Chorus Effect in Jazz?

[omphalopsychos]

My ear associates chorus with 80s pop rock. I perceive the sound as unnatural and overly electronic. Yet some people propose the use of chorus for jazz. I don't mean the Pat Metheny synth sound, since I group even that into the 80s over-processed electronic instrument category of sounds. But some people propose chorus as a an effect to add depth and warmth to the original signal. Can someone post examples of that is meant by that? Is it essentially chorus that's low enough that it's hardly noticeable?

[rochroch]

Agreed. The Metheny chorus thing was a faux attempt to recapture the character of the acoustic (12 str ?) guitar which is lost w electroamplification -- not so much w very high-end hand-carved instruments, and An early attempt to recreate the lost aura around notes that provides a very pleasurable listening experience. I've chased that grail too, most successfully by using very tiny amounts of delay. Yes almost imperceptible. It's something that you only notice if you are directed to. Otherwise you don't but you know when it's not there.

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[docbop]

Pat was using two of the early MXR bucket brigade digital delays. The bucket brigade delays were the earliest of the digital delays, we had one for awhile at Sound City for evaluation and the MXR was the first one for guitars that I remember. They were a big blue rackmount device that then went to two Acoustic 4x10" amps.

[Dave24309]

Even though it is a chorus effect, I think I read he gets there with a pitch shift effect. Mike Stern uses a pitch shift to get his chorus sound, too.

[Meggy]

I rather like chorus, maybe with a bit of delay. There's a patch on my new Boss MS-3 that has chorus plus a bit of swooshy flanger and delays that gives a really lush kind of ambient sound, very nice for creating a bit of a moody "soundscape" ... I'll get me coat...

[Jake Hanlon]

the guys in the 70s and 80s using chorus were trying to get a more vocal like quality to their sound. I never got that until Mike Stern explained it to me and I got to sit in front of him playing, and then it made perfect sense.

I keep a chorus pedal on my board because I love the sound that it can add to chords. The Guitar is an instrument that needs a little bit of help to get some variety, Chorus pedals are great for adding a new dimension to the sound. That being said... it's entirely too easy to over do it.

In some of the late 60's Wes Montgomery stuff he used a chorus effect. I can't remember exactly what recordings. It offered a more 'string' quality to blend with the orchestras, very subtle. Many of his disciples adopted it as well (Benson, Martino). Jim Hall used a chorus pedal to simulate the sound of steel drums. I never cared for it.

[Greentone]

The only "movement" effect I ever really dug was Hendrix's use of a Leslie...and perhaps also Clapton's use of a Leslie.

Otherwise, I wish nobody ill in getting their sounds. After all, what the heck does it matter to the rest of the world what I prefer in a guitar sound.

[whiskey02]

Iifr, the first time I heard a chorus effect was on a Police song; I described it as " a watery" sound. That is, I asked a friend "what is that watery guitar sound on (?) walking on the moon".

[mr quick]

I love chorus, it's my favorite effect. I've got a ton, including early MIJ CE units.

The most -subtle- chorus I have is the Ibanez CSMINI mini chorus. It does what you describe, add a subtle warmth and depth to the sound. A level switch is essential, which is why I rarely use my older CE's for "contemporary" sounds.

I think a chorus -can- add that depth and work in jazz, but much like wearing a flashy shirt or playing the wrong note, do so with conviction. There's nothing worse than a metheny impersonator with an unconvincing chorus sound :P

[Greentone]

There's nothing worse than a metheny impersonator with an unconvincing chorus sound :P

This is pretty much true. If you are my generation--Metheny is about a year older than me--then Metheny, Stern, Scofield, et al., are sounds you hit your stride on.

I discovered early on that I sounded like garbage trying to emulate those guys, so I put my delays, shifter, and chorus pedals in a box--along with my OLD Cry Baby, LPB-1, and MXR equlazer pedals--and stored them in the basement where they've been ever since. _Once_, I was tempted to go find my Small Stone to dredge up a blast from the past, but nah.

I sound better aping Burrell, Montgomery, and Ellis than I do trying to sound like my own generation. I figure it's because I didn't grow up on the sounds of guys my age.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Even though it is a chorus effect, I think I read he gets there with a pitch shift effect. Mike Stern uses a pitch shift to get his chorus sound, too.

Chorus is achieved by separating the signal, and then treating one (or more) channel(s) to varying delay in order to introduce microtonal pitch changes fluctuating in real-time. Both chorus and flanging are essentially delay effects, varying basically in feedback strength and depth/speed of tuning discrepancy.

[Greentone]

Even the Leslie rotating speaker baffle in a cabinet is doing something like that. What it does is produce a doppler effect. If you are standing in a position next to a train track, a locomotive coming towards you and blowing its whistle will be perceived as a rising pitch. As the locomotive passes and goes away--still blowing its whistle--the pitch drops. This is the doppler effect.

The rotating speaker (baffle) does this by varying the distance from the point of the origin of the sound to your ear--slightly increasing it and reducing it as the baffle rotates. (The baffle has a slit through which the sound emanates.) Leslie cabinets are terrific sounding, particularly when the speed changes and the treble horn and bass driver baffle/drum speed up/slow down at different speeds because of their mass differentials. It's pretty chaotic sounding, at that point.

As a B3 player, I enjoy the speed change on the Leslie even more than I enjoy the sound of an L-5 through a great Twin Reverb.

[Max405]

The only "movement" effect I ever really dug was Hendrix's use of a Leslie...and perhaps also Clapton's use of a Leslie.

Otherwise, I wish nobody ill in getting their sounds. After all, what the heck does it matter to the rest of the world what I prefer in a guitar sound.

A B3 and a Leslie is Peanut butter and jelly. Apricot for me.
Although, Carlos Santana used it nicely on Europa.

Chorus Is ok, as long as it's not too prominent. Just a faint shimmer in the background is nice. I like a phaser. Like Grant Geismann used. Love it.
JD

[henryrobinett]

I like chorus. I've tried to wean myself. But on a gig I tend to turn it on, like a baby needing his blanky. I know it's dated and makes me sound like Stern or Sco (comments I've heard recently). But I don't mind. It's a cozy sound for me.

[henryrobinett]

PLUS - I'll say this. It's also a reaction I have towards jazz guitarists who never want to leave the age old jazz guitar sound of the 50s-60s. My feeling is guitar SOUND has changed dramatically since then. Distortion, reverb, delays have become a real art form of tone. But the old and young conservative guard wants to hold everything the same and will criticize anything that steps out of the tried and true blessed by Wes and Hall tones. Drives me up the wall.

[Woody Sound]

FWIW, I really like using chorus with acoustic git.

[teeps]

I think the guitar player to the right (Steffen Brix) has a touch of chorus in his sound especially audible in the parts where he plays rythm. Even if he did not it is still a nice listen.

To my ears chorus effect can be used to make the sound a bit more smooth and in a stereo setup add a spatial effect. I don't think it makes anything sound more natural.

[sgosnell]

I tried using chorus on a 5-string electric mandolin, to get something that imitated the sound of an acoustic mandolin, double-strung. It's ok, with just a hint of chorus, worse with more. In the end, it's just more trouble than it's worth to set up the pedal. But that's just me, YMMV.

[henryrobinett]

The chorus sounds subtle to me. But there's also delay, reverb and a huge amount of compression, probably post - in the mix. A nice tube opto compressor set too high. A lot of engineers did that with guitar because of its spikey transients.


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[rpjazzguitar]

A couple of thoughts on chorus, which I like a little more than I should.

1. If it sounds good to me while I'm playing, it will usually sound too thick on the recording.

2. A little goes a long way.

3. My Boss ME50 had a stereo chorus setting which required two amps. I used it a lot. I loved how thick and spacious it sounded. Later, I discovered that one side was wet and one dry, that the chorus effect occurred in the air of the room as the wet and dry signals met. The bad part was that it would sound horribly detuned in different places within the room (not at my ears, which were usually equidistant). I got complaints about playing out of tune so I stopped using it. It disappeared from the subsequent Boss units

4. While I like the washy sound a lot the musicians that I play with don't like it much. Gotta pick the spots.

5. Mike Stern was using a harmonizer set on zero. Perhaps someone can explain why that results in a thickening of the sound. I use that trick, but I don't know why it works.

[Herbie]

This is a tough one.

I agree Henryrobinett that past is past, we electric guitarists could sound more contemporary and play with sounds.

But I personally just can't!

It is not about wanting to sound like an old era guitar or any theoretical reason. I can't stand chorus (nor flanger, phaser of even vibrato) in my own playing because they somehow take the dynamics away, they soften the power of the notes I try to play. And to my odd ears they spoil the melody. With any of these 'moving' effects I don't hear the composition anymore, I just hear the effect, waving and waving mechanically.

I guess I like the basic sound of a good guitar and an amp too much to color it too much. A bit of reverb is enough for me for getting ethereal feel.

But this is just me, YMMV!

[henryrobinett]

Rpjazzguitar. Re Stern's chorus. I found out we used the same. I used Pitch Change C on the SPX-90. I think I had an engineer set it for me initially. +8, -8. I dug the sound. He was no
Jazz guy. Long before Stern , I think.

But in the mid 80s I heard Stern in NYC. We talked after the gig and he let me play his Tele. I saw he used my exact setting for his SPX-90! He used this for a very long time. Very recognizable. I don't know about harmonizer set to
zero though.


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[grahambop]

I don't mean any disrespect, but this is hardly subtle to my ears. The playing is wonderful though.

I meant it sounds less 'processed' than they used to be back in the 80s. I have earlier recordings with Scofield or Abercrombie where the chorus effect is so heavy it's actually unpleasant to listen to, for me anyway.

[rpjazzguitar]

I am not familiar with the SPX90. Stern was interviewed in GP some years back. I think that's where I learned about the harmonizer.

I use a Boss ME80. If you set the harmonizer on zero (no pitch change) you get a sound that others have told me is like Stern's. For some reason the zero setting has an effect on the sound. It thickens it, for want of a better term. I find it useful.

I'm wondering if C, +8, -8 might do something similar.

[henryrobinett]

The -8/+8 refers to the amount detuning, which gives it the chorus effect.


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