Why the dislike for volutes?

[Jim Soloway]

Well, Jim . . as I see it . . maybe your customers didn't object to yours because, as you indicated . . it was a "valute" and not a volute. ;-)

Could be. I don't type well and I never did spell well. Add in the wondrously unpredictable results of auto-correct and you get some really amazing errors.

[Greentone]

Patrick,

LOL. Yeah... No, actually my mom and the friend were partying with friends, singing and playing my guitar and my mom's guitar. As I recall, they were playing something like "Hava Nagila"--around '62, when the movie and book "Exodus" were big. A few beers and...

Oh, well...

[XYZ]

Who needs a volute when this is possible. 280lbs of hydraulic pressure.

[wildschwein]

I had a '90s-era Gibson Les Paul Standard with no volute (as far I can remember). The guitar was briefly leaning up against a wall and it fell over and the headstock cracked--not right off but it was a major split. I had it repaired--repairman inserted splints and covered with a light misting of black paint. It played fine afterwards but I felt terrible guilt about it for years. I saved for 6 months to buy it (cost nearly $3000 Australian in 1994). If, and I know it's debatable whether it would have but if, the volute could have stopped that happening then I'm all for it. I have a Greco EG500 LP copy which has the volute and it doesn't bother me in the slightest in terms of playability.

Norlin-era Gibsons still fetch pretty good dollars on eBay. It's not like anything before that era is very affordable, so it follows suite that the prices will be high; despite the fact that many guys who didn't like the Norlin stuff when it came out are still out there (on the Net) talking it down. It's the same as CBS-era Fender. '70s-era Fender products are not that cheap and still attract high vintage price tags.

[XYZ]

Volutes don't help.
Imagine a fishing pole with a bump in the shaft. Then cast a line, hook a nice fish and try to pull it in.
Whoa my pole broke!

The neck has to be designed to flex in such a way that the stresses are spread out and not focused in one area.



This is my memory neck.
Trying to hit the 300 lb threshold.

[Greentone]

The volute seemed to come in with the Citation. What a beautiful guitar--volute and all. I remember when I first saw one. I thought that the volute was pretty gorgeous on that guitar.

I have never thought that the volute or lack of volute was any kind of a deal breaker even a deal influencer with a Gibson guitar that I have owned. What DID matter was whether or not the _instrument_ itself was a good one.

[Patrick2]

The volute seemed to come in with the Citation. What a beautiful guitar--volute and all. I remember when I first saw one. I thought that the volute was pretty gorgeous on that guitar.

I have never thought that the volute or lack of volute was any kind of a deal breaker even a deal influencer with a Gibson guitar that I have owned. What DID matter was whether or not the _instrument_ itself was a good one.

Here's the back of the head stock on my 18" Unity arch top, custom built for me by Aaron Cowles. Aaron built some of the Citations you speak of while he worked at Gibson back in the '70s. I'll see if I have a photo of the 17" Unity arch top he built for me too.

Here's the 18"



Here are the 18" and the 17" together.

[Greentone]

Patrick
It would seem that the volute on the Gibson is an Aaron Cowles design. Those Unity guitars are beautiful. I'm jealous.

[Patrick2]

Patrick
It would seem that the volute on the Gibson is an Aaron Cowles design. Those Unity guitars are beautiful. I'm jealous.

You've got nothing to be jealous about, Ken. You now own the most beautiful Super Eagle ever made.

I doubt that Aaron designed the volute for Gibson. He'd have told me that. Aaron was a humble and a modest man, except for when he was telling me about his accomplishments while at Gibson. He had several photos of himself hanging in his shop, of him receiving awards from Julius Belson, who was head of production while Aaron was there.
Aaron pointed to one of the pictures of Belson handing him award and said . . "Mr. Belson gave me that award for inventing this". And he held up a tool (quite common now) for measuring a perfect 25-1/2" scale length. It had a slide adjustable capability to enable immediate scale length changes to 24-3/4" or 25". Imagin that? Belson had been gone for quite some time when Aaron told me thaqt story . . yet, he still referred to him as Mr. Belson.

[uburoibob]

What Jim said. The objection was first raised in 1970/71 when Norlin started putting them on the headstocks. Then there was the Made In USA stamp. For those of us around and playing guitars at the time, these were dark times. Those 70s Norlins were, for the most part, terrible guitars. And we all knew it. Pancake bodies. Concrete feel. Just dreadful. Say what you will about Henry and his Gibson, but he took what had become the worst pile of crap guitar builder and turned them into great guitars again.

Yes, there were probably some good Norlin made Gibsons, but they were atypical.

So, for as long as I remember, the volute on the back of regular Gibson guitars sends up alarms about them. I think that's the bad rap - for Norlin Gibson volutes - not volutes in general.

Bob

[GNAPPI]

Volutes don't help.
Imagine a fishing pole with a bump in the shaft. Then cast a line, hook a nice fish and try to pull it in.
Whoa my pole broke!

The neck has to be designed to flex in such a way that the stresses are spread out and not focused in one area.

I worked quite a bit at a packaging drop test laboratory at IBM and can unequivocally say that constant pressure is nothing like instant shock from deceleration.

a Glass bowl inverted can easily hold a bowling ball on its base, but drop the ball from 6" no way!

As I said in an earlier post strengthening one area does nothing but move the break somewhere else if the force / trauma is increased. Ibanez still has volutes on all of their archtops, gotta be a reason. Only a damn fool designer / manufacturer would continue making them with the additional cost / time / difficulty in manufacturing if it didn't provide measurable results. I don't think Ibanez has fools working there, not with the success they've made chopping market share away from the companies with the logo "head stamp tax" :-)

[XYZ]

GNAPPI
I know that load test and drop/shock tests are different.
I have made several test samples with internal structural improvements versus conventional Gibson style without volute.
Conventional Gibson type breaks during load 140-175 lbs while my improved test samples achieved 250-280lbs.

Maybe someone will be interested in my findings and use it in production.

XYZ

[XYZ]

I worked quite a bit at a packaging drop test laboratory at IBM and can unequivocally say that constant pressure is nothing like instant shock from deceleration.

a Glass bowl inverted can easily hold a bowling ball on its base, but drop the ball from 6" no way!

As I said in an earlier post strengthening one area does nothing but move the break somewhere else if the force / trauma is increased. Ibanez still has volutes on all of their archtops, gotta be a reason. Only a damn fool designer / manufacturer would continue making them with the additional cost / time / difficulty in manufacturing if it didn't provide measurable results. I don't think Ibanez has fools working there, not with the success they've made chopping market share away from the companies with the logo "head stamp tax" :-)

Why aren't all Ibanez guitars made with a volute? "gotta be a reason".

[Patrick2]

I worked quite a bit at a packaging drop test laboratory at IBM and can unequivocally say that constant pressure is nothing like instant shock from deceleration.

a Glass bowl inverted can easily hold a bowling ball on its base, but drop the ball from 6" no way!

As I said in an earlier post strengthening one area does nothing but move the break somewhere else if the force / trauma is increased. Ibanez still has volutes on all of their archtops, gotta be a reason. Only a damn fool designer / manufacturer would continue making them with the additional cost / time / difficulty in manufacturing if it didn't provide measurable results. I don't think Ibanez has fools working there, not with the success they've made chopping market share away from the companies with the logo "head stamp tax" :-)

"The Michigan Drop Test" . .. lololol

I believe the theory is, that the head stock angle under string tension is its weakest point. Therefore, it was believed that shoring up that area with a more robust wood depth might help it when introduced to the shock of being dropped. There's a reason that we almost never hear of a strat or tele head stock breakage. There is no angle. It's a straight string pull . . string tension is more evenly distributed.

[Groyniad]

campellone puts volutes on his guitars (on the one's i've had anyway)

i have no opinions concerning them

except - i like the word too

[GNAPPI]

"The Michigan Drop Test" . .. lololol

I believe the theory is, that the head stock angle under string tension is its weakest point. Therefore, it was believed that shoring up that area with a more robust wood depth might help it when introduced to the shock of being dropped. There's a reason that we almost never hear of a strat or tele head stock breakage. There is no angle. It's a straight string pull . . string tension is more evenly distributed.

It makes me wonder why the open book head is the de facto standard at Gibson, and every attempt they made to use a straight pull head met with disdain. I wonder about early strat necks with the adjuster in the heel as opposed to the head and what the incidence of breakage is now compared to then.

Anyway... I guess the short term solution at least for shipping is to reduce string tension if shipping it?

Also...

"Why aren't all Ibanez guitars made with a volute? "gotta be a reason". "

I'll bet a reason is the (for example the Metheny) endorsement agreements had something to do with it.

[Patrick2]

It makes me wonder why the open book head is the de facto standard at Gibson, and every attempt they made to use a straight pull head met with disdain. I wonder about early strat necks with the adjuster in the heel as opposed to the head and what the incidence of breakage is now compared to then.

Anyway... I guess the short term solution at least for shipping is to reduce string tension if shipping it?

Also...

"Why aren't all Ibanez guitars made with a volute? "gotta be a reason". "

I'll bet a reason is the (for example the Metheny) endorsement agreements had something to do with it.

Reducing string tension for shipping is pretty much a standard now. But, the trick is to reduce it only enough to relax the extreme string tension, but not completely off set the neutralizing effect the string tension has on the truss rod. Otherwise, it would be wize to relax the truss rod tension as well. To not do so would result in an up bow . . putting too much pressure on the neck in the opposite direction.

What some people do when shipping an arch top with a floating bridge, is completely loosen the strings, back off the truss rod a bit . . then, they take the bridge assy off and put it in the case pocket and put a 100% cotton towel under the tail piece to keep it off of the top plate of the guitar. That's pretty much "bullet-proofing" the neck and head stock from breakage due to shock if the guitar is dropped or handled roughly.

[CamillusUSA]

What was the reasoning behind doing this?

[CamillusUSA]

I got around this by taking two Steinbergers to gigs. ;-)

[furtom]

Woah, necro-thread!

[Greentone]

I don't believe our comments on this thread are going to move opinions in the market about volutes. Epiphone and others employed the volute back in the 20s and 30s. Other builders, including Gibson, have used the volute from time-to-time. The Citation, as I pointed out, is gorgeous.

My Unity guitar, built by Aaron Cowles--longtime Gibson employee and builder of the very top-line Gibsons--has a superb looking volute:

Of course, this won't make any difference. The people who note that Jimmy Page's Les Paul didn't have a volute will always dislike volutes. That's perfectly fine.

[QAman]

The volute has been around for quite some time . In fact - I doubt you will find a Stradivarius Violin without one. I personally like the volute for structural reasons and tone. I feel the added cross section enhances the tone in a positive way (being under the nut area ) which transmits a bit of fatness and clarity throughout the fingerboard. I noticed this when sampling numerous GIbson Johnny Smiths from pre Norlin - through Norlin period - and I liked the Norlin period (volute) instruments the best. To me - Fatter - thicker necks seem to transmits a richness of tone.

Just my opinion -and Im not soliciting a debate. But I don't recall ever playing a volute guitar I didn't like.

It's really a matter of personal preference for several reasons - many of which are pure perception.

[Stringswinger]

I like volutes on some guitars (Martins in particular) but think that the Norlin volute is ugly. The smaller volute found on some Les Pauls looks OK, but the Volutes on the archtops are too big for my taste.

I like some of the Norlin changes (Chrome instead of nickel, metal buttons on the tuners instead of plastic) but dislike others (the volute, plain woods, amplifier knobs, plastic headstock overlays, pick sunbursts).

For a variety of reasons, Gibson archtops made from 1965 through 1981 do not float my boat (and I have owned a few of them) YMMV

[citizenk74]

The volute has been around for quite some time . In fact - I doubt you will find a Stradivarius Violin without one. I personally like the volute for structural reasons and tone. I feel the added cross section enhances the tone in a positive way (being under the nut area ) which transmits a bit of fatness and clarity throughout the fingerboard. I noticed this when sampling numerous GIbson Johnny Smiths from pre Norlin - through Norlin period - and I liked the Norlin period (volute) instruments the best. To me - Fatter - thicker necks seem to transmits a richness of tone.

Just my opinion -and Im not soliciting a debate. But I don't recall ever playing a volute guitar I didn't like.

It's really a matter of personal preference for several reasons - many of which are pure perception.

100% on target.

[BigMikeinNJ]

Giving kudos to volutes








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