Gibson 335 vs. Heritage 535 semi-hollow

[peacemover]

I am saving up for a nice semi-hollow electric guitar that has some versatility so that I can get a pure, clean tone sound for straight ahead jazz, as well as some more meaty blues, funk, rock and fusion tones.

The two that I am looking at now are:



Gibson ES 335

and



Heritage 535

for guitars.


For amp, I am looking at Fenders- possibly the Fender Hot Rod Deluxe:






Any thoughts/suggestions/reviews etc??

[lpdeluxe]

I don't think you'll go wrong with either of the guitars. I have an ES-335 but I'd be happy with a Heritage.

As to the amp, I tried a Hot Rod Deluxe and felt like it was a little too rock and rolly for me: not much of a clean tone, and the distortion struck me as a bit raw.

But I love Fender amps, and I have three: a Jazzmaster Ultralight, a Blues Jr NOS, and my latest, a Band-Master VM.

The JM has a lot of advantages, including the signature Fender clean sound, very light weight/small footprint, and plenty of power. It's my first choice for my Les Paul Deluxe with mini-humbuckers. It really brings out the personality of that guitar.

The BJ is also small and portable, but with more of the "chimey" sound. It doesn't do much with the LP, but the 335 sounds better through it than the JM. There's not much headroom (15w) but it has a useful sound for more aggressive material.

Which leads me to my latest love, the BM (great abbreviation, eh?). I have it plugged into a 1-15 cabinet, and it's my choice for mellower, rounder, richer sound. Disadvantages revolve around the size, but that really depends upon your cabinet choice. I'd like to try it with the Band-Master 2-12 cab, but that'll have to wait until I recover from buying the head...and I may decide I'm happy with the 15, after all. Certainly, it's a different sound to the others, and I'm a little reluctant to mess with it.

Let's try some pics:
http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p...g?t=1239628560
Les Paul and Jazzmaster Ultralight
http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p...g?t=1239628674
http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p...g?t=1239628477

[peacemover]

Hmm... jazzmaster- haven't looked at that one yet... thanks for the tip.

Also with the guitars- I have played both and really like them. They seem comparable in quality and clearly several steps above the epis, artcores, and other knock-off models as far as tone, versatility and overall playability.

I must say I am strongly leaning toward Heritage because:

-they are about $400 less expensive for an instrument that is comparable in quality and sound
-I hear Gibson, as a company, are strong-arm jerks that refuse to work with smaller dealers and stores and only go for the big, high volume outlets like guitar center and musicians friend.
-I hear that the quality control at Gibson is not what it used to be...

Anyway...

Thanks for the insights... any others??

Originally Posted by lpdeluxe

I don't think you'll go wrong with either of the guitars. I have an ES-335 but I'd be happy with a Heritage.

As to the amp, I tried a Hot Rod Deluxe and felt like it was a little too rock and rolly for me: not much of a clean tone, and the distortion struck me as a bit raw.

But I love Fender amps, and I have three: a Jazzmaster Ultralight, a Blues Jr NOS, and my latest, a Band-Master VM.

The JM has a lot of advantages, including the signature Fender clean sound, very light weight/small footprint, and plenty of power. It's my first choice for my Les Paul Deluxe with mini-humbuckers. It really brings out the personality of that guitar.

The BJ is also small and portable, but with more of the "chimey" sound. It doesn't do much with the LP, but the 335 sounds better through it than the JM. There's not much headroom (15w) but it has a useful sound for more aggressive material.

Which leads me to my latest love, the BM (great abbreviation, eh?). I have it plugged into a 1-15 cabinet, and it's my choice for mellower, rounder, richer sound. Disadvantages revolve around the size, but that really depends upon your cabinet choice. I'd like to try it with the Band-Master 2-12 cab, but that'll have to wait until I recover from buying the head...and I may decide I'm happy with the 15, after all. Certainly, it's a different sound to the others, and I'm a little reluctant to mess with it.

Let's try some pics:
http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p...g?t=1239628560
Les Paul and Jazzmaster Ultralight
http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p...g?t=1239628674
http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p...g?t=1239628477

[lpdeluxe]

I don't have any insights into Gibson, but my collection (such as it is) has evolved into exclusively Gibson electrics. I do know that Elderly Instruments in Lansing, MI, has dropped Gibson, as has my local music store. Judging guitars by the perceived practices of the builders is a slippery position, but you have to do what your values tell you to. Heritage is a much smaller operation, and the principals are getting along in years, which may mean it's the right time to get one.

The reason I play Gibsons is that they have the best, most robust, and practical designs for me, but that's an argument for Heritage also.

The Heritage resale value might be lower as compared to the Gibson, but if you're going to keep it, that doesn't matter so much. I like the finishes of Heritage (especially the burnt amber), and, since they use standard hardware, it would be easy enough to change out pickups and whatnot as needed. If I find a Heritage with a Bigsby, I'll probably buy it (I played a '63 Gretsch Chet Atkins Country Gent as my main guitar for many years, and the Bigsby is what I miss from it).

[peacemover]

Have you ever played a Heritage?

I've tried them both and liked them both about the same. I am wondering if there is any significant difference in the pickups or electronics. Supposedly the makers of Heritage were formerly part of Gibson then split off to start Heritage as a smaller custom luthier when Gibson started getting too big and all machine produced (similar, perhaps to G & L splitting off from Fender guitars).

Heritage costs less, the entry model 535 ($1500-$1600) arguably has a nicer finish for the money and sounds comparable to the ES 335 custom satin finish ($2000) as far as I can tell.

Originally Posted by lpdeluxe

I don't have any insights into Gibson, but my collection (such as it is) has evolved into exclusively Gibson electrics. I do know that Elderly Instruments in Lansing, MI, has dropped Gibson, as has my local music store. Judging guitars by the perceived practices of the builders is a slippery position, but you have to do what your values tell you to. Heritage is a much smaller operation, and the principals are getting along in years, which may mean it's the right time to get one.

The reason I play Gibsons is that they have the best, most robust, and practical designs for me, but that's an argument for Heritage also.

The Heritage resale value might be lower as compared to the Gibson, but if you're going to keep it, that doesn't matter so much. I like the finishes of Heritage (especially the burnt amber), and, since they use standard hardware, it would be easy enough to change out pickups and whatnot as needed. If I find a Heritage with a Bigsby, I'll probably buy it (I played a '63 Gretsch Chet Atkins Country Gent as my main guitar for many years, and the Bigsby is what I miss from it).

[peacemover]

Actually the ES 335 satin finish model (the "entry level" 335 model) priced around $2K is shown here:




The only differences as far as I can tell are:

-satin instead of gloss finish
-simple dot fret markings as opposed to the fancy mother of pearl inlays
-headstock logo is a decal rather than a mother of pearl inlay
-tuners are the standard Gibson plastic tuners as opposed to the steel

That is all as far as I can tell, unless the electronics are different as well. Anyone know?

[NSJ]

I own the Heritage version of the Gibson 336 (got it for cheap, used) and have tried the 535. I also have an Eagle (thinline) Let me tell you, you generally can't go wrong with Heritage--they generally have more craftsmanship, better wood and care in them than current Gibsons. And they are much cheaper. Thus, I would take the Heritage over the new Gibson 100 times out of 100, assuming I can try out the guitars before hand.

Of course, I consider Heritage to be the real Gibson these days, still operating out of Gibson's factory in Kalamazoo, MI.

About the only drawback is you may want to swap out the pups in the Heritage--kind of dull and unresponsive. OH, and also resale value, I suppose. Gibsons may hold their value more, due to the Gibson 'name'.

I've heard that the Hot Rod Deluxe are great amps, but I really haven't tried them out, honestly.

[lpdeluxe]

When Gibson pulled out of Kalamazoo MI in 1984, several of the senior craftsmen and supervisors there arranged to lease a portion of the plant to start up Heritage. Gibson moved everything to Nashville, where they had built a plant in the late '70s, and at that time, Norlin (owners of Gibson) were shedding everything in an effort to stop losing money, the root cause of which was management ineptness. They ended up selling Gibson to its current ownership in '85, but that's another story.

Pickups and bridges are from Schaller, but I understand that other options are available -- and, as noted the pickups are the standard humbucker size, so it would be relatively easy to swap them out for something you like better. I say, "relatively" because you still have to work everything in and out through the treble f-hole. I did that on an Epiphone Sheraton II that I owned before I got the 335, and it takes a little patience.

Heritage uses many of the same construction methods and designs. After all the guys who started it up had spent their working lives making Gibsons, in most cases.

There used to be a Heritage dealer here in my small town, but at the time I was putting kids through college and a new guitar was not on the horizon. I may seek one out....

[peacemover]

Cool! Thanks for the helpful word- I think I am definitely going to go for the Heritage 535! Amp- not totally sure yet, but I am leaning toward the Fender Deluxe and Blues series amps- haven't tried the Jazzmaster.

Is the Jazzmaster good and versatile for blues and rock tones or is it pretty much a straight-ahead jazz amp?

Originally Posted by lpdeluxe

When Gibson pulled out of Kalamazoo MI in 1984, several of the senior craftsmen and supervisors there arranged to lease a portion of the plant to start up Heritage. Gibson moved everything to Nashville, where they had built a plant in the late '70s, and at that time, Norlin (owners of Gibson) were shedding everything in an effort to stop losing money, the root cause of which was management ineptness. They ended up selling Gibson to its current ownership in '85, but that's another story.

Pickups and bridges are from Schaller, but I understand that other options are available -- and, as noted the pickups are the standard humbucker size, so it would be relatively easy to swap them out for something you like better. I say, "relatively" because you still have to work everything in and out through the treble f-hole. I did that on an Epiphone Sheraton II that I owned before I got the 335, and it takes a little patience.

Heritage uses many of the same construction methods and designs. After all the guys who started it up had spent their working lives making Gibsons, in most cases.

There used to be a Heritage dealer here in my small town, but at the time I was putting kids through college and a new guitar was not on the horizon. I may seek one out....

[lpdeluxe]

Originally Posted by peacemover

Is the Jazzmaster good and versatile for blues and rock tones or is it pretty much a straight-ahead jazz amp?

I use mine for everything that comes up...a friend has been plugging his Fishman Aura-equipped Martin flat top into it with excellent results. There's a clean and a drive channel, and you can get a lot out of it. I tend to not use EQ on my guitars, preferring to find an instrument and amp with the sound I like, but the JM works with my rock'n'roll SG as well as the LP. As I've said before (although maybe not here) I'm surprised that people aren't lining up to buy Jazzmasters.

They are a little pricey, but I plan to keep mine for the rest of my playing days. It's cool to find a low-maintenance solid-state amp with so much personality.

If you can find a dealer with one in stock, try it out. I actually ordered mine through the local dealer after reading reviews on Harmony Central, which is a good place to start research.

[Pequod]

Originally Posted by peacemover

I am saving up for a nice semi-hollow electric guitar that has some versatility so that I can get a pure, clean tone sound for straight ahead jazz, as well as some more meaty blues, funk, rock and fusion tones.

The two that I am looking at now are:



Gibson ES 335

and



Heritage 535

for guitars.


For amp, I am looking at Fenders- possibly the Fender Hot Rod Deluxe:






Any thoughts/suggestions/reviews etc??

Gibson ES 335 is the one to get - I have a 2007 lefthand vintage sunburst 335 made at Gibson's historic shop in Memphis and the sound/colour/tone/attack/action is so sweet - it's my mistress

[peacemover]

I have tried out several Fender amps including:



The Blues Junior



Fender '65 Twin Reverb



Fender Hot Rod Deluxe


If I were only looking for one tone that has a decent clean but can be over-driven a little bit, I'd go for the Blues Junior. Only having one channel and just 15 Watts (even though it is a tube amp), is not quite enough umph and versatility for what I am looking for, though. The '65 Twin reverb, I liked for the rock and bluesy-funk styles, but not enough of a pure clean tone for my taste.

So far, the Hot Rod deluxe is the one I am leaning toward...

The jazzmaster I don't know much about- but I am looking at tube amps now, and I don't think the jazzmaster is a tube amp...

Any others??

Originally Posted by lpdeluxe

I use mine for everything that comes up...a friend has been plugging his Fishman Aura-equipped Martin flat top into it with excellent results. There's a clean and a drive channel, and you can get a lot out of it. I tend to not use EQ on my guitars, preferring to find an instrument and amp with the sound I like, but the JM works with my rock'n'roll SG as well as the LP. As I've said before (although maybe not here) I'm surprised that people aren't lining up to buy Jazzmasters.

They are a little pricey, but I plan to keep mine for the rest of my playing days. It's cool to find a low-maintenance solid-state amp with so much personality.

If you can find a dealer with one in stock, try it out. I actually ordered mine through the local dealer after reading reviews on Harmony Central, which is a good place to start research.

[peacemover]

Have you played a Heritage semi-hollow or just the Gibson 335?

Originally Posted by Pequod

Gibson ES 335 is the one to get - I have a 2007 lefthand vintage sunburst 335 made at Gibson's historic shop in Memphis and the sound/colour/tone/attack/action is so sweet - it's my mistress

[lpdeluxe]

The Jazzmaster is solid state, and the only non-tube amp I've owned in 35 years. There's nothing a tube amp offers that is better than the Jazzmaster.

I still have more tubes than solid state (my only other s/s is a bass amp) but if I had to choose only one amp, it would be the JM. Don't let pixie dust interfere with picking a good amplifier. There are good tube amps, and many, many, more bad ones. Same for solid state. This is a very good solid state, and weights probably about a third of what a tube amp of the same size would, and much less than a tube amp with the same 250 wattage.

[Pequod]

Tried the Heritage, the Ibanez Artist - the first series, the good ones, back in the early 80s, the Yamaha semi-solids, a Cort - get the 335, she's the one! - Pequod

[fast1]

but where is a good place to get the 335?

[bluemood]

I have a modified Fender Hot Hod Deluxe IMO it's a great little powerful amp...Light weight about 45LB with lots of bass you have to understand the controls before you can get great tone out of it... I changed my speaker to a Weber 12A150 alnico (no dope) also changed the stock tubes to JJ6l6GC bies at 68 to 70 mv and a mod to the reverb cut the treble bypass now the reverb is nice and warm ...I can play jazz, funk ,blues and rock with no problem...With the stock speaker and tubes it was ok, but with the mods IMO it's great even the drive channel is improved almost marhallish very bluesy to classic hard rock...I don't know why fender put 6l6B in there amps only giving you about 28 to 30 watts... Stock it's not really up to best that it can be...One other thing about this amp very easy to mod and with other tube types you can better your tone, if headroom is a concern you can always use tubes with a higher rating 8 to 10 that means it wont breakup until almost full tilt.

[lpdeluxe]

Originally Posted by fast1

but where is a good place to get the 335?

Online prices are all pretty much the same. I bought my 2000 Dot from craigslist for about half what everyone else was asking. It helps to be patient and to check listings frequently: I was the first person to call when I spotted the one I ended up with. I drove 300+ miles to check it out in person, but it was worth it. Since I got it in October, I've rarely played anything else.

[Pequod]

go to your friendly main dealer locally - whartever make of guitar you want - or email the maker for a list of nearest dealers - Pequod

[gwiz729]

Gibson does prefer to do business with the big guys. The store I work at had to drop them because they didn't have a plan we could afford and they won't let us sell online.

Gibson had some problems with quality control on their acoustics esp before they moved to Montana. The electrics seem to very nice guitars. The quality for these seems to be really good.

Heritage seem to be nice too. My friend who is a luthier says they are good if not a little better than Gibby's. They did change ownership over the last couple years and I was told there some quality issues.

Bottom line is: Play the guitar. Check every note on every fret. Is the neck twisted? Is the guitar setup properly? Can it be set up properly? Do you like the neck feel? (you can't change this later!)

Has anyone tried the Vox guitars or Yamaha SA2200 ???

AMPS: I have the Jazz Master UL and the Hot Rod DLX. The jazz master sounds better to me a little louder volume. It can get loud enough to jam in rock settings. I do not like the sound of some of the built in effects at this volume. It does have nice distortion. It does not work well with pedals. For smaller jazz gigs I prefer my Henriksen jazz amp. It has a little sweeter tone and those trebles frequencies don't jump out as much.

The Hot Rod is not too bad. I don't like the distortion (it can be modified though) but the effects loop is nice. It works very well with pedals. To me the '65 deluxe is the one you want. Save up. Super Sonic 22w is not bad either with more usable features for a modern player.

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by NSJ

OH, and also resale value, I suppose. Gibsons may hold their value more, due to the Gibson 'name'.

I wonder if that is going to change once the former Gibson luthiers and Heritage founders Marvin Lamb, Jim Deurloo and JP Moats have retired. Who knows, in 20 years from now Heritage guitars might become the holy grail while Gibsons are produced in Asia.

[mr. beaumont]

FYI: Zombie Thread

[NSJ]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

FYI: Zombie Thread

Indeed. I don't even have the Heritage guitars I owned back when I first posted about them in this thread. Sold. Not that they were bad guitars, mind you.

[Patrick2]

Because I am a representative of Heritage, I purposly waited until you seemed to have made up your mind before I jumped into this thread. There is a lot of very accurate info in most of the threads that were posted in reply to the OP. The only innacurate info that I saw was that Heritage is under new ownership and that quality may have slipped a little. Not so!! Two of the original founders of the company, Marv Lamm and Jim Deurloo are still activlely building guitars and running the day to day operations in Kalamazoo. A third founder, JP Moats, has retired and is now catching big fish down in Alabama. The forth founder, Bill Paige is still working at the plant, but no longer in an ownership capacity. A few years ago, a local attorney, Mr. Vince Margol acquired a share of the company and is very active in the day to day operations . . . more as a business manager that anything else. (I suppose that Vince could probably build a guitar . . . but I doubt that it would look like a guitar or play like a guitar when he was done with it) Heritage's quality control and the products they are currently putting out are at the highest level of quality ever!! Since their beginning back in 1985, their quality was hit and miss . . .more hits than misses but they did have their share of "issues" . . not unlike most other guitar manufacturing plants. But, they are really on top of their game right now.

As it relates to the older owners retiring . . . I expect at some time that will have to happen. But, don't look for it any time too soon. They each love what they are doing. It is not keeping them from moving on to the next chapter in their lives ... Heritage Guitars IS their lives!! But, when that time does come . . . the plant will be ready for it. They have approx 25 craftspeople in their plant . . . which is really more of a large custom shop than it is a plant. EACH of them have been personally mentored by those skilled luthiers, to the point where some of their skill sets go beyond their mentors . . . which is how it's supposed to be.

Regarding the two guitars you are considering . . . as was posted here by others, you really can't go wrong with either choice. The ES 335s are wonderful guitars. So are the H535s. People will argue back-n-forth ad nauseam which is better. I will not participate in such discussion, because it's like asking if a Mercedes Benz is better than a BMW.

There is one clear cut advantage to buying an H535 . . IF . . you are buying new. You could pretty much spec the guitar out how ever you want it. Color, hardware, pups . . . almost what ever you want. With the ES335, your choices are limited to only their current production models and colors.

I currently own a Gibson Historic Collection Custom Shop ES335 1963 Reissue . . . and an H535 with Seymour Duncan '59s . . Tone Pros locking bridge and tail piece, RS Guitar Works Bumble Bee caps and 500K pots. If my home was on fire and I could only save 1 of the 2 . . . I'd probably die trying to save both!!!

[Kuz]

Pictorial response...... 555 Custom with Throbak pickups.....



And the first ever made 535 with P-90s....

[Timo]

For the amp- the blues junior is an excellent choice- but so is the Hot rod deluxe. In the hot rod deluxe, if you change out the first position (V1) preamp tube, which is a 12AX 7 tube, for a 12 AY 7 tube- it reduces the gain by about 1/2 and allows for a much cleaner sound- a cheap modification that results in a much improved amp sound, in my opinion.
There always seem to be several on my local Craigslist- and always around $500.00- it's hard to beat for this price.

[Joe Strummer]

Well-- Kuz just convinced me and I don't even like 335-style guitars (bad scene with a red Epi in the mid 70s...). That 555 is one of the most beautiful guitars I've ever seen!

[Patrick2]

Originally Posted by Joe Strummer

Well-- Kuz just convinced me and I don't even like 335-style guitars (bad scene with a red Epi in the mid 70s...). That 555 is one of the most beautiful guitars I've ever seen!

Just to be perfectly clear Mr. Joe Strummer . . . that in NOT unusual for Heritage guitars. Kuz happens to have a great collection . . . . and like many players/collectors, he has taken great pains to seek out and acquire the best of the best. They are ALL "Custom Shop" level quality and workmanship!!! Please do not compare them to anything else. Judge them only by your own levels of discernment.

[Kuz]

Originally Posted by Joe Strummer

Well-- Kuz just convinced me and I don't even like 335-style guitars (bad scene with a red Epi in the mid 70s...). That 555 is one of the most beautiful guitars I've ever seen!

Thank you so much for the kind words.

It is a 555 Custom ordered with 1 3/4" nut width, upgraded woods package, nickel hardware, and a mahogany neck with rosewood fretboard (most 555 have an ebony board, but I prefer rosewood).

[petermelton]

Hey Patrick you replied to my thread about my new Heritage over on The Gear Page. Nice to see you're over here too!

I'll throw in my .02 cents.
I've worked in guitar sores for a while now teaching and working on instruments, and I must say the quality control on the Gibson 335's I've seen isn't the best. More dogs than good ones. Easily. They also cost more than a Heritage. And I've never played a bad Heritage. I currently have a Golden Eagle from Heritage and I'm completely in love with it. I'd go with the Heritage. The people at Heritage are also a lot friendlier and a pleasure to deal with. I'd rather give them my money just because of that.