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- I have a K&K Definity. It's easy to install with no mods but a bit sensitive to what part of the bridge you're under. Mine needs a lot of EQ no matter where it's installed and still sounds just OK.
- Have a couple of guitars with a K&K archtop installed by a decent tech. Had high hopes but they kind of suck for archtops. These pickups are very sensitive to bridge location. Something that you will be changing from time to time. BTW, the K&K model for upright bass is identical to the archtop model they stopped making.
Don't care for the sound of piezo's so a Fishman bridge is out.
PUTW is a long strip under the bridge. Not sure if it would impact transfer of energy from bridge to top. Keeps me from springing $170 to see if I like it.
Barbera setup makes me wonder about how you're supposed they do string compensation at the bridge. If there was a good solution for that and I could hear one in person might consider experimenting with one.
If you want to rebuild an acoustic magnetic pickup, remember the distance to the strings. You'll need to mount it from the neck or pickguard and that will take some creative modifications. If you're building an oval hole, the only pickup that will work (that I know of) with the geometry of an archtop is a Sunrise. You can shim the mounts and there's a lot of pole adjustment.
Other considerations: If you're running through a guitar amp, you're not going to sound very acoustic. Also you'll need to match the impedance of whatever you install (often 10 MOhms) while many guitar amps are set up for the regular guitar pickups (7 KOhms). For an acoustic sound you'll need something more like an AER or Schertler rig. Also, you'll need a lot of EQ. Like an Empress ParaEQ. Of course there's a mic, but that's a different topic.
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12-15-2016 04:07 PM
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Take look inside those archtops to see where the tech put the Pure Archtops. Sounds like the stock installation just inside of the f holes. In the right place these take very little eq.
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If the guitar doesn't have a good acoustic sound to begin with a bridge pickup is the way to go. One of the tuneomatic styles with transducers for Les Pauls etc... might be a good drop in for an archtop as well. If a plank can sound good a hollowbody should too. Anyone tried one of these in any kind of guitar?
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Good thought. Thing is, once you move the bridge which is likely to happen over the life of the guitar, the transducer is then in the wrong spot. And as you alluded to, these need to be positioned well. Also with the 2 transducer system (flat tops get 3) there does seem to be something missing. I suppose if you're mixing it with a humbucker that wouldn't matter so much.
Originally Posted by Cavalier
I like K&K quite a bit for flat tops. Less so for archtops.
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I started with the recommended area and found it thin sounding. Doing my cello with the transducers under the feet got me inspired as the sound was so good. I've done several installations now with them under the bridge foot area inside the top and the sound is great. Inside the top takes out the brittle highs and the 3/4" pickups are large enough to allow for considerable movement and stay in the ballpark for tone. If you have yours next to the f holes I'd suggest keeping them but adding a pair under the bridge feet area inside or adding their top mounted pure floating pickup.
K&K is great as you can get one of their engineers on the phone for non stock situations. My Ovation 1115 12 string sounds fantastic and uses a 2 3/4"" big twin system. I sent in a picture of the bracing and said where do you think and we went from there.
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A couple thoughts from a Barbera Soloist owner. To get an amplified acoustic component to your sound with your magnetic tone I have had success by:
- running the barbera with a volume pot almost fully open with the magnetic pickup adjusted volume and tone wise.
- using a stereo cable to connect the guitar to a two channel amp (I use a AI Clarus)
- adjusting the volume from the barbera down to 20-30% of the volume of the magnetic pickup channel
- using a two-way speaker (I use a buscarino chameleon) to capture the high frequency partials
The barbera is quiet, doesn't pickup string or body noises. It sounds very good to me, and captures enough of the acoustic content to add some ambience to my magnetic sound. I do not use it straight without my Kent Armstrong.
Hope that helps!
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I run stereo on instruments with both magnetic and transducer pickups as well but often play with just the K&ks for an acoustic sound. Sometimes I'll add a bit of the transducers into the neck mag pickup for more presence and definition.
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I have a Loar 600 that I need to amplify.
What would you do? Pickups, preamps, amp advice needed.
Swing Ensemble (Ellington, etc) for Lindy Hop Dancers, Gypsy, Solo Acoustic Jazz, Accompanying singers. Vintage Swing.
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It depends. Do you want it to sound like an acoustic or an electric when it's amplified? You have to consider that before picking an amplifier.
For acoustic, your options are:
1) Some external condenser microphone.
- pros: highest fidelity audio
- cons: have to stay in position. possibility of feedback.
2) A lavalier condenser microphone
- pros: also great fidelity, less feedback prone?
- cons: still come feedback
3) Piezo
- pros: extremely simple and cheap (k&k definity)
- cons: need a dedicated preamp depending on the amplifier you're using. some piezos sound quacky without proper EQ.
For an electric tone, you only have one real option:
1) floating pickup of some type
- single coils: armstrong, dearmond
- humbuckers: armstrong, lollar, benedetto/SD
If you're getting an acoustic amp, depending on your budget, take a look at Fishman, Schertler, AER, Acoustic Image (sorted by increasing cost).
If you're going the electric route, well there's too many options to list.
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Great advice. Thanks. I'm looking for the amplified acoustic sound. K&K is on the list with preamp and AER 60. Still not sure what's best. Djangobooks has so many choices. I'm a fish out of water when it comes to acoustic. Electric? Eastman and Polytone. Acoustic? I'm a dunce.
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You will appreciate this post then: The realities of playing Acoustic Swing Rhythm Guitar — Jonathan Stout and his Campus Five featuring Hilary Alexander
My personal recommendation is a lavalier mic and either the AER or the Schertler. I've never played an AER but I have heard great things. I personally have a Schertler and it's really great. I have the k&k definity on one of my archtops that also has a magnetic pickup. That way I can blend the sound, but the piezo on its own might disappoint if you want a high fidelity reproduction of your original sound.
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Both the AER and the Schertler are great, maybe get the K&K installed and play them both to form a personal opinion? I preferred the AER because of lighter weight, plus i liked its sound a lot more.
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My experience after quite a few experiments: Any kind of archtop-piezo (either contact-PU or bridge-pu) only works (FOR ME!) for blended sounds (Mag+piezo), ideally amplified through separate channels because you can then EQ both signals independently (doing e.g. some kind of cross-over between mag and Piezo).
If you're after the acoustic sound, I would definitely go with a mic. If you need to move, it would have to be one of the clip-on mics.
Of course it also depends on the sound in the mix of the whole band. A piezo could work perfectly well, if it pushes the needed frequencies through the mix of the band. With piezos/contact-PUs I just never found a sound I'd also would want to practice with (or listen to the amplified sound for a long time).
(And with some contact PUs the top can become very sensitive to finger noise.)
Just my 2cents...
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When I listen to period recordings that feature acoustic archtops I find the sound of these guitars
to be rather muted, not bright at all - they pump out the rhythm along with the drums and
if there is a short solo then the guitar gets a little louder (closer to a mic?) but still not overly
bright. In my experience it's the high mids that carry the tone of any un-amplified guitar, flat-top or
archtop (the silky bright highs get lost quickly and most guitars don't put out a lot of bass anyway since they are simply too small). So I would go for a feedback- resistant dynamic mic feeding a warm sounding preamp, maybe one with
2 channels so I could dial in a seperate rhythm and lead setting, via a simple A/B type footswitch. Never would I use a piezo pup for an old-style sound and I've had good results with the Armstrong PAF floater tweaked with an eq pedal and an original 1100 Rhythm Chief .
In general, I don't base my judgements re gear and tone etc. on hearsay or obscure youtube clips (ok, sometimes I do
learn something watching a band performance : Hot Club of Cowtown, The Earregulars, Matt Munisteri, Marty Grosz, Anthony Wilson) -
hands-on experience on stage is of the essence.
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I have a Fishman pickup as a bridge replacement and still have to find a better pickup for my Höfner. It has great output and is good for rhythm and some lead, as long as you don't need an explicitly electric sound. I play it through a Marshall acoustic amp and people have frequently complimented me on my sound, starting with the person in the shop where I bought the amp.
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I like the Krivo pickups. These are magnetic p'ups that you blu tack onto your guitar.
They don't give you a true acoustic sound, but sound pretty good and they are practical and easy to use. You might want to consider one as a standby for a less reliable option such as a lavelier mic or something?
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Pick Up The World pickups work well for archtops, they are a thin film of mylar you would place under the feet of the bridge. Some sort of preamp (I like the Zoom A3, which also has a mic input) is really necessary for controlling the EQs and volume for each different situation, and the A3 is very easy to operate, you could use a pickup and a mic in combination; there is a boost button on it for soloing, as well.
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Old recordings don't sound bright at least in part because of technology. The microphones and recording equipment didn't reproduce the higher frequencies well. You're not hearing the actual sound on any recording, just what the equipment could capture, even on modern recordings. Everyone wants to sound like what they hear on recordings, even though that's rarely what the original sound was.
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Ellington for Lindy Hop Dancers.... you mean like: Originally Posted by Richard Luther
Both videos I was using an clip-on gooseneck lavalier mic, into the PA. The article linked above has a pretty good listing of the method, and I've outlined it on here several times if you feel like searching.
The long and short of it: lavalier mic that clips on the guitar so it can pointed at the top, into a mute pedal, into the PA or an acoustic amp.
The two most important things are monitor/amp placement to make sure the mic is off-axis to the speakers, and having a mute switch so that you can turn it on and off at will.
If you wanted to go for extra points, you can add an A/B box so you can run to two different channels (that's how I jumped up in volume for the solo on "The Mooche" above).
As far as pre-amps, I've heard the Headway pre-amps are extraordinary for these kinds of mics and these exact kinds of applications. But, I just straight into the PA or amp, and I don't adjust the EQ at all.
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Oh, and gyspy jazz....
To be fair the cell phone video is a bit distorted, but that's the same mic setup. Different guitar - and that's a smaller gig where I was running the PA.
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And as far as solo acoustic/accompanying singers - I did that last week with my L-5 into and AER Compact 60, and it works great.
The biggest thing is monitor/speaker - but once you place things thoughtfully, it works really, really well.
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While I have nothing but admiration for the very few that have dialed this in for stage, unless you have a compelling reason to go with a mic, it's simply too hard.
K&K Bass model (they don't make the archtop any more but bass is same thing) is fine until you need to adjust the position of the bridge for any reason (seasonal, string change, et al). This is why they work well on flat tops but not so much on archtops.
The K&K Definity works OK, super easy to install, and it's cheap. Mine takes a lot of EQ dialing making me appreciate the Empress ParaEQ. I've never really bonded with mine but even if it doesn't work out you're not out much. Just try it under a few different places under the bridge. It can make quite a difference.
Acoustic strings over a Kent Armstrong hand wound have a nice sound. Through a good acoustic amp night/day from a polytone.
So since you don't have a soundhole to drop an acoustic magnetic pickup into, my recommendation would be acoustic strings, a full range humbucker or single coil with adjustable pole pieces on your pickguard, a K&K Definity under the bridge more on the treble side, and run both to a stereo output jack to be mixed downstream. Won't be perfect but it will be good and won't drive you crazy.
And for amps, I really prefer the Schertler Jam 200 over the AER 60. Would recommend trying both before you commit.Last edited by Spook410; 06-24-2017 at 02:29 PM.
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Exactly, mostly we base our preferences on these recordings made at a time when the quality of the equipment used wasn't that great - but don't we also refer to that sound as "that vintage sound" ?
I had the great pleasure to watch Marty Grosz play live in a small courtyard , backed by a small combo including drums and the tone he got with his (down-tuned in 5ths) 20' L5 was just right : thumping, driving and not too bright and when he took a solo the drummer simply - almost - disappeared. The mic that was in front of his guitar looked like a small diaphragm condenser but I doubt that a different type would have made a noticeable difference in tone. I'd go with a dynamic mic for they are normally less prone to feedback and built to withstand the handling of your usual, careful stage hands ...????
Originally Posted by sgosnell
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Thanks for all the advice guys. Love your work Jonathan. Exactly what I'm putting together here in San Antonio.
Since when on the general subject of Acoustic Archtop tone and amplification.....
What about string gauge, string type and action height? What are you guys doing?
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I use TI plectrum strings ATM (.12 IIRC) - they sound great to me! Originally Posted by Richard Luther
Monels are nice too.
In general I have decided not to punish myself with actions etc... You can go crazy if you want.
BTW - I keep meaning to give a DPA mic a go at some point. It's a big punt without trying it on a gig though. I notice that Chico Pinheiro appears to use one in addition to his magnetic sound, with drums... Also Julian Lage was using one on his old L5?
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