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Given the marketing....I don't think these are meant to be "jazz guitars", but, as stated a few times in this thread, aimed at folks into the whole Americana thing. So, that aside, my biggest put-off after seeing a Deluxe in person is the big battery access panel by the strap pin. I was considering slapping a CC pickup in one, since there's not a great acoustic sound to begin with, and I thought it would make a nice platform, but at the end of the day, there are better options out there for me.
Originally Posted by MarkInLA
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05-06-2017 02:31 PM
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I wanted to add some reflections, having tried out the Deluxe and Zenith (both with f holes rather than o holes) in a local music shop for an extended time, and not having found many people reflecting on these instruments on the net.
I went in expecting to be immediately drawn to the Deluxe, with its bigger body it certainly has a much fuller sound than the Zenith. I spent a good amount of the time A/B ing the two guitars, mainly unplugged but also through an acoustic amp. Now my brief was to have an archtop with a good acoustic sound, and loud enough to jam with other acoustic instruments, as I find my laminate archtops very quiet and a bit disappointing unplugged. This is where the Zenith surprised me. The body is quite a bit smaller than the Deluxe, and the sound is much more focused in the midrange, but maybe because of this it seemed to project quite a bit more effectively than the Deluxe much to my surprise. Where the Deluxe sounded much more like a flat top guitar, the Zenith was much more distinctively my mental aural picture of an archtop, with a strident but by no means unpleasant sound, that I reckoned would hold its own well against other instruments both for chordal work and lead. It was a really tough choice between the two, but as the shop was offering a stupidly low price on the Zenith that was the one I walked out with, and I am extremely happy with the decision I have made.
I play a wide variety of musical styles, but I love jazz and switch between fingerstyle, plectrum chord work and lead lines. I was using my Resonator the last couple of weeks jamming around camp fires and I loved the fact that I could hold a lead line quite happily against three other guitars. The Zenith appears to have similar cutting power and is of course much nicer to play and has better intonation.
So what are the pros and cons? The guitar is beautifully finished, I have bought and sold a lot of far Eastern guitars over the years, and this Indonesian offering is up there among the best, the only obvious flaw is that the body of the guitar is unfinished under the fretboard overhang! The inlay, headstock and binding are very well executed, the fretwork is superb, and the action is amazing with no fret buzz, and low enough to make it feel like the strings are a much lighter gauge than the 12s that are fitted. I bought the sunburst finish and I love the fact that the sides look matt black in certain lights but in bright light the flamed maple glows through a very deep red. The guitar looks a bit too new at the moment but has the promise of an instrument that will age well. I like the smaller body, and the fact that Epiphone supply an unfitted pickguard, so you can choose whether to drill holes in your guitar to fit it. The guitar is a substantial nod to historical models rather than a faithful re-issue. As a gigging musician I am very happy with this, as it does what I want it to do at a price I can afford, but with none of the worries, inconvenience and maintenance of an older more pricey instrument. It sounds good and is a hugely different playing experience and timbre to my flat top guitars. I know it is controversial, but I like the fitted piezo, and subtly hidden controls. The piezo doesn't really sound much like the guitar unplugged, but in my experience they seldom do, but there is no way I am going to start adding floating pickups to this beauty. I see the piezo as a necessary evil if I need to plug in in a live situation, and some fiddling with the eq on my outboard preamp will get a rough approximation to the sound I want. The piezo doesn't sound bad, it just sounds like any guitar with a piezo! If I want more fidelity to the archtop sound and the sound engineer is up to it, I will use a mic, the guitar has plenty of projection to make this an easier prospect.
The Zenith is an honest and fairly priced instrument, that fills a niche in the market for someone like me who wants a louder affordable versatile acoustic archtop, with the ability to plug in at a pinch. It is not a faithful replica of a 1930s guitar, but it looks superb, is wonderfully finished and brings a big smile to my face when I strum a chord sequence or play a lead line.
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Great write up! Originally Posted by KJ8
The local Guitar Denter had a Zenith a while back, I played it for a few minutes and liked it, but had my sights on the Deluxe (which they didn't have in stock). Still would like to see the Deluxe in person to give it a go.
Thanks for taking the time to post this. Well written.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Still wonder what they would sound like when you slap in a good P90 and conventional electronics and ditch the whole piezo thing...
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Ok, after some research I conclude that installing a pickup that requires routing won't be that easy, since the bracing probably would need to be cut (although that area is not that critical and reinforcing the top is doable). The top does not seem to have a very pronounced arch, btw.
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It's a really shit pickup, tried one the other day.
Thanks for looking into this for us Little Jay... There are other options for a budget P90 equipped archtop though...
Guitar itself is nice enough.... It's not going to put up a fight against my Loar for acoustic projection, but the LH 600's seem to be rising in price and getting a bit harder to track down?
(Edit - wow, almost 1000 Euros now on Thomann.... Can't blame Brexit for that! I think at 1000 Euros, still cheaper than the solid Eastmans, but not such a no brainer... Glad to have got in there when I did...)
Also I rather like the new Gretsch New Yorkers... There's a model that comes with a De-armond type pickup, anyone tried that?
BTW the Krivo pickups are great for acoustic archtops IMO, better than they are for Selmer type guitars .... You could get one that fits the Epiphone, but for $200+, I suppose it's a bit silly... (I use one on my Loar that I bought for 600USD tho, and I friggin love it!)Last edited by christianm77; 08-04-2017 at 08:39 AM.
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Yeah, I tried one of those on two seperate occasions. Originally Posted by christianm77
Apart from the wide fingerboard (which I didn't like) they were just ho hum.
I've tried 5 New Yorkers, 3 acoustic and 2 with pickups. The acoustic ones had low frets that seem to me a manufacturing defect. One fret was so low the finger board either side bevelled inwards towards the fret.
Comparing the new Yorker to a 5th avenue the 5th avenue is light years ahead.
The Epiphone Centuary is on par with the 5th avenue and is a class act.
I was disappointed with the Gretsch. I was hoping for more from it.
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Yeah my impression with the Godin's is that they are the best made, although my attention to detail when evaluating a guitar isn't that great. I felt the Century was quite 'ho hum' but I accept your greater knowledge on the matter. The guitar felt pretty good. Originally Posted by jazzbow
They don't sound super loud, but they are tidy guitars and unless you plan on playing purely acoustic in bands (unlikely probably) that may not matter... I have a feeling that these guitars might be more practical as an amplified instruments than a loud archtop anyway - probably mic's pretty well...
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Just another quick observation. I have been using this guitar more acoustically - I'm not so interested in the amplified sound, as I find my laminate archtops already give me enough of a headache with feedback, without adding more resonance into the equation. I'm still fairly new in the game of acoustic archtops so forgive me if this observation is already a well known fact! I notice when playing acoustically just how much better the Zenith sounds if the back of the guitar is allowed free movement, rather than being held against my stomach/chest. I can't quite get into the Freddie Green style of holding a guitar (having learned to pay in a much more upright position), but if the back is allowed to freely resonate the bass is so much fuller and the sound so much more pleasing. In contrast, none of my flat top guitars seem to need this breathing space in the same way, maybe because of all the bracing inside. I remember reading somewhere about the 'bellows' effect of a cello back board, literally pumping air out of the f-holes to enhance the bass notes, I guess something along the same lines is happening here?
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I finally got to try one of these. It was the Zenith, f-hole, natural. It was a great looking guitar. The finish is really unique. I have owned and enjoyed many Epiphones. This one, however, I will be passing on. It didn't have any soul. the sound was just very basic. It played nicely. The action and intonation was alright. But, just not inspiring tone at all. And, I'm not that picky or sophisticated, Believe me. I didn't even bother to try it plugged in. It's a shame, too. I believe that Epiphone, as a brand, should be the industry leader in these mid-range price point archtops. It could be a contender with just a little tweaking.
I own a Loar LH300. And, it is way nicer and much better acoustic tone. I have played the LH600, and, it is quite a bit nicer than that. And, at roughly the same price category, blows the Epiphone away.
Just my opinion, of course.
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I have noticed the same effect.
Btw Wes sat with the guitar in a similar way even though he was playing amplified - anyone know why?
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It also affects the amplified sound. The top doesn't vibrate the same when the back is muffled. Part of the sound of an archtop is from the pickup vibrating with the top, which slightly changes the location of the strings in relation to the pickup. It's very subtle, but real. You should be able to hear the difference between holding the guitar tightly with the back muffled, and holding it so that nothing is touching the back. Again, it's subtle, but I can hear it.
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I got a good deal on the Natural, F Hole version of the Deluxe (including the proper licensed HSC) here in the UK.
So far, I have been really impressed with the playability and sound of this thing. At the end of the day, it is roughly in the same price range as a standard Mexican Fender Strat and is never going to compete with hand-carved, beautifully created models of the golden era (as some seem to have complained about here).
I have yet to take it out on a gig as I am waiting for an incoming acoustic amp to pair it up with and can't decide on strings as yet.
I had been looking at these for a few months and had been drawn to this combination (deluxe/F Hole/Natural). In actual fact, I would have preferred the look of the s/b but didn't really appreciate the opaqueness of this particular s/b so went for the natural in the end.
As I said above, I am not sure which route to go down with strings - I always use flats on my electric archtops, rounds on my thinline/solid bodies and PB on my flat tops. This one is a brain picker though as it comes with PB installed but i'm not sure about them being suited to this guitar. I don't however want to lose the "attack".
I bought it really for home jazz practice and for when the upright player from my trio can't make a gig so the singer and I go out as a duo.
Any advice much appreciated - thanks!
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Having now owned this guitar for a few weeks, I thought I'd give an update on how things are progressing during my lunchtime today:
Initially, the action on this was really quite high - so much so in fact that I thought there may be a problem with the neck or at the very least, the bridge would need shaving down.
Anyhow, I took it to my local tech who promptly gave it a decent setup (as he always does) to my usual specs. It came back a few days later with the action significantly lower - Almost possibly too low for a guitar like this one might think.
Firstly, I gave him a set of PB 12s to work with but that I think was a mistake as they just seemed too "brash" for this guitar. A few days later however, I quickly them for set of Roto Top Tapes (12s again) and think I am closer to where I want to be now though these could be a little "dull" if I am pushed to describe the tone. I think the way to go *may be something like D'Addario Chromes due to their slightly brighter take on the whole Flatwound thing so may pick up a set next weekend.
It's been out on one duo gig and a couple of rehearsals and held up really well. In fact, it did exactly what it was meant to by providing a more mellow acoustic (archtop) tone which really seemed to work with just a female voice.
I'm still really glad I bought this and am playing it most days as it is loads of fun to play and (I think) has a really nice tone that has definitely opened up with a bit more use.
As I said earlier, these are the same price range as MIM Fenders so we cannot expect something that competes with a high-end instrument from the 1940s but for the money, they're loads of fun!
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Right, I think this needs to be repeated because people thing Archtop = Wes Montgmoery, but acoustic archtops are designed to be brash and cutting, not mellow. If you want a mellow acoustic guitar, buy a nylon string.
Think Eddie Lang.
Yes PB's are too bright for this type of guitar, but flatwounds are, I think, a pretty strange choice for an acoustic guitar, they will cut down the volume of the instrument in half... Which is kind of the point of having one to start off with.
Personally, I would recommend:
1) Martin Retro strings (Monel steel)
2) 80/20 bronzes
3) Thomastik-Infeld Plectrums (which have a flatwound G which tends to die if you are a bit of a basher like me.)Last edited by christianm77; 09-18-2017 at 09:36 AM.
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D'Addario nickel bronze acoustic strings are nice on acoustic archtops, too.
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This comes up all the time. Folks looking for a guitar (especially a cheap one) that is a great acoustic *and* a great electric. Even if such a guitar existed, you still have to put strings on it, and the best acoustic strings are not the best electric strings, and vice versa. So if you are looking for a great acoustic and a great electric, buy two guitars.
To be clear, according to Epiphone, all three of the model ranges, Olympic, Zenith, and De Luxe are solid spruce tops.
To be clear, solid spruce <> carved spruce. Loar and Eastman are the only inexpensive true acoustics.
All that being said, if I could only afford one guitar, and my budget was $500-1000, the Century would be a good choice. I played one in a shop, and found it very playable. I thought the acoustic sound was loud enough to practice or play informally with a friend (higher pitches are more audible, so you will be heard with most guitars of this type), and have heard good things about the pickup.
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Found this video yesterday - only wish it was longer. Liking that Godin more and more.
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The Godins punch way above their weight acoustically. Was just playing mine last night...I have .013 gauge Monels on there now, still pretty loud with very low action--I imagine if I jacked it up a bit... Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
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Or a VV floating CC would be interesting .... Originally Posted by Little Jay
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Apologies to the OP for bringing up the Godin in this thread, but I was so let down when I heard how far the Epis fell short of what they could have been...why, oh why, do these people keep dropping the ball like that?
@mr. beaumont - thanks for chiming in Jeff, and I found two of your videos with the Godin playing acoustically as well. Aside from your as always lovely playing, the guitar sounds quite damn good!
@pingu - that sure occurred to me as well, or one of the DeArmond reissues. First thing an old friend said when I excitedly pointed him at the Epi site was "why on earth would you want a guitar with a piezo?" Well, despite the infatuation-inducing good looks I wouldn't, and as I said somewhere else that battery box crap protruding out the side offends me. Maybe a floater could be wired to the existing thumbwheels, and from there to an endpin jack....lotta futzing around it would seem. But interestingly I saw one on the 'bay today for $650 US, plastic still on pickguard, with a vintage Epi case. Was tempted to write and ask why he was getting rid of it, but it seems to be gone now. Oh, whaddaya know, there's one at $690 too, and getting them new for around $800 seems pretty easy.
Or, I could go with a Loar LH-300 or LH-600 and a floater. Quite a good chunk more change than the Fifth Avenue, but one that appeals on pretty much every level. BTW, for those of you concerned about getting a crap Loar, why not buy from Steve Zook? Guy seems very knowledgeable and trustworthy...though I've never done it and would be very interested in hearing any stories to the contrary.
So less money = laminate Godin Fifth Avenue Kingpin, more money = hand-carved The Loar with floater. Oy, time to go walk the dog and let the freezing air clear my head! But a decision has gotta be made soon.
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Originally Posted by neatomic
I've been hoping to try out one of the Epi Masterbilt Century guitars, but I've never seen one in the flesh. I did run across the new Epi Century thinline over the weekend, though. I wasn't impressed. I never bothered to plug it in. Considering that it's priced at $599 and GC just sold a boatload of D'A Excel series EXL-1 at the same price, the decision to buy the EXL-1 was a no-brainer. The Epi Century isn't even in the same league as the D'A. I know that this comparison is inherently unfair, given the huge difference in MSRP between those two guitars, but my comparison is based on the fact that last week you could buy either guitar for the same price during the GC sale. I'm still waiting for the chance to play one of the Epi Masterbilt guitars. I'm thinking that with an add-on pup they might be interesting.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Don`t forget Höfner, they have good models in this category, and in high end too.
Jazz-modeller - Thomann Sverige
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From acousticguitarforum.com, an intriguing post (emphasis mine):
"These guitars haven't exactly been setting the marketplace on fire for a variety of reasons, not the least of which being their 'neither-fish-not-fowl' nature: they're not historically accurate on several levels, their tone is not traditional enough for the archtop cognoscenti and too off-track for most of the flattop crowd, acoustic volume/projection leave much to be desired, electronics are questionable for this type of instrument, the quasi-1930's generic neck profile is daunting for many players - and as an archtop player since 1962, after playing the entire lineup I'll have to agree with all of these assessments.
FWIW one dealer told me off-the-record this hasn't gone unnoticed at Epiphone and, given the competition from Eastman/Loar/D'Angelico (and to a lesser extent Gretsch/Guild/Godin), the current series may either be pulled in favor of a more historically-accurate model lineup, along the lines of the 1990's Japanese-made Imperial Series (think carved tops/gloss finish/authentic neck profiles and trim packages), or discontinued outright..."
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Well then...lets hope it's the former possibility and not just the latter. Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
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