment other than - great sustain and nice fat warm Tones.

Albatross is $1650. so perhaps not a great bargain- but again I am looking for new Tonal Ground more than Bargains...
These are Japanese Guitars so don't exactly fit my Title but are greatly crafted and Jack Zucker's excellent Demos show off the beautiful ES 175 Tones of the Seventy Seven Jazz Hawk and the warm tones of the Seventy Seven Albatross Jazz.

[rio]

Recent threads on the Seventy Seven Guitars Jazz
Hawk and the Seventy Seven Albatross Jazz..suggest that they overperform also.

Most say Fat Hawk is very close to ES 175 in Tones and Quality at $2100. to $2200. for the 2 pickup Model.

Sounds great in clips - I appreciate 175 Tones a lot but not enough Experience with them( owned a Harmony Archtop as a kid lol but ..no experience with Archtops ) to be qualified to comment other than - great sustain and nice fat warm Tones.

Albatross is $1650. so perhaps not a great bargain- but again I am looking for new Tonal Ground more than Bargains...

I don't know if I would call that over performing - they are made in Japan and I think the price is pretty fair for what they are and what they sound like (as opposed to Gibson where a new 175 is, in my opinion, overpriced). Same thing with the higher end Japanese Ibanez arch tops which is a fair price for what you are getting. I think a pretty good bang of the buck in terms of over performing for the price are the new Ibanez Contemporary Archtops which are under a grand and made in China. This is some playing and a review I did of mine. I think that the pickup could be a little better (main gripe is the lack of pole pieces) but the materials, fit and finish are all really good for the price.

I like to think back to high school in the 90's and think about how fortunate we are nowadays to be able to choose from so many great guitars!


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[Robertkoa]

I don't know if I would call that over performing - they are made in Japan and I think the price is pretty fair for what they are and what they sound like (as opposed to Gibson where a new 175 is, in my opinion, overpriced). Same thing with the higher end Japanese Ibanez arch tops which is a fair price for what you are getting. I think a pretty good bang of the buck in terms of over performing for the price are the new Ibanez Contemporary Archtops which are under a grand and made in China. This is some playing and a review I did of mine. I think that the pickup could be a little better (main gripe is the lack of pole pieces) but the materials, fit and finish are all really good for the price.

I like to think back to high school in the 90's and think about how fortunate we are nowadays to be able to choose from so many great guitars!


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Nice Review and nice voicings and touch on the single lines where we can really hear the Guitar.

Also really appreciate getting to hear it with Tone Controls wide open- still sounds good IMO.

Meaning not thin by any means or obnoxiously bright
and I am in your Demographic there of not having played an Archtop since I was a little kid..

Very interesting comments on Fretwork..I am used to
Carvin and BC Rich and Gibson so I wonder if the Frets on these Koreans are going to make it for me..even some of the Gibsons like LPs have oddly planed ( Plek Abuse - haha) down frets...

The D'Angelicos and Eastmans use the high endvJescar wire which I am used to...
And of course you are talking about fret precision and fingerboard precision etc.
Excellent Review.

[ruger9]

I had an Artcore way back, it was good. Not up to the level of my Gretsch, but good. Since then I have/do own: PRS SE (very good), Fender Squire Thinline (very good), Epi Les Paul (very good), Epi Broadway- Peerless (great). My #1 acoustic is a Walden MIC (excellent).

We are living in a golden age of guitars. You can still get amazing high-priced works of art, OR extremely nice affordable versions for a fraction of the cost. Amps are coming along as well, but they are not quite to the level the guitar market is. I'd say the pedal market is there... Nux, Joyo, Mooer, et al...

[Robertkoa]

@Rio..yes I agree these seem more as you say fair priced for how they Sound ( only based on Demos and good feedback from many Customers.

Here's the Hawk Jazz Standard ( Thinline ) - which I think is $ 1800.

Unfortunately the Player did not Demo the Guitar with the Tone Knob full up part of the time - but he was just Playing.

So a fairly high Price ...but has a nice Phatt Tone for a Thinline Semi ...very good sustain and really good uniformity/ evenness of Tone when crossing to the higher strings..and a ' singing' type Tone where the Notes seem to bloom a bit during first few seconds..

But yeah...$1800. is a pretty good chunk of $ so
the Seventy Sevens seem to be high end Guitars for quite reasonable money - I have violated my own Thread haha..

[Bach5G]

Reverend has caught my eye, particularly the Pete Anderson (whoever he is) Eastsider T model. Tele update.

[vintagelove]

Peerless makes a hell of an instrument.

[rio]

@Rio..yes I agree these seem more as you say fair priced for how they Sound ( only based on Demos and good feedback from many Customers.

Here's the Hawk Jazz Standard ( Thinline ) - which I think is $ 1800.

Unfortunately the Player did not Demo the Guitar with the Tone Knob full up part of the time - but he was just Playing.

So a fairly high Price ...but has a nice Phatt Tone for a Thinline Semi ...very good sustain and really good uniformity/ evenness of Tone when crossing to the higher strings..and a ' singing' type Tone where the Notes seem to bloom a bit during first few seconds..

But yeah...$1800. is a pretty good chunk of $ so
the Seventy Sevens seem to be high end Guitars for quite reasonable money - I have violated my own Thread haha..

Man, that sure a nice sounding guitar and it looks great too. A Seventy Seven is definitely on my wish list - there aren’t a ton of samples out there but every one I have heard has been good and they are doing the Gibson thing better than Gibson in a lot of ways.


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[Thumpalumpacus]

Reverend has caught my eye, particularly the Pete Anderson (whoever he is) Eastsider T model. Tele update.

He's one hell of a good guitarist. Played lead with Dwight Yoakam for years -- maybe he still does, I don't know -- and is a standout country guitarist.

[Robertkoa]

Man, that sure a nice sounding guitar and it looks great too. A Seventy Seven is definitely on my wish list - there aren’t a ton of samples out there but every one I have heard has been good and they are doing the Gibson thing better than Gibson in a lot of ways.


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Yeah ..I had not thought about the looks...I like unbound fingerboards better ( not a make or break thing though)...and it does look really nice.

On this clip...it actually reminds me a quite a bit of the Marchione Semi Hollow despite the Marchione being 25.5" scale.

The Seventy Seven Fat Hawk thicker Body sounds slightly Phatter- great archtop sounds just from Demos but I might have more fun with the thinner one...
Somebody at Seventy Seven has some good ears for Tone because even the little Albatross Jazz is a deep sounding Guitar for such a little body...

Here's another one with less Treble Roll-off:And this one may be the Thinline Jazz Hawk ( thinner Body ).

I think on the Thinline version- hard to be certain without Playing one but I am thinking it would sound even better with that Neck Pickup right near the Fingerboard.

It' s tricky becoming a Tone Detective ... but glad to have Options.

The advantage to me of a Thinline Hollow is being able to wail away unplugged at 3 AM without disturbing anyone .. ..or Record silently when I get to that again..

Also the 'Superstrat ' type Guitar I have now is probably more Resonant and louder acoustically and very deep for that 'Type' Instrument than most 335's - so want to make a clear step 'deeper'.
I don't like to have a lot of Guitars....

[Robertkoa]

I could not figure out why Prestige said the single cut Musician and Double Cut sounded very similar.

Turns out they had an earlier Model called Musician Standard which is fully hollow still Thinline but has a huge , phatt, beefy sound.

These are probably 10s and quick demo by a non Jazz Player so the Articulation is not here .

But listen to it- starts out on Bridge PU then the Neck.

I was trying to see if they might reissue with a Trapeze or even a tiny block just under Stoptail.

It might be wider than the other Single cut.

Guy mentioned they have to order 6 at a Time but didn't get to finish the Conversation:

Prestige Musician Standard* ( fully Hollow )

*Some haveCenter Block all the way BUT they all sound Phatt because they are very wide.

"Past Model " but .....they will probably make it again IF they get 6 orders.

EDIT-This Model is called Musician Standard and DOES have MUCH more bottom end - It was 17.5" wide at lower bout.!

The Red one in Guitar World Demo IS the Standard but played probably with .010s and not picked like a Jazzer or Fusion Player and yes as you Guys pointed out Amp not dialed in for Clean Headroom.

He dialed in OVERDRIVE on the Amp THEN lowered Guitar Volume for pseudo clean tone ...