Solid State Amps and Tone

[coolvinny]

I don't know what exactly is happening in the amp/cabinet/speaker/guitar/picku-up chain, but my laminate archtop with 13 roundwounds, heavy pick and Lollar Imperial HB through my Henriksen Alfresco 12" open back gets break-up on the tone. More so than when I used flatwounds. Overall, it's a pleasing tone with some character. Tube amps usually sound a bit sweeter when I plug into them, but the solid state Henriksen Alfresco - especially since I switched to roundwound strings and went back to my Lollar Imperial HB - approximates some of that tube break-up.

I feel no need to add a pedal.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Even when run clean, tube amps add a little THD in even-order harmonics which can sometimes build up to produce a little hair. I don't mind that myself; I like to open up a tube amp and ride the volume from the guitar to attenuate that effect. Having said that, if I'm playing for pristine cleans, a SS amp will get 'er done with no problem.

I prefer a medium-wattage tube amp wide-open and let my ears determine the guitar's volume so I can hit that sweet spot where I can float between pretty-clean and a-little-hairy. My goal is to let my fingers determine the audible distortion. That's usually loud enough for moderate combo playing.

[abelljo]

Today the tone difference between SS and tubes is almost gone. The main issue is portability and reliability. If you're a gigging musician, you'd be taking a risk by going to a gig with a tube amp without back up. I work on, sell and build tube amps as a side thing and also play them. But I know they are very fragile and transporting them alone can cause failures.

The blues cubes for example do such an excellent job of sounding like a tube amp that I certainly can't tell the difference. I currently own a 5F6A that I built with 2X10 and a new Roland JC40 I fear taking the bassman clone because I know how temperamental tbe amps are and how new components are so prone to failure, especially modern tubes

[Cunamara]

It is worth mentioning that Wes did use a Standel solid state amp for a while. I thought it sounded really good.

And other solid-state players included Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, Jim Hall, George Benson, Ed Bickert... so,id state guitar amps have been around since the very early 60s.

Also bear in mind that in those old recordings we are hearing contrubutions from ribbon mics, tube-driven mixers and recording desks and very different recording strategies. Much of that classic tone is due to factors beyond the guitar and amp. Some of them were the guitar straight to the desk, no amp.

In terms of what solid state brings, it depends on the amp. A Polytone Mini Brute II sound different from a Standel from Roland 120 from a Cube from an AI from a Quilter from a Henricksen, etc. But in general- clean overhead, lighter weight (in some cases), very little maintenance, greater tone shaping control.

[gggomez]

I have always had tube amps and was really questioning my purchase of a Quilter. Princeton was still in for repairs.

Got the Princeton back and was able to rehearse with it and the Quilter 2inch MicroProHD at rehearsals in an 7 piece band.
Not even close.

Quilter was so much clearer, warmer and more sparkle. The sound just cuts through, I guess because of the tone shape that is it has mids, but also extended highs (I have been looking at humbucker sized P90s for my 175 but now I do not think so). It is everything I wanted the Princeton to be. Its hairy edge of break up sound when you dig in is so suite. Then back off the picking force and it sounds like Midnight Blue. Princeton is for sale.

[entresz]

I have a Quilter Aviator Twin Ten. Great amp irrespective of it being tube or solid state. Voiced kind of like a Fender, but with much less of a dip in the mids and less boom on the low end (probably due to having 10'' speakers vs 12'').

It also has a really good 'hi-cut' (presence) control. With this on zero the amp has extended highs, great for the low impedance pickups in my LP Recording, with it on 10 the high treble is cut. Good for a more lo-fi vintage kind of tone.

I generally run the mids pretty high because I like that 40's/50's 'honk' in my guitar sound. A really terrific amp.

Does it stop me from gassing over an octal preamp Ampeg? No - but it's much more easy to gig with.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Today the tone difference between SS and tubes is almost gone. The main issue is portability and reliability. If you're a gigging musician, you'd be taking a risk by going to a gig with a tube amp without back up. I work on, sell and build tube amps as a side thing and also play them. But I know they are very fragile and transporting them alone can cause failures.

I've gigged many, many years running a silverface Bassman and a Peavey VK212, both 100w 6L6 amps, north of five on the dial without a failure. They were slung into and out of my truck without an issue. I never built them or sold them, but I sure rode them like a rented mule ... with no problems.

My first tube failure came with the EL-84 amp I got a couple of years ago, and I've gone through a few power tubes on that one. I'll never buy another amp using that tube.

Not all tubes are equal. Nor is tone.

[goldenwave77]

I think amp differences have a bigger impact than different guitars, in a lot of cases.

To me, the biggest difference in SS v. tube, is the "attack"...you hit the note with a SS amp, and "it's right there", while tube amps have a slight sag or delay to them.

Truth be told, great sounds can be had out of all of them. My $75 "orange cube", 40 W Roland sounds great, and is probably what I play the most. But my pride and joy is a 150W Sundown, 1 x 12 tube amp with an EV12L....this sounds incredibly rich AND precise with that speaker...it makes a solid-body sound like an archtop, and the amp itself really is an instrument in its own right.

I also think SS amps with big, lush-sounding guitars can sound really good, and complement each other. I sometimes think Benedetto type, acoustic-y guitars sound a little TOO austere with SS.

Conversely, a laminate sound with its "snap" and slight tonal compression, can benefit from a little tube warmth...Jim Hall's old 175 sound with those big old vintage Gibson tube amps is great.

[abelljo]

You've been lucky I have 2 buddies both are gear heads and have too many amps in my opinion. Half of them are always broken. One client brought be a peavey tube amp from that tween series so many times that the last time I fed it I told him to just sell it and get rid of it. I guess I see things from a different persepective as being in the service side of things as well.

I love tube amps and until recently I would not consider anything else, but solid state amps are there when it comes to tone in my opinion. I love the sound Robben Ford and Chuck Loeb got on their Youtube Blues Cube videos.

I sent them to my old man and he went and got one. Same situation. Been playing tube amps in NY all his life, but reliability and portability being an issue he decided to get the Roland and a Katana. And he's a tone freek!. I'm 41 he's 61 and he's tone search is never ending...


He's not a "Jazz guy" though

[rpjazzguitar]

When I saw Jack Wilkins, Joe Cohn, Mark Whitfield and Vic Juris at the Zinc Bar in August, it looked like Jack was playing through an AER60 (if anybody knows for sure, please post). Whatever it was, it was tiny.

His tone was so good I felt the urge to sell my stuff and buy exactly what he was using -- an urge I've only felt a few times in my life.

The others also sounded great, but I'm not sure what they were using.

It's hard for me to imagine that he would have sounded better with a tube amp or any other gear substitution.

My conclusion is that solid state can work at the highest levels.

[Stringswinger]

When I saw Jack Wilkins, Joe Cohn, Mark Whitfield and Vic Juris at the Zinc Bar in August, it looked like Jack was playing through an AER60 (if anybody knows for sure, please post). Whatever it was, it was tiny.

His tone was so good I felt the urge to sell my stuff and buy exactly what he was using -- an urge I've only felt a few times in my life.

The others also sounded great, but I'm not sure what they were using.

It's hard for me to imagine that he would have sounded better with a tube amp or any other gear substitution.

My conclusion is that solid state can work at the highest levels.

No doubt. I have used my AER Compact 60 on many, many gigs (saving my middle aged back a lot of grief) with fine results. My tube amp (a 1964 Princeton with a JBL D-110F) is for the studio, not a noisy restaurant or drinking establishment.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I think amp differences have a bigger impact than different guitars, in a lot of cases.

To me, the biggest difference in SS v. tube, is the "attack"...you hit the note with a SS amp, and "it's right there", while tube amps have a slight sag or delay to them.

[...]

and the amp itself really is an instrument in its own right.

Agreed on each of these points. Solid-state tends to be a little more crisp in attack, and in a good SS amp the decay is just as rich as a good tube amp.

When I play electric guitar, I think of it as playing the entire signal chain as a single instrument, involving playing the guitar, using its controls as needed on the fly, channel-switching, bringing effects in and out of the sound, and even positioning myself relative to the amp for feedback. Just a somewhat complicated instrument.

[Herbie]

Guitar players are in general very conservative and backward thinking. The golden age of jazz guitar (50's and 60's) and rock guitar (60's and 70's) were before high quality SS came along, tubes ruled and many listen with their eyes and just wont let go. Tubes can be great, SS can be too. I find it funny that folks who insist SS sucks, plug into a SS pedal to create some level of distortion for their beloved tubes to amplify. Good tube amps generally cost more and can have maintenance costs, but if you're not pushing the amp like EVH, tubes can last decades. Most SS amps, if it needs repairing you'll dump it in the trash and get a new one, because the amp is worth $350 and it'll cost more than that to try to fix it. I love tubes and transistors.
Play both and decide what you like, or get both!

Guitarists conservative? The sax players use an instrument that was patented in 1846. Is someone saying that the sax players are conservative? No, everybody says they are sooo great cool players!

Maybe the guitarists could learn a bit of same approach: don't buy every new gadget but create Your sound with the guitar, on the transaction between Your mind, heart, fingers and the strings.

About the tube and ss amps I somehow agree!

[oldane]

Guitarists conservative? The sax players use an instrument that was patented in 1846. Is someone saying that the sax players are conservative? No, everybody says they are sooo great cool players.

Partly OT:

Well, the sax has evolved too over the years. For one thing, the bore size has changed. And more than the sax itself, the mouthpieces have changed a lot from the ones with round chambers and very close tip openings to the multitude of chamber shapes seen these days and wider tip openings. It was a change which was adopted by jazz musicians in the 1940s when new "boutique" mouthpiece makers like Bobby Dukoff, Arnold Brilhart and Sandy Runyon developed their new designs - often in collaboration with famous jazz musicians of the day.

The white mouthpiece Charlie Parker used in the 1940s was given to him by Bobby Dukoff.

In the 1930s Lester Young used an old fashioned close tip opening and round chambered Link mouthpiece. Around 1943 he swapped to a more open and square chambered Brilhart and his tone changed considerably. My guess is he felt "choked" with the old mouthpiece and wanted something more flexible. In the first years after the swap you can hear his playing has opened up, got more free. Later on he was increasingly handicapped by health problems and a gradually worsening alcoholism which was reflected in his sound and playing. Also, at a point he began using plastic reeds instead of cane reeds which IMHO didn't do anything good for his tone. But the mouthpiece can't be blamed for that.

Dexter Gordon never sounded better than he did with the metal Dukoff mouthpiece he used from the late 1940s until his sax was stolen in Paris around 1965. It's interesting to note that he got that huge sound of his despite the mouthpice only had a moderate size tip opening and by todays standards it would be judged as close.

[Scotto]

For me, tubes at the house, SS on the road, or just do like Pat Martino does and carry your SS head to the gig and play through your requested cabinet.!

[LtKojak]

I can't believe in 2017 the topic of "tubes vs. SS" is still a subject of debate.

Guitar players are not much better than Neanthertals when it comes to gear.

And yes, I AM a guitar player too, so I'm allowed to bash the entire demographic to my heart's content!!!!!

[Herbie]

Partly OT:

Well, the sax has evolved too over the years. For one thing, the bore size has changed. And more than the sax itself, the mouthpieces have changed a lot from the ones with round chambers and very close tip openings to the multitude of chamber shapes seen these days and wider tip openings. It was a change which was adopted by jazz musicians in the 1940s when new "boutique" mouthpiece makers like Bobby Dukoff, Arnold Brilhart and Sandy Runyon developed their new designs - often in collaboration with famous jazz musicians of the day.

The white mouthpiece Charlie Parker used in the 1940s was given to him by Bobby Dukoff.

In the 1930s Lester Young used an old fashioned close tip opening and round chambered Link mouthpiece. Around 1943 he swapped to a more open and square chambered Brilhart and his tone changed considerably. My guess is he felt "choked" with the old mouthpiece and wanted something more flexible. In the first years after the swap you can hear his playing has opened up, got more free. Later on he was increasingly handicapped by health problems and a gradually worsening alcoholism which was reflected in his sound and playing. Also, at a point he began using plastic reeds instead of cane reeds which IMHO didn't do anything good for his tone. But the mouthpiece can't be blamed for that.

Dexter Gordon never sounded better than he did with the metal Dukoff mouthpiece he used from the late 1940s until his sax was stolen in Paris around 1965. It's interesting to note that he got that huge sound of his despite the mouthpice only had a moderate size tip opening and by todays standards it would be judged as close.

Wow, thanks for the great information about the development of the mouthpiece!

But anyway: are sax players going nuts about modeling amps? No.

Is the whole subject in the weight of the instrument? Sax players have just one relatively light case when they go to gig. Electric guitar players have at least two packages to carry, guitar and the amp. Even the "first jazz amp" (?) Gibson EH-185 weighed 17 kg with 20W. Heavy, man! There is some motivation for technical innovations!

[grahambop]

Sax players have just one relatively light case when they go to gig.

[Herbie]

Kemper, help me!

[grahambop]

Bet he wishes he'd taken up the piccolo.

[mr. beaumont]

Late to the party, but for me, a good solid state amp (like my Henriksen) gives me consistency.

I can get it to sound the same at any volume, in any room. No surprises, no unwanted distortions, etc. It's also a great platform for a tube voiced preamp. So I can get a tube like tone (I swear good enough to "fool" anyone) and any volume anywhere.

[wzpgsr]

I’ve noticed that the differences between tube and certain solid state amps—even from one type of tube amp to another—aren’t as significant when comparing clean sounds. There is a much bigger difference I think when comparing break-up and overdrive characteristics.

[johnnyjazz]

All the tone should be in your fingers, oh and i have used an AER Compact 60 for years, never let me down.

[mr. beaumont]

All the tone should be in your fingers, oh and i have used an AER Compact 60 for years, never let me down.

I think tone has many elements. The quality of one's tone, intonation, inflection, dynamics, is all in the fingers. But the amp and guitar give you a base to work with.

To liken it to art, which I often do, the guitar and amp are your paint and brushes. If they're not good, you're going to have to work a bit harder with those hands.

[Bluedawg]

And bass saxophone prices starts around $8 or $10 grand and go up from there

And that's a contra bass sax ... which runs at least twice as much