The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I've been listening to some Nat King Cole Trio and the guitarist, Oscar Moore, has the sound I want.

    My Eastman 403 has a Lollar CC pickup, but my blackface Princeton is not really making this sound. I need a fair amount of volume, comparable to the Princeton so I'm not sure a modern take on the Gibson EH150 would do me. Any recommendations? Oh yes, no solid state amps please






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  3. #2

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    Try an octal tube amp based on designs from the 40s.
    http://www.vintage47amps.com/files/

  4. #3

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    Hmm, I know a steel player who swears by Valco amps (it's what Jerry Bryd used) but it really doesn't have the clean volume.

    Still, the price it right!

  5. #4

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    That's the rub. Volume. That's why Fender took off and left most other amp manufacturers behind. He created amps with clean volume. But that early tone was lost.
    How much volume do you need?
    You could try a low powered Tweed Twin.
    Or a more conventional amp like a DRRI or Twin reverb and alter the tone with a graphic EQ pedal.

  6. #5

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    I don't use eq pedals. And an eq pedal won't give me that sound out of a BF Fender anyway. I have/use a Baggs ParaEQ (with my gypsy guitar) as well as an RC Booster, but a problem with using active eq is it adds to the noise floor, and there's another box to carry around, batteries, etc and I don't want to fiddle with those And I've tried both those and they don't cut it anyway.

    I've thought about a low powered Tweed Twin, but that might be overkill, not to mention hideously expensive. I just need the same clean volume as a PRRI,and certainly not much more weight than my Princeton. I am giving some serious thought to a Tweed Deluxe, maybe one tricked out to 25 watts and 6L6's.

    The problem with both these ideas is I have no way of testing them out seeing as no one carries those amps in town. I'm kinda hoping someone else has been down this road and done all the work for me

    My sound through my Princeton is a fine sound, a perfectly good one -- I'm just looking for that 40's/50's tone if possible.

  7. #6

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    The tone your chasing predates the "E" series amps (5e3 Deluxe , 5e5 Pro, 5e8 Twin etc.). Those had noval preamp tubes and cathodyne phase inverters and fixed biased power tubes (except for the Deluxe which had cathode biased power tubes). You want an octal front end and a paraphase phase inverter and cathode biased power tubes. Look at the 5b/c5 TV-front Pro. Oh by the way, the sound you're after is one of my favorites. I really need to build an ES-250 type guitar!

  8. #7

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    The Vintage 47 stuff is IT for that tone. And he's got great prices too. Someday, I will own one...

    Altho, I'll tell you- the brown Fender Excelsior actually does that pretty well... it only does 2 things well: that tone, and when you turn it up, Neil Young-ish raspy garage rock. But seriously- the brown Excelsior, by accident I'm sure, is in that ballpark.

  9. #8

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    BTW- there are 2 people working on EH-150/EH-185 designs... one in Europe, one in America. Neither are in production yet, but I think the guy in Europe is actually building them now, to order... I sold him a Weber Alnico to try in the new design.

    The guy in the US is the same guy that makes the Nocturne Brain - google it.

  10. #9

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    Cool NKC vids. IMO, however, that guitar sound was more "guitar" than "amp"..

  11. #10

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    yeah I know you're on a budget, but this'll get you there right quick...



    http://www.ebay.com/itm/251466165960...84.m1423.l2649

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.G.
    I am giving some serious thought to a Tweed Deluxe, maybe one tricked out to 25 watts and 6L6's.
    .
    Chicken Pickin Amps makes one with 5881s...
    http://cpamps.com/

  13. #12

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    +1 for Vintage 47 amps. Or any kind of Octal tube preamp fender 5b3, 5c3.

    You can actually find some early Gibson amps, GA-25's and 30's and BR-series amps for relatively cheap, as compared to EH-series amps. And the circuits were pretty darn similar until the early 50's - all octal tubes.

    I just played a lollar-CC equipped guitar for the first time. I was actually really surprised at how inaccurate the dimensions were. But, it did sound pretty good. It had some of the characteristic stringiness combined with fatness. Funny, I plugged it to the shop owners "magic" modded Blackface Princeton, which sounded fantastic.

    FWIW - the difference between Charlie Christian and Oscar Moore is all in the fingers and attack. Historically the gear was the same, though I'm guessing at some point they gave Oscar one of the ES-300's with the long slanted pickup, and maybe one of the ones with basically just a bridge pickup, because there's some stuff that is way too twangy sounding to be a CC neck pickup.

    Also, historically they wouldn't have had flats until the 50's, so Moore/Cole is definitely round wound pure nickels, though you might try Martin Tony Rice Monel strings, because Gibson Mona-Steel (Monel) is probably what Charlie and Oscar played.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by campusfive
    +1 for Vintage 47 amps. Or any kind of Octal tube preamp fender 5b3, 5c3.

    .
    The 5C3 Champion 600 (vintage of course) is still the best Champ I've ever heard. Even the famous 5E3 tweed champ doesn't compare, imo. If an old tweed champ sounds great, and old Champion 600 sounds AMAZING.

  15. #14

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    just curious.. why no solid state?

  16. #15

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    Hey, thanks all for the great suggestions! I'm definitely gonna look into all of these.

    I'm not looking for an exact clone of that Oscar Moore sound, but certainly something with that kind of midrange emphasis and high end. I play mainly with a gypsy technique, which means really, really hard with an extremely heavy pick I know that this will make a difference in the final sound, but I also know that the amp will do a lot for the frequencies I'm looking for. I also really dig a lot of those early Grant Green tones, hence my interest in 5E3 circuits.

    I use roundwound strings cause flats just make me itchy I've used round core nickel strings before but I don't find enough difference with a standard set of D'Addarios 12's with wound 3rd to justify the price and ease of purchase -- ie. I can pop out to the local guitar shop for the D'Addarios whereas the round core nickel strings have to be ordered online.

    As for volume, I need to be able to play a decent sized room without recourse to the PA. My PRRI loaded with a Red Fang 10 (an extremely loud speaker) can just cope without going into breakup -- unless I really pound the strings. I also need to be able to compete with my other guitar player who uses an Anderson Metro through a DRRI, and the rest of the band needs to hear me for the pulse as we don't use a drummer.

    Of course, maybe I could go with the lower powered amp when I know there is a PA with a sound person and continue to use my PRRI when there isn't.

    Ah, decisions, decisions!



  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by SamBooka
    just curious.. why no solid state?
    I don't wanna it's because solid state sucks, but...

    No, really, I own a couple of solid state amps and gig them, but there is a mojo to tubes that no SS amp can give you. And I want an extremely vintage sound and no SS amp is going to be able to get there well enough for my needs.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruger9
    The Vintage 47 stuff is IT for that tone. And he's got great prices too. Someday, I will own one...

    Altho, I'll tell you- the brown Fender Excelsior actually does that pretty well... it only does 2 things well: that tone, and when you turn it up, Neil Young-ish raspy garage rock. But seriously- the brown Excelsior, by accident I'm sure, is in that ballpark.
    Huh, that's a great idea! I'll run out to a guitar store this weekend and give one a test drive.

    And I'm giving some rather serious consideration the the Vintage 47 amps as well, specifically the National Reso-Phonic Post War 15watt model.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by campusfive
    +1 for Vintage 47 amps. Or any kind of Octal tube preamp fender 5b3, 5c3.

    You can actually find some early Gibson amps, GA-25's and 30's and BR-series amps for relatively cheap, as compared to EH-series amps. And the circuits were pretty darn similar until the early 50's - all octal tubes.
    Do you find your Gibson amp loud enough for soloing in a full band setting, i.e. with a drummer and no PA, or do you always run the amp through a PA?

  20. #19

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    That question is impossible to answer in a meaningful way. How loud is your band?

    I don't have enough inputs on our own board to mic it when I do sound for ourselves, so it's not mic'd all that often, but I'm guessing it gets picked up some by the condenser mic that picks up my acoustic rhythm playing.

    To be honest, sometimes I wish it were louder, but I'd have to sacrifice that specific quality of tone to do it, and forget that.

    Also, every time I wish I had more volume, the correct answer is actually that everyone else is too goddam loud.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by campusfive
    Also, every time I wish I had more volume, the correct answer is actually that everyone else is too goddam loud.
    Yeah, I think that's the real answer right there

    My band is actually surprisingly loud for a six-piece that has no drummer and no horns (2 guitars, upright bass, 2 vocals one with accordion/melodica and violin.) We do play some really loud rooms though so un-amped is never an option for me. Also, swing dancers in Portland are pretty loud people! I have gone miced a few times and that has both worked well and been a complete disaster. My actual favorite is to be both amped AND miced, but I only do that on special occasions.

    Thanks for the input and I'd like to tell you I'm a big fan of your blog as well!

  22. #21

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    [QUOTE=D.G.;404922]I've been listening to some Nat King Cole Trio and the guitarist, Oscar Moore, has the sound I want. My Eastman 403 has a Lollar CC pickup, but my blackface Princeton is not really making this sound. I need a fair amount of volume, comparable to the Princeton so I'm not sure a modern take on the Gibson EH150 would do me. Any recommendations? Oh yes, no solid state amps please

    Sheesh, just get an old Ampeg. Way cheaper than that old Fedner junk, and they sound great.

  23. #22

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    [QUOTE=Hammertone;405381]
    Quote Originally Posted by D.G.
    Sheesh, just get an old Ampeg. Way cheaper than that old Fedner junk, and they sound great.
    I'll try just about anything (no solid state, no modeling) if it'll get me the sound I'm lookin' for

  24. #23

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    I love Oscar Moore. One of the best guitarists non-guitar freaks have never heard of.

    As to clean volume, one of the things that made Oscar Moore and Charlie Christian sound the way they did is that it was not so clean. They used low wattage tube amps and it started to kind of break up and compress when they turned it up enough to play with bands.

    Solid state will never give the OM, CC sound. When they start to distort, they just clip and sound awful.

    I like the Vintage 47 amps, but you have to be careful with them. I was at a guitar show in San Rafael, California this January where some guy was playing a jazz box through one. His playing was pretty good, but he had the volume up past the "kind of break up and compress" stage so it was just plain loud and distorted. It gave me a headache.

  25. #24

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    Well, I went down to Portland Music on Sunday with my Lollar CC loaded Eastman 403 and plugged into a Fender Excelsior Pro and it was instant sound of old records I bought one in tan, took it home, played with it at all volumes, ab'd it with my Princeton and I think it's a winner. I'll know more when I use it on a gig next week.

    The only drawback is the weight, and that's mainly coming from the huge 15" speaker. My online research indicates it's a fender branded Eminence Legend 151 which has a sensitivity rating of 102.2 db -- about the same as the Red Fang in my Princeton.

    At $399 it's cheaper than about anything else I can think of! Thanks to ruger9 for the recommendation!

  26. #25

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    Nice you found a solution for low $$$.