The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    The important thing is to keep the guitar volume low and the amp volume high.
    While that MAY be the "important" thing, there is no denying older amp designs (Fender tweed era and earlier) have a different EQ response than the amps that came after them, especially in the treble/high end.

    For example, regardless of what you do with the guitar's volume control, you're never going to get a DRRI to sound like a tweed deluxe, or EH-150, etc.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruger9
    While that MAY be the "important" thing, there is no denying older amp designs (Fender tweed era and earlier) have a different EQ response than the amps that came after them, especially in the treble/high end.

    For example, regardless of what you do with the guitar's volume control, you're never going to get a DRRI to sound like a tweed deluxe, or EH-150, etc.
    I wasn't talking about "DRRI" sounds, or changes in EQs, or saying "Amp A = "Amp B" I was, if you read the previous posts, specifically addressing the amp v guitar levels within the context of obtaining, to borrow from the exact quote, "the cleanest tone you crank the amp and then barely touch the volume on the guitar. You'll get a remarkably squeaky clean tone this way, but it does contribute a fair amount of noise floor hiss."

    That is all. He said only one amp can get you this quality (the aforementioned "squeaky clean tone". ) I was just reminding him of the obvious, that lots of amps can do this, more or less generally. It's quite strange to claim that only one amp from 60 something years ago can do this.

    anywhay. Carry on. I was just posting in response to (and agreeing with) the amp v guitar volume discussion as a contributing and significant factor in the process of obtaining a "squeaky clean tone"

  4. #53

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    It'd be very cool to hear what these really sounded like in person back then. When you listen to the overall sound of the recordings, the piano sounds very limited in its frequency response. I have to imagine in the room, it sounded like pianos still sound. I would suspect that the sound of the guitar was also similarly modified by recording limitations and would guess that there was quite a bit more going on with the transients in the room than is captured on the recordings. I think we are chasing a recorded sound - not the actual sound of the gear. Something to consider...

    Bob

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by uburoibob
    It'd be very cool to hear what these really sounded like in person back then. When you listen to the overall sound of the recordings, the piano sounds very limited in its frequency response. I have to imagine in the room, it sounded like pianos still sound. I would suspect that the sound of the guitar was also similarly modified by recording limitations and would guess that there was quite a bit more going on with the transients in the room than is captured on the recordings. I think we are chasing a recorded sound - not the actual sound of the gear. Something to consider...

    Bob

    i absolutely agree....and have posted it myself before....

    if you really wanna chase true vintage tone ......

    best way to truly hear it is to get original (unmodded) vintage 40's guitars and amps and plug em in AND HEAR WHAT THEY OFFER

    also to play in the same style/technique as players back then.... we forget modern players tend to like old tone but most play with modern technique....

    if we think back ...back in 40's solo electric guitar was in it's infancy , as was the gear and technique and approach and players were discovering ways to play the new gear daily at their gigs........with no real pioneers to draw experience from...brand new technology for it's day .......

    also the strings of the day were playing a role too ... today string technology has advanced hugely
    ...ever think sure how an old 50's P90 would sound with modern wound strings versus same P90 with old 40's manufactured strings ??? i have no clue but it could be interesting

    often the tone of old recordings may be in the flaws of the technology of the time.... be it amp technology/guitar construction/pickup design/pickup magnets/strings/even playing techniques and as mentioned above the limited frequencies of recordings from the 40's /50's
    Last edited by Keira Witherkay; 02-17-2015 at 02:19 AM.

  6. #55
    destinytot Guest
    No PA - guitar and vocals sent through a Polytone (with amp's volume set high and guitar's kept low):

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I wasn't talking about "DRRI" sounds, or changes in EQs, or saying "Amp A = "Amp B" I was, if you read the previous posts, specifically addressing the amp v guitar levels within the context of obtaining, to borrow from the exact quote, "the cleanest tone you crank the amp and then barely touch the volume on the guitar. You'll get a remarkably squeaky clean tone this way, but it does contribute a fair amount of noise floor hiss."

    That is all. He said only one amp can get you this quality (the aforementioned "squeaky clean tone". ) I was just reminding him of the obvious, that lots of amps can do this, more or less generally. It's quite strange to claim that only one amp from 60 something years ago can do this.

    anywhay. Carry on. I was just posting in response to (and agreeing with) the amp v guitar volume discussion as a contributing and significant factor in the process of obtaining a "squeaky clean tone"
    Ah. Understood. Thanks for the clarification.

  8. #57

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    Gibson GA's with the octal preamp tubes, from the early 50's, sound great and are pretty cheap, particularly if beat up. I had a GA-30 with the 12" and 8" speaker that sounded fabulous. A great, full clean tone, and and when cranked was wonderful.


    Amp up, pickup low should be the default setting to start with in any situation.

  9. #58

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    Regarding the Excelsior, this article suggests some tube substitutions I tried and happy with the results:

    thetubestore Blog - Excelsior! New Fender Amp, Old Tubes

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by TLerch
    Hi,
    Something that hasn't been mentioned here regarding the Oscar Moore/ et all sound,. It is my belief that back in the day the players would almost never have the volume knob on their guitars all the way up, they would often run them quite low in the half way up range. This changed the quality of the sound quite a bit allowing them to get a cleaner slightly brighter tone than would result if they had played on full. It also helped reduce the hum inherent in a CC pickup. I had the unique opportunity to try an old ES150 with a CC into a EH 185 amp and was able to verify this. i have a video of this encounter but its on my phone and i have to procces it. if i get it figured out and up on YT ill drop a note here.
    all the best
    Tim
    I'm going to have to agree with the low guitar volume theory, especially when it comes to guys like Charlie. Oscar Moore had, at times, a much brighter sound, and I'm no expert on Oscar Moore, so I'll limit my talk to Charlie.

    Playing my ES-150/EH-185 combination, it does sound much sweeter with the volume knob low. I know the magnet in my pickup is already super low output (because when I plug in my Eastman 810CE with it's stock floater, its orders of magnitude louder), and I have the pickup pretty low to the top, but it still sounds best when the volume knob is below half-way. I can't describe it as "brighter", but clearer and warmer to be sure. I tend to notice it sounding "twangier" at full guitar volume, and definitely more saturated and gain-y. To me, that would be "brighter", but I can say its not the entire high end thats boosted, because its still very warm by comparison to other amps and amp/guitar combinations, but it's definitely got more twang and snarl.

    Some players (like say SRV) sound like themselves very overtly on almost any instrument. I'm quite the opposite, and tend to bend my playing to my perception of the sound of the guitar. When I play a Selmer-style, I tend to play far more Django-y ideas, lots of ornamentation, diminished licks, gypsy-isms. My National makes me play far more Eddie Lang-Lonnie Johnson type things (and I've never really studied either one at length, but it just comes out that way). My Eastman 805 non-cut, if I play single notes, tend to start veering toward Al Casey-type things. When the ES150/EH185 combination is in play, and the volume knob is lower, I can really channel Charlie. But, and this was the whole point of the last paragraph, when the guitar volume knob is all the way up, the twangier/snarlier tone tends to make feel like it sounds more like a Western Swing player, and I think more twangier, sooped-up phrases. That's a cool sound, but unless I'm actually playing with a Western band, it's a bit out of place for my own bands. So, I definitely find the best tone for that combination is with the volume knob low.

    By the way, I feel the same effects with keeping the volume knob low on that that guitar when using my other EH amps, my 1946 BR-6, and my Oahu/Valco, and even on the Vintage 47 Ric-style I borrowed over New Years.

  11. #60

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    OK, I'm sold... first Tim, then Jonathan. I will have to try this "guitar vol knob lower" thing.... my usual playing style, which is more of a blues/rock thing, I'm only turning down the volume to clean up a tube amp... I'm not using the approach as part of the "tone formula", if you will. Same deal with my Grestch/playing rockabilly...... so I will now crank the amp, and turn the guitar down, to search for those Charlie tones....

    I, like Jonathan, sort of "change styles" a bit, depending on the guitar/tone I'm getting/music I'm playing over. With my tele, I'm all blues/rock/retro.... maybe a little rockabilly/western swing flavor. With my Grestch, I'm rockabilly/western swing and on the neck pickup old school jump blues (T-Bone Walker, et al)... volumes full up on the guitars. But when I pick up the Epi Broadway, I'm definitely looking for more Charlie/Junior Barnard, and if I'm feeling especially "mellow", I'll attempt to channel Johnny Smith- which really is a tone unto itself, not really similar to the other 2 guys.... (not to mention I can't play AT ALL like Smith lol)

    And, I just remembered something... the earliest amps (made for lap steels) didn't even have a volume control. That's what the volume knob on the guitar was for.... so that would seem to tie in to the idea of "cranking the amp, controlling volume from the guitar" in those earlier days of amplification, even if the amps did have volume controls..... interestingly, in my experience, modern amps don't sound good when cranked. I guess with the guitar volume down they could- I know for certain that is what Jim Campilongo does- and I LOVE his tones-... but, almost without exception, a modern amp cranked, with the guitar volume wide open, sounds like doo-doo. In my experiences.
    Last edited by ruger9; 02-17-2015 at 05:03 PM.

  12. #61

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    While none of my guitars have an original CC pickup, they use floating versions of the CC pickup made by Pete Biltoft- so the magnet is Alnico 2 instead of Cobalt, but they are still wound with 38 gauge wire, I have had the chance to compare them to a real ES150 and they did come pretty close. The sweet spot on the volume control for me is about half way, that's where the hum is not as noticeable and the tone is the best. It gets brighter the louder it's turned up, and the hum gets louder too.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruger9
    I guess with the guitar volume down they could- I know for certain that is what Jim Campilongo does- and I LOVE his tones-...
    yes he mentions it often say he cranks the princeton to full and roll back volume on tele ...

    great to see there's more Campilongo fans on the forum....i simply love his work ....solo or with his trio or with Honeyfingers and even with 10 gallon cats ....such an amazing player , his playing inspires me no end one of the few original players and yes i absolutely agree great tone .... tele and 65 princeton reverb ...and add the secret ingredient his talent/skill

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keira Witherkay
    yes he mentions it often say he cranks the princeton to full and roll back volume on tele ...

    great to see there's more Campilongo fans on the forum....i simply love his work ....solo or with his trio or with Honeyfingers and even with 10 gallon cats ....such an amazing player , his playing inspires me no end one of the few original players and yes i absolutely agree great tone .... tele and 65 princeton reverb ...and add the secret ingredient his talent/skill
    HUGE Campy fan. I even had one of the orange PRRIs Fender made to coincide with his "Orange" album release. It's funny, I'm not sure I consider him "jazz". "Cowboy jazz"? Maybe? Not sure.... he certainly has a place on the forum, but putting the "jazz" moniker on him definitely limits his appeal, imo. Can't wait for the Honeyfingers album to be released!! Now THAT will be some hillbilly jazz!!!!

  15. #64
    I to don't play with my volume control wide open. I have it set between 3 & 5 for rhythm and for a solo I'll turn it up to 8 or 9. I never play with it on "10".

    As for Jim Campilongo, yes he is a great player with great tone but that's because he uses a tele with a top loader bridge. Just like me.

  16. #65

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    Hi Guys, here is a clip that you might enjoy, i had a chance about a year ago to play the combination in question.



    not really serious playing just kind of being giddy about getting the chance to play it.

    all the best

    Tim

  17. #66

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    Sweet, Tim!!!! SO..... did you turn down the guitar volume knob???

  18. #67

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    the very last part is with the volume down a bit.

  19. #68

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    What a cool opportunity, to get to play Charlie's "rig"... makes me want to get some CC pups for my Epi Broadway from Pete Biltoft....

    ...AND that Vintage47 EH-185 in the other thread!!! lol

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by TLerch
    Hi Guys, here is a clip that you might enjoy, i had a chance about a year ago to play the combination in question.



    not really serious playing just kind of being giddy about getting the chance to play it.

    all the best

    Tim

    awesome video there Tim ...wow what a rush it must have been to play a '37 with a age specific amp .... awesome indeed .

    OMG and the noise from the rig.... i will NEVER again bitch that my amp is noisy ......... EVER

    great to hear that ...and as alway Tim fabulous playing .....

    thanks for sharing

  21. #70

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    How to get Oscar Moore tone-if-you-have-means-jpg
    All I can say is to quote Ferris Bueller:
    "So choice.... If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up"



    But seriously, it's a wonderful, if buzzy, thing.
    Last edited by campusfive; 02-19-2015 at 03:59 AM.

  22. #71

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    Oh, and I would totally kill for the matching tweed/airplane cloth case.

  23. #72

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    Ok, so I threw together a video demoing playing at various different positions on the volume knob. Hope you guys find it somewhat illustrative. Cheers.

    Last edited by campusfive; 02-24-2015 at 03:34 AM.

  24. #73

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    Great vids!

    You can also try to find an early GA-6 (1954/55). The amps tone
    is right into the ballpark. Thick jazz tones and a nice edge around the tones.
    To die for when played with P-90's.

  25. #74

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    Jonathan, that was a great video. you play great and really have the tone and time together. im glad to find out about you.

    all the best
    Tim

  26. #75

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    heres a great track, the time feel of this track is just so great - also its a long track for the time - which showcases Oscar a little better...