Perfect Jazz guitar?

[barneykessel]

Hi Jazz guitar Fans. I'm italian, In the jazz guitar world there is for me a guitarist that represented maybe the essence of jazz guitar, He is Barney Kessel.
I wl be short, I have a maybe simple question for you , to emulate the sound of barney, i have the possibility to choose between 2 guitars: Gibson L5 wes montgomery and Gibson es 175, which is the better?
I know barney used a Gibson es-350 with ebony bridge, and charlie christian's pick up, but my choose is only between 2, I think fantastic guitars....Your opinions about that???
Bye

[randyc]

My friend, you are in an enviable position, you know exactly what you want and you have two fine choices! The ES-175 will sound more like Barney (although I personally prefer the L-5). You'll be a happy man with either

[brad4d8]

Originally Posted by randyc

I had reservations about the cast aluminum bridge when I first obtained the guitar - even bought an ebony bridge to replace it, but I haven't done so fifteen years later, even though it would take only two minutes.

Interesting. I think that the metal bridge is better with the Bigsby. I have a gold Guildsby that I may put on my X-170, and if I do, I'll probably look for a metal bridge, maybe even go for a roller bridge.

Brad

[randyc]

You know, Brad, I NEVER thought of that and of course you're correct !

[drmartinrosewood]

I have a quick question.. pls. I have played the acoustic for 25 yrs.. I am ready to go to eletric. I play alot of fingerstyle so I feel like since I have played the acoustic that I should go to a hollow body jazz guitar. What is the difference between a hollow body guitar and a jazz hollow body guitar? Is it the width of the neck?? Who is a better name? Godin or Hagstrom.

[Bluesguy]

The neck won't be much different. The sound, the feel of the body in your arms are quite different.

[drmartinrosewood]

Thank you for the reply.. For a man that has played an acoustic fingerstyle for 20 yrs. Whar one would you say would be better?

[Bluesguy]

Acoustic fingerstyle is a huge term. Acoustic fingerstyle like Duck Baker, or Segovia, or Pat Donahue, or Jerry Reed? I play a nylon string flamenco for fingerstyle jazz, blues on a Yamaha acoustic, and switch to a customized Fender Strat for ensemble jazz. Each is quite different. The trick is to get your hands on some electrics and see what feels good for you. What clicks for me might be wrong for you. And if I could afford one right now I would happily add an archtop to the mix.

[Marcis]

discutable........but Sadowsky, benedetto, Peerless is one of a kind

[gtr_5155]

A Stromberg Montreux model is quickly becoming a strong contender in the $1200 range of jazzers.No need to upgrade as with most in this price range.It comes with Kent Armstrong pickups,Kluson tuners,Switchcraft and Alpha electronis,and is set up at the time of purchase with action and strings of your choosing.Not everyone can afford a Benedetto.

[nic]

IMHO what people think of as a jazz guitar is any hollow body archtop. Many companies have good versions of it. However, you can play jazz on any guitar. I play mostly on a Telecaster which is just about the opposite of an archtop.

Just because you've been playing fingerstyle acoustic doesn't necessarily mean you need a jazz guitar. There are so many choices and so many hybrid acoustic-electric options that you could look at. Find some really good guitar stores and spend time playing everything.

[Peterplaysmusic]

Hello fellow forum members

Still sorta new to the site and forum... compelled to add my two cents. First the article was great and forum contributor comments very illuninating. First the article, some inconsistencies ... Statement made on the Ibanez PM120 " Pricey for a "foreign made guitar ... more of a collector than an Ibanez Artist or artcore series ..The PM120 IS the artist series , Pat Metheny guitar. Pricey for a foreign made guitar ...i suspect a hint of made in USA bias and characterizing $ 2500.00 as pricey given the realtive value and quailty of the gibbys listed from $ 3300- $40,000 except for the 137 is a tad incongruous. As is the statement " close to a Gibson without spending $ 1000.00 Plus ...??? really more like $ 3000.00 to $8000.00. last, on nits, "L5CES could be a bit pricey at $ 8000.00 - $ 9000.00 for some first time archtop buyers ... Dubious, $ 8-9K is probably out of budget reach for the majority of folks ..average income in USA is about 40K.

My point, while the article was informative and and well reasoned I suspect a bit of made in USA preferential bias. True, many buyers are brand bound and benefit by holding or perhaps increasing in market valuation but a strong case can be made that Gibby quality is too often erratic for the prices and, for example, a Gibby Byrdland at say $ 7000.00 is not 3X the value, construction, sound, and playability of an Epiphone Elitist Byrdland at about $ 2000.00.

I have owned many old Gibby and Guild archtops and after much deliberation opted for the Ibanez Scofied which at $ 2400.00 is IMO an excellent pro instrument at even twice the price. Ebony board, compound radius and after a good Luthier / tech set up it plays and sounds great ...maybe not capturing the sound of a big box arch top but very acceptable for the jazz genre and versatile for many other styles too. Loved the comments on tele's ...I have several USA Fender strats and my 1991 Strat Ultra with Ebony board and Lace PUPs comes pretty close to a decent jazz sound on the neck PUP ...with the right amp ( love my Cube 60 ) or Fender all tube Twin . Forum comments on the following would be most welcome:
1. your assessment of the Ibanez Scofield JSM100?
2. Your opinion on the Epi Elistist Byrdland ?
3. Any other specific telecaster thin line F hole models that are decent for jazz but more premium models than the one pictured?

I do confess to being a bit of a hypocrite .... and I am eying the gibby 359 and 356 models due to smaller bodies and more versatility that a large archtop more narrowly purposed for optimum jazz tone.

Last, IMO part of tone equation is in the fingers, lines, and chord voicings. I bet Robert Conti, Pat Martino, or Jimmy Bruno could get a better jazz sound out of my Strat Ultra than Steve Vai could on an L-5.

Hey, if you got through this thanks for hanging in

Peter
( sorry, not spell checked )

[woyvel]

Regarding the original article, I still can't get over the $1700 Gibson being "great guitar for a student or intermediate level player". For $1700 I can get something that professionals use day in and day out. In fact, I might find one AND a backup.

Also, If the Joe Pass is the closest to Gibson under $1000, where do the Broadway and Artcore Custom fit in?

[randyc]

"Quality", like "beauty" may be in the eye of the beholder. Additionally the two are frequently only skin deep. I see that many recent comments are from new members, howdy. We have enjoyed many, in-depth discussions on this topic, now in the archives. One might review, for example, a survey taken a few months back regarding appreciation of guitars.

Any of us might differ on the concept of "value" but the market is quite firm about the definition. Also, concerning "Epiphones", I posted - some months - ago a discussion of a Korean-made Emp/Rej that I dissected, may want to read that one too. That guitar is frequently held up to be a great buy, performance, quality, price. I didn't find that it lived up to the reputation.

There are knowledgable owners of every guitar/amplifier imaginable on this forum, it's a great place to gather information, exchange opinions, get advice, offer advice and so forth. I've sure enjoyed my relatively brief duration of membership - one of the nicest aspects is the fact that the exchange here is respectful, with one or two exceptions

Cheers

[lpdeluxe]

"Barneykessel" is a provocative user name. I have a CD of a Julie London LP dating back to 1955 or so (JL has had an interesting history, having been married successively to Jack Webb of the TV series "Dragnet" fame and Bobby Troup, who wrote -- among many other songs -- Route 66; they co-starred in a '70s television show called "Emergency" that my wife was addicted to).

That was, as our friend and mentor Col. John R Stingo would say, a labyrinthine digression, not intended to diminish Mr Kessel's and Ms London's contribution to '50s pop music, Cry Me a River. Kessel on spare ES-350 (complete with Charlie Christian pickup), Ray Leatherwood on upright bass. God's own minimalist jazz.

Welcome aboard.

[Peterplaysmusic]

Hello Woyvel and Randyc,

Nice that you guys read my post ...good points & I enjoyed your views. I meant to post my comments in a different thread so I guess I have to study the forum a bit more. On value, i agree that market value is definitive and measurable... many kinds of value ... customer value ( defined by expected benefits ) is where the buyer believes that the value ( benefits ) of what they purchased is greater than the cost to acquire same... apologies for a text book reference ...I think as I get older, 59 and holding, I am feeling a lot of stuff today is overpriced by that measure and there are options that are arguably as good or nearly so for far less $$$. Branding is a powerful driver of consumer behavior and again I confess I still have a strong emotional bond to the Gibson ( brand ) ... I made a reasoned analytical choice to get my Scofield but have some buyers remorse because the Gibby brand still has a grip on me. Randy, thanks for the reminder ...to search for previous threads on the same topic. Last, you are spot on --this forum seems populated by smart, civil, and polite people. Cheers!

Peter

[Bluesguy]

The concept of value is such a subjective bag o worms! Given that even if you restrict the conversation to some arbitrary collection of amps and axes and toss out the consideration of price (which is of course often a deal breaker for regular folks like us) you will find great diversity of opinion.. Of course that keeps the luthiers on their toes and trying out new stuff!

[Reg]

Guitars are very personal and depending what and how you play, how much $ you can waste, how many gigs etc... I have way to many guitars, but last five years I've used a Guild Artist, with a custom Bartolini pickup,( the coils are spread a little further apart, Artist are bright), with vol. and tone controls. I usually play five gigs a week, and most of the time just use a polytone, there light, very clean, can crank with big band gigs etc...sometimes I do have to use a tube amp. I use to switch guitars for r&b, funk and blues gigs, but not any more. I even use the artist for smooth and fusion gigs or sessions. Down side; I've had to have frets redone a couple times, might be my playing. I personally like the newer ones, 90-94, but have friend who use older ones and they seem to work fine.( except for louder gigs), my current model is a 94. Have played and still have; G125, 175, 347 , older tele. 1940 Epiphone( great top) and some others, haven't touched them in a while. My point is there are lots of great guitars, the trick is to match one with your playing style, technique and needs, and you should eventually make that choice yourself. Its pretty hard to sound like Benson or Tal Farlow on a tele, and its hard to sound like Stern or Frank G on Arch tops, for normal people... good luck Reg

[randyc]

Nice guitars, Reg, I'd like to own a Guild like yours.

[Peterplaysmusic]

This is fun, hello Reg and Bluesguy. Enjoyed your comments. I agree that there is a huge subjective dimension to value but I also think there is an objective aspect as well. I think the subjective stuff is sound, pretty vs. ugly, neck shape to hands, etc. But, the objective piece, admit it is hard to nail down a consensus, would be quality of components ( switches, tuners, etc. , stability of wood, construction ( quarter sawn, 14 degree center cut ..stuff I dont fully understand ) ... where objective assessments can be made by "experts" as well as the cumulative and intelligence of non-expert users like us folks on forums like this. Not to say there are no experts on this forum. These "objective" criteria are valid for dependability and functionality over time. For me, once I get past the subjectives the sheer number of choices in the marketplace is mind-boggling .... the access to informed ( some not so informed ) opinions on say Harmony Central and customer reviews on E-tailer websites is great but i would like to see more "expert" / Luthier analysis than what I read in magazines. While the focus here is jazz guitars ..as an example I am thinking about another Les Paul ... and color me slow but I can't begin to decode the differences between a Zillion model variations all made in USA. More choice and bang for the buck is a good thing as most of us can not afford a real D'Angelico ..... what is both frustrating and fascinating to me is the channel conflict, IMO, between the top-of-the line USA made stuff and the same models outsourced to Japan, China, Korea, and Mexico.... a good example might be the Epiphone Elitist line versus the Gibby Custom shop counterpart ..arguably pretty close in "quality" but huge disparity in market price. My belief, that was why Gibson discontinued the Elitist line because of channel conflict. I guess at the end of the day we consumers have to make that subjective choice and get the best bang for the buck we can afford. Cheers!

Peter

PS off topic but I just discovered Robert Conti and bought some of his materials .. good stuff. And, he has done a deal with Peerless to make a thin line archtop that is is selling for about $ 2000.00 ...looks pretty neat, any opinions on that?

[lpdeluxe]

I like looking at the pictures and imagining, but's there no substitute for having a guitar in your arms and feeling its strength. The idea that we can abstractly idealize is what keeps Playboy magazine in business, but, at the end of the day, which woman with whom you want to spend your life and raise a family is not determined by special effects lighting or prosthetic secondary gender characteristic enhancements.

At this point, if I can't play it, I really don't consider it as an option. In this era of the internet, with craigslist and eBay and whatnot, you are limited mostly by your own ability to travel.

I found my blonde 335 on craigslist: I drove 310 miles, one way, to check it out. Had it not been what I hoped for, I would have driven the 310 miles home without it.

Of course, I knew beforehand that I wanted a Gibson ES-335, not " some sort of semi-hollow body electric;" having been entertained over the years by the peculiarities of my '63 Chet Atkins Country Gent, I felt I should not trust appearance (the CACG, as they were once called, was my one-and-only mail-order [as we used to call it, prior to the internet] guitar, and the LAST guitar I bought solely on the basis of looks). Older but wiser, that's me. Several of us here can tell tales of guitars being somewhat less than what they appear to be.

Now that you have narrowed the choices down, in other words, it's time to find living specimens of as many as possible so you can eliminate those with annoying features (such as my Gretsch) and those lacking in tone or playability up the neck or any of a thousand possible criteria.

Disclaimer: on the Gretsch, I had a long multiyear honeymoon with it, and it wasn't until I had the time to devote to gigging regularly that I discovered its shortcomings. Sometimes we fall in love, after all.
Happy hunting.

[Ron Vermillion]

On the bottom end of the budget; I just got a used Epiphone Broadway, not the USA Elite one, the imported one. I could not be happier with it. The original owner had replaced the pickups and pots with Lolar, and Gibson pups and brand name pots. Hooray for him, but from day 1 about a week ago when it arrived I have played it every night and just love it. It came set up great, and sounds terrific. I played on a stock EPI Regent (Regency??) at Sam Ash to get the feel of it, and it was just fine too. The Ibanez Artcores are smaller bodies and laminated tops. They are fine guitars but I'm a big guy and I wanted a big archtop.

I got the deal of the century on this guitar, and I'm really glad I got it.

Ron

[Reg]

Thanks RandyC? Reg

[Ron Vermillion]

There is a Washburn on eBay right now. I played one of the Washburns at Sam Ash Music in Atlanta and liked it a lot. They had it priced about like this one in this auction, but I had a much better financial deal pending on Craigslist with a gentleman in Chicago. But, had I been buying something that day, at that price, the Washburn would have been at the top of the list.

Washburn J7 Jazz Box hollow body electric guitar bigsby - eBay (item 390151014143 end time Mar-02-10 21:00:02 PST)

I have no affiliation with the auction or the guitar, just have a "Jazz Guitar" saved search on eBay that turned this up.

Ron

[va3ux]

Originally Posted by woyvel

Regarding the original article, I still can't get over the $1700 Gibson being "great guitar for a student or intermediate level player". For $1700 I can get something that professionals use day in and day out. In fact, I might find one AND a backup.

Also, If the Joe Pass is the closest to Gibson under $1000, where do the Broadway and Artcore Custom fit in?

I agree with you : $1700 for a 'student or intermediate' guitar is absurd. Students today could start out with better quality guitars than I ever had available by buying used Artcores or Washburns or Epis from eBay in the $300 - $600 range.

Regarding the original topic of this thread, I don't think there's answer for "perfect jazz guitar". Being an archtop fan, I can tell you I was surprised to learn that Ed Bickert used a Tele after I discovered his music just 3 or 4 years ago. That prompted me to make a pilot Tele purchase with a Yamaha MS311 (Yamaha Tele - solid Alder body with neck HB, contoured body, Tennessee orange). I've experimented with Duncan 59 and Gibson 57 Classics in the neck position. Surprise : the big full warm jazz tone is all there in a guitar I never would have considered before. Other pluses : it's way more comfortable to hold or sit with than my archtops; I don't get a sore back from it like I did from leaning over archtops. I'm on the small side which is why that seems to be an issue for me where it wouldn't be for others.

One guitar I haven't seen mentioned here is the Epiphone Zephyr Regent which is like an Epiphone version of the ES-165. I have one, it's made by Peerless and it's an excellent guitar. Generally available used in the $350 - $450 range. Epiphone just dropped the guitar from their line-up last year which is really unfortunate. This guitar won the GP Editors Pick award a few years ago.

Another sleeper is the Samick HJ-650 (out of production) which is an L-5 copy. 17" lower bout, big full depth body, all maple laminate, really nice sounding and playing guitar; pretty decent acoustic archtop tone too. I have one and it's excellent but it's also on the 'big' side for me so I don't play it much.

I realize that none of these guitars are high end. But having owned a couple of ES-175s 25 years ago (and Les Pauls and SGs and an ES-330) I can tell you that owning these guitars leaves me not wanting to go out and spend much bigger $ on the traditional Gibsons. Actually, I stumbled across the Samick HJ-650 a few years ago while shopping for a used ES-175, and the Samick ended that GAS attack, at 1/8th of the price. I'm not saying that they're the same or equivalent or one is better than the other. But as a previous ES175 owner, I was quite satisfied with the Samick.

[lpdeluxe]

I never have taken Teles very seriously. I have known guys with them who thought that the Telecaster was invented to puncture ears with. Then, too, there's the "teenager with access to a bandsaw" aesthetic about them, and the general primitiveness overall; finished off with a (to me) too-long scale.

I found a Fender Deluxe Reverb on craigslist last week (I don't care for Fender guitars, but I love Fender amps and basses -- I currently have four of each). I drove over to Shreveport LA to see it, and the owner -- at my request -- demoed the amp with his '72 Tele Custom reissue (small neck humbucker, single-coil bridge pickup). He's a jazz guy, and the sound coming out of that little amp was sweet in the extreme. I didn't even plug my Gibson in, and I only haggled momentarily over the price.

Naturally, I prefer my 335, but that Telecaster opened my ears.

Now, as to the Samick HJ-650, I was given one last spring by a friend who couldn't find a use for it, and I confess I'm in the same situation. It looks nice enough, but there's not much else there other than '50s Gibson appearance. It's too big, it feeds back too readily, it doesn't have any character or personality through an amp, and at first opportunity I'll donate it to a local fund raiser so someone can get some good out of it (the charity, I mean, not the eventual owner). It has done nothing to make me re-evaluate my taste for the real Gibson-label deal.

[Wildcat]

Gentlemen,

On the topic of a jazz type guitar for a beginner to intermediate player. Becoming a player at the age of 47 years of age has been an interesting experience with instructors, and equipment.

On the equipment side, excitement on wanting to learn and having lost all common sense lead me first to a Heritage H-575 (Gibson 175)$2000 then traded it in for a Heritage H-555 (Gibson 335) $2200 model. I found the H-575 too larger and uncomfortable. The H-555 was much better with the thinner rim, but it was almost too nice to chance damaging it. H-555 has been sitting in my closet for since 2007.

First I'm a smaller guy, 5'9" ish with short arms, 33-34, and smaller hands so I have been playing on a 98 Strat with a thinner neck, modern C and obvious a small body for comfort. The last thing you want is to be uncomfortable with a guitar and trying to learn all at the same time. But the jazz tone is just not happening.BTW I looked at a used Joe Pass import model at a local store and was like dancing with a refrigerator too me.

Then I came across a new Ibanez AG95D wow!! This guitar has a very slim neck which I absolutely love. The body has a 15inch bout and a 2.75 inch rim. Two standard pickups and with a nice set of flat wound 11's and a trashed 1964 Bandmaster head that I restored I am a very happy man. I bought this guitar with new case last summer for about $550.

So that's my story, more money than common sense, and just being plain stupid until I found my way. I never thought that the more expensive guitar would make me a better player, but I thought I would grow into it.

I found like many things find what works for you will help to stimulate your learning desire as it has for me.

[Wildcat]

My recommendation for the beginner novice Jazz guitar. Very comfortable to play and learn on.

[va3ux]

Originally Posted by Wildcat

My recommendation for the beginner novice Jazz guitar. Very comfortable to play and learn on.

I'll go along with that one too. The Ibanez Artcores are excellent bang for the buck.

Jeez, I'm even a bit smaller than you Wildcat. No wonder I find guitars like the HJ650 too bulky.

[Ron Vermillion]

The wisdom of the ages. GAS strikes again.

Ron