Amp Modelers

[Brad]

I have posed this question in some other threads, but will do so now as its own.

I am interested in getting an amp modeler that would be used straight through the PA system, not using another amp. I play with a very traditional, clean tone (Farlow, Montgomery, Pass) never any real effects, not even much reverb. When I play through the PA alone, I just cannot get a sound like my Polytone Mini-Brute produces.

Anyone got any ideas? Just looking for clean and don't want to run through an amp.

Thanks!

[fep]

I really like my modeler straight thru PA speakers. Here is an article where someone did some comparisons between the popular modelers:

Amp Modelers and MFX Boxes

[bfol]

I have a POD (purchased 5 years ago) from Line6- it has everything - It also acts as an interface to use with pc.-
it is def not geared toward jazz but there is a roland jc120 model on it, fender twin, and couple of others that are pretty good clean - It is really geared for those pesky metalheads a TON of heavy sounding amps/effects....
I have found some pretty good usable clean tones

As for going straight to PA i know you can do that with a POD but have never tried, just through to an amp sometimes

i dont know if i would recommend the pod in that it was $300 5 years ago so i doubt the price has gone down
good luck

[Russ Kapp]

Depending on how many extra wistles and bells you plan on using or can tolerate having and not needing particularly, you might check out the latest version ( III ) of the Adrenalinn effects unit. It is designed and produced by the guy that invented the drum machine. So it is 1/3 drum machine ( I RARELY ) use these gadgets, 1/3 beat-synched filter FX and 1/3 amp models. He has really got the clean amps amazingly down in this third generation unit....just another possibilty not mentioned yet....

[Russ Kapp]

By the way the Roger Linn designed Adrenalinn III mentioned above has a setting to select either an amp or direct to a P.A. I use it in my Yamaha StagePAS 500 when going live....It's pretty convincing...

[bluemood]

One of the if not the best in modelers right now...Best tone and real amp feel ...Products - Fractal Audio Systems / Atomic Amplifiers

[bluemood]

I think that if you don't use all the effects and stuff your better off getting your self a nice tube or solidstate preamp that you can go DI with speaker emulation...Teck 21 blonde , mesa boogie V Twin comes to mind... I have a Line XT Live and can never get it to sound right I'm not someone who likes to spend alot of time trying to get a tone that my not be there it just plain hard with volume jumps in diffrent banks the clean tone IMO sucks...I keep in the closet all the time .

[bkdavidson]

I've got a Line 6 POD 2.0 that I picked up on ebay for around $100. I use it at church direct to the PA and have been thrilled with it. It has more bells and whistles than you're probably looking for, but the 2.0 POD's can be found pretty cheap since there's two versions that have come out since. I'm really not a fan of the JC-120 (hopefully that statement won't get me kicked off of here) but it's on there. There's also a '52 tweed Deluxe model, and '65 Deluxe and Twin Reverb models which get good cleans. The thing I like most about the POD is that it responds to dynamics a lot better than other modelers I've experienced and the models sound like the amps they say, not just charicatures.

[Fidelcaster]

Originally Posted by bluemood

Teck 21 blonde

I'll second that, I get some sweet clean Fender tones (no reverb, though) out of it. I'll also add a mention for the new Rock Bug by Carl Martin, which I haven't tried, but should be very high quality and has some nice features.

[Brad]

My sincere thanks to all of you for the recommendations! I will sift through all of your information this weekend. Thank you very much! (I just love JGF for stuff like this.) Again, thanks!

[Hurricane Ramon]

I love my Digitech GNX4
Sounds terrific through a P . A . or through an amp tube or solid state .

They are selling for $400.00 new right now . I thought it was a steel at $500.00 when I got mine 4 years ago .

Besides the DI you get a really sweet stand alone 8 track digital recorder that does one or two tracks or 4 via a USB .

Decent Larry Carlton type jazz sounds can be made if you are a :
" tweaker " <======<<<- I mean a tech type tweaker and not a speedfreak

The Ampeg sounding amps and complimenting cabs are saaaaweeeeet .

Tube amp emulation is really good too .

Sincerely :

Hurricane Ramon

[Brad]

HR,

Thanks for the Digitech tip. I am checking them out now. I appreciate it!

bpm

[TieDyedDevil]

I think I may have replied on another thread, so I'll summarize:

1) Most modelers in fact work *best* straight into a PA or other full-range sound reproduction system. This is certainly true of the ones I've tried: Boss GT-8, Vox Tonelab, Line 6 (various), Digitech RP-350, Tech 21 Character Series Blonde, and Fractal Axe-FX.

2) You *can* get away with plugging a guitar straight into a DI, but it has to be an *active* DI. A passive DI loads down the pickups and changes the sound in an unpleasant manner. Unless you have golden ears, one active DI is pretty much as good as another. I've used Behringer and Countryman and don't (at least on stage) hear any difference.

3) Every modeler brand has it own strengths and weaknesses that derive from the design philosophy and cost constraints imposed by the manufacturer. Some modelers are great for plug-and-play use, but restrict you to a collection of tones that may or may not meet your needs. Other modelers give you precise control over certain aspects of the sound, but require a significant commitment in studying the manual and learning to program the unit.

4) Ignore what you read in the glossy literature and manufacturer's reviews. Trust only your own ears. The names given to the amps are, at best, suggestive. Pick any comparable amp setting on five different modelers and you'll hear five five different amps. Sometimes they won't even be noticeably from the same *family* of amp. (The Vox Tonelab, for example, just will *not* do a convincing Fender emulation, IMO.)

5) A corollary to the above is that the promise of "infinite" adjustment is a crock, no matter how many parameters you get to tweak. For any given modeler, there will always be *some* sounds that *no* combination of control settings will give you. If you remember only one thing from this admittedly long diatribe, this is the important point: A modeler is just like any other amplifier. If you can't make it sound the way you want *before* you buy it, no amount of adjustment is guaranteed to make it sound the way you want after you take it home.

Heh... and *that* was a *summary*...

[peterk1]

Originally Posted by Brad

When I play through the PA alone, I just cannot get a sound like my Polytone Mini-Brute produces.

I've only skimmed the thread and don't know if it's been brought up, but the big problem here is is EQ'ing. Your ear is expecting the sound of an amp which is coloring the sound from the guitar, and the sound right out of the guitar isn't close enough to that. So you can use some EQing to try and simulate what the amp/speakers/mic would be doing.

Tons of records have been done with the guitar going straight into the board, so it definitely is possible to get a great sound without and amp and a modeller even. Martin Taylor always goes straight into the board these days when he plays solo concerts and he sounds amazing.

If you've got access to a good EQ, you can try these settings:

drop 100
drop 300
drop 700-800
boost 5k

I got them off a recording engineering website somewhere on the web and have used them many times when recording.

Someone else mentioned using a DI box, to prevent the board from degrading the sound of the guitar. Behringer's cost about 30$ and they work well (but I find that when I split from the Behringer and go to my amp as well as the board, the amp gets a severely degraded signal...that probably wouldn't happen with a more expensive DI).

Add a touch of reverb and I think you may be happy with the sound.

Of course, the cost of a reverb and a DI box if you don't have them already may well cost more than some of the modellers out there, so you may be better going that route anyways,

[Hurricane Ramon]

Excerpt :

Originally Posted by TieDyedDevil

5) A corollary to the above is that the promise of "infinite" adjustment is a crock, no matter how many parameters you get to tweak. For any given modeler, there will always be *some* sounds that *no* combination of control settings will give you. If you remember only one thing from this admittedly long diatribe, this is the important point: A modeler is just like any other amplifier. If you can't make it sound the way you want *before* you buy it, no amount of adjustment is guaranteed to make it sound the way you want after you take it home.

Heh... and *that* was a *summary*...

================================================== =====

Hey Tie Died Devil :

Too true many rely on gear and gadgets way too much these days . If you don't put in the time to actually " know " what it is your after you will be even more confused with some of these modelers after you try to figure them out .

Today's needs for what is out there as the media source and how the end user comes into the equation and buys/steals ( hey it's all good believe me ) and then listens to it with friends or alone is a big factor too .

Bottom line are the speakers of a great or cheap :

P . C . sound system or home theater or a car system and or super boom box will never sound like a tube Polytone or a vintage Ampeg , Gibson , Gretsch , Fender or what ever you name . It's not important either .The songs on MP3 or Wav. will sound great no matter what if the recording was done right and the talent was there simply stated .

So . . .

If you know what your after in a given sound you want to emulate and find a decent amp/cab modeler that is " close " enough . . . GET IT ! heh heh

I have heard great super recordings on Bosses Micro BR it's only $200.00 , Tascam , Zoom and the likes are as good for the end result if done right too . It's just a matter of finding something that works reasonably well and suits your personal requirements .

That's my take on this issue .

Go ya one more .

I have wanted to get a Fender Bassman for the classic tube " Blues Harp " crunching explosion sound that { Paul Butterfield } and other famous Blues artists that blew a decent harp got in the 50's & 60's . On my Digitech GNX4 I can get a very close as can be got sound of a Fender Bassman , I mean gritty and dirty as can be , but still not the real deal but close enough !

I know the digital distorted " break up " is distinctly different but at the same time it actually passes on recordings for the electric guitar/Blues harp and the acoustic modeler I can do with out but still workable .

What is heard by the general public is no where as critical as a musician . I know of hit makers from early Rock-N-Roll who used a 3M Wollesak reel to reel recorder to record a single electric guitar via it's amp through one of these :



And from this hit recordings were made all during the 50s by many legends of Rock , Rock-A-Billy and Blues like my personal friend and fellow musician hit song writer Chan Romero , his " Hippy Hippy Shake " started like this as well as other hits he had . They could take a single electric rhythm guitar recording to a promoter and if they thought it was " hot "you went into a studio with session men like electric guitarist Barny Kessle and Ray Rrown on bass and have Hal Blaine for traps , this recording method and musician line up actually was used by Delfi Records for Chan Romero's Hippy Hippy Shake . The demo was off a 3M Wollensak just like the pic . On Delfi HHS hit Chan did a new electric guitar track and did not use the Wollensak 3M R to R demo track . There were others who actually used the 3M R to R in actual hit recordings heh heh cheap cheap cheap cheap heh heh .

The first rule is :

#1 : There are no rules
#2 : Refer to #1

Sincerely :

Hurricane Ramon

[Brad]

Great information for this amp novice, guys. I appreciate it.

Thank you very much! I will keep you posted on what I get and how it sounds.

bpm

[fast1]

yea keep us posted, how you get what you are looking for!

[TieDyedDevil]

Originally Posted by Hurricane Ramon

Too true many rely on gear and gadgets way too much these days . If you don't put in the time to actually " know " what it is your after you will be even more confused with some of these modelers after you try to figure them out

Another common mistake is trying to use too many of a modeler's features. This goes hand-in-hand with not knowing what you want to hear. For the sake of your audience, stick with a consistent sound or at least a consistent family of sounds. Create interest through *what you play*, not how you process the signal.

If you start by knowing the sound you want to use, it's relatively easy (although some units are easier than other for reasons I described in my last post) to set up *one* patch to get that sound. The fact that there are 37 bazillion other *possible* sounds is irrelevant; those are for other players (or for you, someday when your tonal preferences change).

The songs [...] will sound great no matter what if the recording was done right and the talent was there

Absolutely! I'd much rather listen to a poor recording of an inspired performance than a technically pristine recording of an indifferent performance. Our auditory system is very good at filling in the gaps in sound reproduction.

What is heard by the general public is no where as critical as a musician

Indeed, there are quite a few musicians who would lump themselves in with the general public. So long as the instrument is good enough to not inhibit the player, the expression of the musical performance will survive a wide range of technical and acoustic indignities.

In my mind, the hierarchy of concerns goes something like this:

* the musical composition
* the player's technique
* the player's interpretation of the composition
* the relevance of the composition and the performance to the audience
* the acoustics of the performance space
...
* the quality of the instrument
...
* the quality of the signal chain and sound reproduction/reinforcement

In my experience, guitarists who put the last concern high up on the list tend to suffer from not giving sufficient attention to the concerns at the top of the list.

They could take a single electric rhythm guitar recording to a promoter and if they thought it was " hot "you went into a studio with session men like electric guitarist Barny Kessle and Ray Rrown on bass and have Hal Blaine for traps

Yes. Those were the days when a tune was recorded, mixed and mastered in a matter of hours. The performance was in the hands of the musicians; the technicians only needed to document the performance.

Nowadays the situation is reversed, at least in pop music. Artists are valued more for their appearance and marketability than they are for their musical vision. Creation of a song is time-consuming, expensive, mechanical and uninspired; the talent is of secondary or tertiary importance.

That's one of the reasons I've become attracted to jazz: it's one of the few musical forms that still retains any semblance of spontaneity and standards of excellence.

[Hurricane Ramon]

Excerpt :

Originally Posted by TieDyedDevil

Absolutely! I'd much rather listen to a poor recording of an inspired performance than a technically pristine recording of an indifferent performance. Our auditory system is very good at filling in the gaps in sound reproduction.

================================================== =====

Tie :

I did a show with Maria Muldaur ( Midnight At The Oasis ) she was throwing down a Blues/Jazz venue and I was blowin harp on stuff like :

Percy Mayfield's " Send Me Someone To Love & A Better World "

Stix Hooper / Will Jennings - Never Make A Move Too Soon -

and a whole lotta 30s Blues/Jazz standards . Intimate , her voice and a piano and me on diatonic harp making it go chromatic ( yep I can do ) crazy when I needed it to .

The sound dude let me hook a ( super nice 3 head ) cassette recorder . Results were great as far as the show and performance on the master tape .

But

The copy hissed as would be expected . I did not intend to try and market them only use them as free promo/demo . Many enjoyed what was captured and the unique nature of this one of a kind one shot deal .

But

Audiophile types gripe and hemmed and hawed and I was really disappointed at first because these where the types I first released the material too .

It was later when fellow musicians heard it and liked it as well as others in the end ( save those persnickety types ) , average hard working guys and gals , dug it !

Sincerely :

HR