The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Hey D.G., did you try the standard Excelsior as well? I wonder how much difference the speaker upgrade on the Pro makes.

    Billm has a cool mod to add a tone pot:

    http://billmaudio.com/wp/?page_id=1506

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chazmo
    Hey D.G., did you try the standard Excelsior as well? I wonder how much difference the speaker upgrade on the Pro makes.

    Billm has a cool mod to add a tone pot:

    http://billmaudio.com/wp/?page_id=1506
    I did. The standard Excelesior was much lighter weight, but the tone was a bit less clear and it broke up much earlier on the dial and wasn't nearly as loud. However, all of my research indicates that the only difference between the original Ex and the Ex Pro is the speaker. The pro comes with the speaker upgrade everyone recommends, and I also read that replacing the speaker means taking the amp apart which is a bit of a pain in ass, so even if you did buy the original you really don't save any significant money if you plan on upgrading the speaker yourself.

    As for the Billm tone mod, I think it's a nifty idea, but then, I'm using the brightest setting on the amp and rolling off the tone on the guitar instead I really don't plan on using any pedals with this amp so I'm happy to have the tone control on the guitar. Now that tremelo mod he posted is something I could really go for though. Hopefully he'll have it publicly available sooner rather than later.

  4. #28

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    The standard (brown) Excelsior has a very small-magnet, inefficient speaker. It does break up early, and has a sound more like early BB King and Louis Jordan records than Oscar Moore. I actually owned a brown one for awhile, and even spent big $$$ putting a Weber Alnico in it, trying to get it to sound even better... but ironically, the Weber didn't sound much better than the cheap stock speaker! I didn't go with the "Pro" version because that Legend is indeed LOUD- great for gigs, not so great for around the house.

    Glad you like it! I sold mine, just because that isn't a tone I use all the time, and I'm saving up for my dream amp (a Swart AST Master)... but I think those Excelsiors look really cool, and sound good for the $$$. I bet it'll be loud enough for your gigs, with the Legend in there.

    I did the tone pot mod, and I found it useful. Especially if you're using more than one guitar.
    Last edited by ruger9; 03-11-2014 at 10:26 AM.

  5. #29

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    I've been thinking...

    I wonder how much of that tone we all love, on the old recordings, is the actual amp tone, and how much of it is not only HOW it was recorded, with WHAT, and the age that is on that medium (tape? acetate?) now?

    Sort of like when you hear any guitar tone on a record, you're not hearing the guitar thru the amp, you're hearing the guitar thru the amp thru the mic(s) thru the board re-EQ'd to sit perfectly in the mix, quite possibly compressed... and definitely compressed on something like FM radio or an ipod...

    I guess the only REAL way to know would be to actually play an EH-150/EH-185 (or similar old amp) IN PERSON.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruger9
    I've been thinking...

    I wonder how much of that tone we all love, on the old recordings, is the actual amp tone, and how much of it is not only HOW it was recorded, with WHAT, and the age that is on that medium (tape? acetate?) now?

    Sort of like when you hear any guitar tone on a record, you're not hearing the guitar thru the amp, you're hearing the guitar thru the amp thru the mic(s) thru the board re-EQ'd to sit perfectly in the mix, quite possibly compressed... and definitely compressed on something like FM radio or an ipod...

    I guess the only REAL way to know would be to actually play an EH-150/EH-185 (or similar old amp) IN PERSON.
    Yeah, I read that response often .... but that shouldn't stop folks from trying to capture that sound. Most guitar tones can be duplicated. Not always easy, but, it never hurts to keep on trying as, I believe, (from my own experience) players may not be looking to duplicate the EXACT tone, but rather a close proximity, and the "feeling" of that tone. Yes, it's hard to define tone with words, but, there is not much like capturing the "feel" of a guitar and amp combination when you get the same response and feel you are after. It keeps the interest peaked

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack
    Yeah, I read that response often .... but that shouldn't stop folks from trying to capture that sound. Most guitar tones can be duplicated. Not always easy, but, it never hurts to keep on trying as, I believe, (from my own experience) players may not be looking to duplicate the EXACT tone, but rather a close proximity, and the "feeling" of that tone. Yes, it's hard to define tone with words, but, there is not much like capturing the "feel" of a guitar and amp combination when you get the same response and feel you are after. It keeps the interest peaked
    Oh I totally agree.... I just find it ironic that, even after what could be years of tone searching/gear searching, when you finally "match" the tone you are after, there's a very good chance you are, in reality, just "close"- and I'd venture a guess the older the recording technology/medium, the less close you are.

    An archtop thru a lo-fi amp, recorded with room mics (back then, they played live), and then etched onto acetate or recorded onto tape..... not to mention the re-mastering some 50 years later of 50-year-old tape... alot of tone-changing variables there.

    Bottom line is, always, if YOU are happy with YOUR tone.

  8. #32

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    I am updating a thread, here. I think that Oscar Moore deserves regular mention. He was a great player. When I listen to Moore, it seems to me that he was probably a guy who was under the spell of the incredible, clear channel music coming out of Chicago between the wars. A very young George Barnes was all over the radio at that time, influencing all sorts of players via records and radio spots. Barnes appeared on blues records, jazz records, and radio shows all day long.

    To me, Moore has the Barnes sound and feel--not to deny his own, original voice. Like everyone at the time, Moore was using first the Gibson ES-150, then he used an L5 with the pickup from a 150 set in the top. His amp choice was probably a Gibson EH-150, judging from the tone. And what a tone it is.

    If you want to play like Moore, you need to use plenty of slurs, like Moore, Barnes, and Les Paul (who was also deeply influenced by Barnes). If you can get a Lollar CC or one of the other CC-type pickups for your solid-top archtop, so much the better.

    Finally, a small, all-tube (25-watts or less) amp with a 10" or 12" speaker--Jensen-style--cathode-biased output tubes, and (this is sort of important) only a "tone" knob, rather than a modern tone stack, is the weapon of choice for amplification. This type of circuit is usually capable of getting a little "wool" to stand up on your notes--not too much distortion, but not too clean, either. "Dirt" is too indicative of distortion in the signal IMO; you just want to sound a little wooly, like the amp is really loose and broken in.

    My closest effort at achieving an Oscar Moore tone was playing a 30s Gibson ES-150 into a Fender Deluxe amp--tweed.

  9. #33

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    Here's an interesting read if you haven't seen it before....

    A Modernist: Oscar Moore and Fender (1951)


  10. #34

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    Thanks. Great article. Cool Nocaster!

  11. #35

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    off the top of my head I can think of at least 5 more guitars not mentioned that he used @ one point or another

    an early 30s D'Angelico snakehead, 20s dot neck L-5, ES-300 w/slanted the large pickup, P-90 ES-5, Epiphone Emperor.

    long been one of my absolute favorites. I believe he won 4 or 5 Metronome polls in a row @ one point.
    had a hard time after leaving Nat, sadly died a bricklayer I believe.

    I have the Complete Nat Cole trio sessions on Mosaic, 17 c.d.'s [!] .....what a great player

  12. #36

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    Missing the Mosaic box set is a regular source of anguish to me.
    Mp3's just aint the same.

  13. #37

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    Sometimes just the speaker will get you close. I found, by accident, putting in an old Jensen C12PS from the early 60s into my 2013 15w Ampeg GVT changed her into a much older sounding amp. Such a drastic change but very much in that good older post war kinda way. I'm keeping her in there. It gets me close enough for my tastes.

  14. #38

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    Fascinating stuff re. the Fender guitar. Never seen that photo before.

    Oscar Moore is one of my favourite guitarists. The phrasing, lines, tone... absolutely perfect. His comping is also incredible. I always thought the Nat King Cole Trio sounded like it was a much bigger group. I think them being such a musically tight group is partly why.

    I found I could get a pretty good Oscar Moore-esque sound out of my Vox AC15 (which like a dope, I sold) -- I used to back of the tops to zero, and roll the bass back a bit. It was a clear, slightly honky sound and would break up ever so slightly when pushed. I was using at the time my Godin 5th Avenue that is fitted with a floating VV CC pickup. My Gretsch Synchromatic 400 gets even closer to the Oscar Moore sound I feel.

  15. #39

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    I will second the recommendation for the Jensen PS series of speakers.

    I have a 10 inch version. In my Princeton Reverb, the neck pickup of my guitars had a lo-fi quality.

    Lo mids were prominent and the spkr. has a vocal quality I really liked.

    I removed it in favor of something more aggressive and suited to Blues gigs. The Jensen stays at home

    waiting for something special! And these can be found for less $$$$ since the demand , I believe, is lower.

  16. #40

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    well i too have a brown "original" excelsior bought new very cheap ...and i just add a reverb pedal but i get instant "old" /"vintage" guitar tone no problem so i will add a vote to it being the 'cheap" answer to a very "dated sound " especially with with an old full hollow 330 type guitar and flats .... and to my ears sounds more like an old gibson GA tube amp than a fender amp ...... and solo or with my trio i play relatively softly so never even driven it to breaking up yet and still gigged intimate gigs ..also never missed the tone control ....just set it on dark setting and use the tone and volume pot on guitar .............so indeed a very cheap new "dated sounding amp" and that 15 makes it really fat so you needn't drive it that hard to fill a room .....

    i can imagine the upgraded speaker must really give it ooomph ....

    btw i was a real "gear snob" and i avoided this amp for ages since it never had tone controls nor reverb and was Chinese built ... never even plugged into it in my local store .... but eventually did after i saw a youtube video with Tim Lerch playing one ...loved the "instant vintage jazz tone that i like " and then when i was given a price of $300 on special ...it was simply an impulse buy and not regretted it

  17. #41

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    Hi,
    Something that hasn't been mentioned here regarding the Oscar Moore/ et all sound,. It is my belief that back in the day the players would almost never have the volume knob on their guitars all the way up, they would often run them quite low in the half way up range. This changed the quality of the sound quite a bit allowing them to get a cleaner slightly brighter tone than would result if they had played on full. It also helped reduce the hum inherent in a CC pickup. I had the unique opportunity to try an old ES150 with a CC into a EH 185 amp and was able to verify this. i have a video of this encounter but its on my phone and i have to procces it. if i get it figured out and up on YT ill drop a note here.
    all the best
    Tim

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by TLerch
    Hi,
    Something that hasn't been mentioned here regarding the Oscar Moore/ et all sound,. It is my belief that back in the day the players would almost never have the volume knob on their guitars all the way up, they would often run them quite low in the half way up range. This changed the quality of the sound quite a bit allowing them to get a cleaner slightly brighter tone than would result if they had played on full. It also helped reduce the hum inherent in a CC pickup. I had the unique opportunity to try an old ES150 with a CC into a EH 185 amp and was able to verify this. i have a video of this encounter but its on my phone and i have to procces it. if i get it figured out and up on YT ill drop a note here.
    all the best
    Tim
    Tim, where is your source(s) for this? I've never come across this info, anywhere, over years of reading...

    (not doubting you- just interested; obviously you know your stuff- your reputation proceeds you! I'm just honestly more curious about this, as I have NEVER read anything of it...)

  19. #43

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    Ruger,
    I've been curious about the CC sound and P90 sound since i was very young and always asked older players about it when ever i could. I have spoken to lots of older guys who got their start in the 30s including Jimmy Wyble and almost all of them mentioned "keeping the pickup down" as part of the formula. One of my early mentors, was a guy named Ben Barrow, a pretty good player who traveled with big bands during the heyday then settled down in my home town, he was about 70 when i knew him in 1975 -80 or so.. He had an ES 150 and a matching EH 150 and he turned the amp up almost all the way and barely cracked the volume on the guitar. when i asked him why he said otherwise the "Bar" will push the amp too much!"
    im sure there are as many other ways as there are guys, clearly sometimes there is distortion on recordings . but when I have had a chance to play an ES 150 thru a EH 185 i tried turning it down and it really made it sound similar to some of the classic recordings that i have heard.

    all the best
    Tim

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by TLerch
    Ruger,
    I've been curious about the CC sound and P90 sound since i was very young and always asked older players about it when ever i could. I have spoken to lots of older guys who got their start in the 30s including Jimmy Wyble and almost all of them mentioned "keeping the pickup down" as part of the formula. One of my early mentors, was a guy named Ben Barrow, a pretty good player who traveled with big bands during the heyday then settled down in my home town, he was about 70 when i knew him in 1975 -80 or so.. He had an ES 150 and a matching EH 150 and he turned the amp up almost all the way and barely cracked the volume on the guitar. when i asked him why he said otherwise the "Bar" will push the amp too much!"
    im sure there are as many other ways as there are guys, clearly sometimes there is distortion on recordings . but when I have had a chance to play an ES 150 thru a EH 185 i tried turning it down and it really made it sound similar to some of the classic recordings that i have heard.

    all the best
    Tim
    That is the same idea I got for my teacher: Volume is achieved from the amp setting, the guitar volume is set very low. It would make sense that people of that generation playing those instruments would have follow that rule. My teacher started out in 1954 playing professionally. His favorite guitar was made by a very close friend of his named Sam Koontz. Who apparently did not make that many guitars before he died much too soon. In this case, the guitar was a Koontz 17 inch carved oval hole arch top with a floating De Armand rhythm chief 1100 pick up. the sustain and note quality on that guitar is incredible --when he got the guitar and took it to Colorado many decades ago to visit is good friend Johnny Smith, Mr. Smith gave the verdict: it was "the finest guitar I have ever played without exception".

    people like these two don't suffer fools easily and know what they're talking about. Nice to hear that the "all the volume from the amp, low guitar volume" theory has been further vindicated,

  21. #45

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    Thanks Tim, this is a very valuable point of info for those of us chasing that tone.... and your reports are the first I've heard of turning the guitar volume down in my (measly!) 10 years chasing that tone.... [been playing for 30, but only in the last 10 started the whole jump blues/swing thing on guitar]

    I hope another one of our members, Jonathan Stout, checks back in on this "new" info... I've been following him for awhile, read all his online stuff, but haven't seen him mention this approach for this tone either....

  22. #46

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    If you've ever played a Fender Tweed Deluxe, you know that to get the cleanest tone you crank the amp and then barely touch the volume on the guitar. You'll get a remarkably squeaky clean tone this way, but it does contribute a fair amount of noise floor hiss.

    You will NOT get the same result with a BF Fender or most (or any) modern amp designs.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.G.

    You will NOT get the same result with a BF Fender or most (or any) modern amp designs.
    Not true. This clear tone can be achievable with a Polytone. I've heard it many many times.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    Not true. This clear tone can be achievable with a Polytone. I've heard it many many times.
    You will not get the same kind of result from a Polytone as from a Fender Tweed Deluxe.

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.G.
    You will not get the same kind of result from a Polytone as from a Fender Tweed Deluxe.
    Let me repeat what you just wrote, changing only one word--
    If you've ever played a Polytone, you know that to get the cleanest tone you crank the amp and then barely touch the volume on the guitar. You'll get a remarkably squeaky clean tone this way, but it does contribute a fair amount of noise floor hiss."

    Actually, in point of fact, you can achieve this with many modern and old amps. There is not only one singular amp that achieves this. No need to single out a fender tweet deluxe or even a Polytone. The important thing is to keep the guitar volume low and the amp volume high.

  26. #50

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    Well good luck with that.