The death of the guitar as we know it?

[Meggy]

I was alerted to this new Fender/Roland product on another forum:

NAMM '12 - Roland G-5 VG Stratocaster Demo - YouTube

Note the jazz guitar patch he uses at about 4.20 by the way. It's undeniably an impressive demonstration of what technology can do these days, but I have to say I just don't like it - when I go to a gig, I want to hear a sound from the guitarist that bears some relationship to the instrument and amp he's playing, not a digitally modelled patch, however well done! But that's just me, maybe I'm getting old...

[kris]

Originally Posted by Meggy

I was alerted to this new Fender/Roland product on another forum:

NAMM '12 - Roland G-5 VG Stratocaster Demo - YouTube

Note the jazz guitar patch he uses at about 4.20 by the way. It's undeniably an impressive demonstration of what technology can do these days, but I have to say I just don't like it - when I go to a gig, I want to hear a sound from the guitarist that bears some relationship to the instrument and amp he's playing, not a digitally modelled patch, however well done! But that's just me, maybe I'm getting old...

It is different product... may be it will be inspration for somebody.
I think people like experiments with the sound.
I do not think so it has "jazz dark-warm sound"...

[P.J.]

Originally Posted by Meggy

I was alerted to this new Fender/Roland product on another forum:

NAMM '12 - Roland G-5 VG Stratocaster Demo - YouTube

Note the jazz guitar patch he uses at about 4.20 by the way. It's undeniably an impressive demonstration of what technology can do these days, but I have to say I just don't like it - when I go to a gig, I want to hear a sound from the guitarist that bears some relationship to the instrument and amp he's playing, not a digitally modelled patch, however well done! But that's just me, maybe I'm getting old...

I love Skunk but was not impressed by the sounds he was getting at all. His playing and enthusiasm are great though.

PJ

[Flyin' Brian]

The "jazz" sound he's getting is VERY processed...lots of reverb, delay etc.
I have a Roland GR-55 synth and its sounds are very realistic. I've used an L7 model with a Strat and when I have my friends do a blindfold test between it and my Heritage Sweet 16 they can't tell the difference.

Most of Roland's demo sounds need to be dialed back from the extremes that they present.

Is it the death of guitar? Heck no, it's an expansion.

The GR-55 goes much further into sounds than what Jeff is playing. I often practice with a grand piano setting. You have to play very precisely in order to keep any extraneous noise and glitches out of the sound. The result? My right hand technique has become much cleaner. The synth has a couple of vocal scat singing patches too. Using them makes my improvisation much more vocal sounding and less likely to have "guitarisms" in it because they don't sound good. I think that it's an excellent tool.

[Meggy]

Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian

The "jazz" sound he's getting is VERY processed...lots of reverb, delay etc.
I have a Roland GR-55 synth and its sounds are very realistic. I've used an L7 model with a Strat and when I have my friends do a blindfold test between it and my Heritage Sweet 16 they can't tell the difference.

Most of Roland's demo sounds need to be dialed back from the extremes that they present.

Is it the death of guitar? Heck no, it's an expansion.

The GR-55 goes much further into sounds than what Jeff is playing. I often practice with a grand piano setting. You have to play very precisely in order to keep any extraneous noise and glitches out of the sound. The result? My right hand technique has become much cleaner. The synth has a couple of vocal scat singing patches too. Using them makes my improvisation much more vocal sounding and less likely to have "guitarisms" in it because they don't sound good. I think that it's an excellent tool.

If you can get such a convincing model of a jazz guitar, not to mention all the other, presumably equally as good, models, does that leave any place for the real thing? i.e. your Heritage Sweet 16, or a real L7, for example. I just don't like the idea of going to a gig where the guitarist plays the same guitar all night to get all of his tones. I want to see the roady hand him his acoustic if the song calls for it, or change his Les Paul for a Strat if required. Somehow that just seems more "real" to me. Maybe I am behind the times though...

[oldane]

Hardly the death of anything, but maybe an addition, an option.

For us jazz players, it's a question whether we concentrate on playing music or being sound engineers. For me it's two different roads to go, but others may well deal successfully with both at the same time. I still like a good basic clean tone best, though. To me overprocessed sounds seem to steal attention from the structure of the musics harmonic structure, the melody line etc.

For me, my amp, my speaker cabinet and my Sansamp preamp pedal are tools, the rest are toys. But I'll readily admit that I have more than once been tempted to get those digital gadgets, and I have had fun playing (in the kids play sense) with them for a while, but then invariably they have ended idle in a drawer. It's far too easy to order from the internet these days!

[Flyin' Brian]

Originally Posted by Meggy

If you can get such a convincing model of a jazz guitar, not to mention all the other, presumably equally as good, models, does that leave any place for the real thing? i.e. your Heritage Sweet 16, or a real L7, for example. I just don't like the idea of going to a gig where the guitarist plays the same guitar all night to get all of his tones. I want to see the roady hand him his acoustic if the song calls for it, or change his Les Paul for a Strat if required. Somehow that just seems more "real" to me. Maybe I am behind the times though...

No it doesn't unless you want it to. My Sweet 16 sits for the most part, so does my Strat lately and my Jazzmaster. I have the Roland installed on my Heritage Prospect and use it exclusively. Then again, I never saw any jazz guy have a roadie hand him different guitars except for Metheny.

I get to see The Doobie Brothers a few times a year because my son drums for them. One guy uses a Line 6 Variax for most things because he's called upon to play various open tunings, dropped D, a banjo and electrics and acoustics, sometimes changing in mid song. He does it all by stepping on a button. He changes instruments for the violin and pedal steel. He's happy and so is his tech.

[kris]

All these new sounds are like toys for childrens.
I know it is comfortable to take one guitar for complicated gig.
I like new technology and I like all Roland guitar synth but ...
Steinway is great grand piano and Roland 's are just great synth's.

[SamBooka]

remember when people said... "Fuzz??? pfffft.. why would you want to make your guitar sound like a saxophone???"

[NSJ]

I thought this thread would be about a VST/audio unit/softsynth that you could play on a MIDI keyboard that actually sounds like a guitar.

Now THAT would be something. So far, everything I've heard in that area sounds like shit.

[kris]

Originally Posted by NSJ

I thought this thread would be about a VST/audio unit/softsynth that you could play on a MIDI keyboard that actually sounds like a guitar.

Now THAT would be something. So far, everything I've heard in that area sounds like shit.

Not everything...
I like to play Roland synth. but not every day.

[AmundLauritzen]

Pfff! I'm not throwing out my jazz boxes for such a bad impression of a jazz sound.

They'll never replicate the L-5 sound with their gadgets, and if they do, Wes will turn in his grave.

Give me the old true and tested archtop in tube amp sound any day.

[Bill C]

It's not just the sound, it's the response the player feels from the instrument.

Having said that I can see the advantages of a modelling approach if you need a lot of sounds on tap - say in a band that plays a variety of styles or for producing media music.

[kris]

Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen

Pfff! I'm not throwing out my jazz boxes for such a bad impression of a jazz sound.

They'll never replicate the L-5 sound with their gadgets, and if they do, Wes will turn in his grave.

Give me the old true and tested archtop in tube amp sound any day.

Why Pat Metheny like that staff?

[AlsoRan]

Originally Posted by Meggy

I was alerted to this new Fender/Roland product on another forum:

NAMM '12 - Roland G-5 VG Stratocaster Demo - YouTube

Note the jazz guitar patch he uses at about 4.20 by the way. It's undeniably an impressive demonstration of what technology can do these days, but I have to say I just don't like it - when I go to a gig, I want to hear a sound from the guitarist that bears some relationship to the instrument and amp he's playing, not a digitally modelled patch, however well done! But that's just me, maybe I'm getting old...

Meggy, you may be on to something. Here is a real world experience told to me secondhand.

A good friend of mine has a friend who is an engineer - the type of engineer I don't remember. Well, the engineer got into music and now has a $100,000 studio that allows him to create backing tracks for his wife to sing over. They make religious music CDs.

With his equipment, he can create the entire rhythm section, drums, bass, etc. and even a guitar or piano solos.

He has succeeded in replacing a guitarist and heck, the entire band. By all accounts, his "music" sounds really, really good.

I hope this never carries over to live performances, but who knows what the next generation will favor? It may be more convenient to have guys at a computer keyboard than a guy with a real guitar.

[mr. beaumont]

I love me some Skunk, but there wasn't a single tone in that video that I'd even remotely consider using.

[Pat Clare]

I prefer to let my fingers do the talking. Something like this is good for a studio or free lance popular style guitarist.

[stevedenver]

apart from being on the jazz forum and focus on true jazz sounds....

i loved it-i think its versatile as can be
the opening sound clip was not great-but further on i think it reveals its breadth and some depth

i love the different tunings and only wish i could program my own as well
i like the accoustic sounds-i thought them close enough-and better than any synth types ive ever heard

i wonder if you can ues the roland liek the older-arpegio, different voice for each string,etc??

the processed aspect isnt lost on me ...i hear it in some places..
but

for most rock and pop applications-
its a great tool

its a strat-already super versatile
second -it changes tunings on the fly-not the first to do so but cool
i think it would be great to play in normal tuning and then switch to an open to do a bottle neck solo and then back -led z or pink floyd on the fly-as you choose

third -i thought the tele sound was fine-i recognized it immediately and thought it was a significant change in sound

and then the onboard effects-not bad at all-not studio but good enough to give a 'feel' live-some varied colorings right at hand -

yes these are not essential features-but imho the accoustic and auto tunings are great-as well as tele on the fly-all with trem

and.......
being a gibson guy...
i have more faith in the fender roland product than gibson from what ive heard about the support for the gibson robots, dark fires, and dusk tiger-and i imagine the fender at a lower price (but with limited features as well)

i use different tunings-even on my jazz guitar-but its so cool not to re-tune
and simply choose a song in anohter tuning and be there -easier on the string life too

[Jazzman301]

Just like electronic pianos have not taken the place of standard accoustic pianos. Its neat. But the sounds are all very processed and the jazz patch sounds like something I would expect to heard Sibelius or Finale to play back.

'Mike

[SamBooka]

Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen

Pfff! I'm not throwing out my jazz boxes for such a bad impression of a jazz sound.

They'll never replicate the L-5 sound with their gadgets, and if they do, Wes will turn in his grave.

Give me the old true and tested archtop in tube amp sound any day.

Doesnt sound as good as an L5 BUT sounds better than a strat

[Stevebol]

Skunk is awesome but I'll pass on the technology. If you have to use a drop D, for example, just take minute and retune. Retuning to some kind of open G might take more time.
It really seems like just more technology that young cats don't need.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by SamBooka

Doesnt sound as good as an L5 BUT sounds better than a strat

There's a reason the strat has been such a great seller for more than 50 years.

The L5 and the Strat are very different animals, designed for different purposes. I do like the Strat a lot and I own one. I think it sounds great. And it's maybe the most versatile electric guitar available - much more versatile than an L5, which is a great sounding one-trick-pony (jazz guitar that is). The Strat is rugged and roadworthy and also very ergonomic with the body shape and contours. Simply a good design. For a bread and butter musician (only few can make a living playing jazz) who has to play a great number of different styles, the Strat is often a first choice.

Leo Fender did a really good job with the Strat.

[kris]

Originally Posted by oldane

There's a reason the strat has been such a great seller for more than 50 years.

The L5 and the Strat are very different animals, designed for different purposes. I do like the Strat a lot and I own one. I think it sounds great. And it's maybe the most versatile electric guitar available - much more versatile than an L5, which is a great sounding one-trick-pony (jazz guitar that is). The Strat is rugged and roadworthy and also very ergonomic with the body shape and contours. Simply a good design. For a bread and butter musician (only few can make a living playing jazz) who has to play a great number of different styles, the Strat is often a first choice.

Leo Fender did a really good job with the Strat.

Yes.
Strat is a great guitar.

[NSJ]

A Strat takes 3 hours, 30 minutes TOTAL production time, from the start to finish.


A guitar like an L5 is made along fundamental artisanal principles that have created the greatest fine musical instruments, I'm sure it takes several months to make ONE.

A guitar is just a tool, and an apple is not an orange.

[50Hz]

Personally I really dislike this sort of thing from any perspective but people can like whatever they want...

[Synchro]

I've played around with modeling and always come to the same conclusion, it just doesn't respond like the real thing. Likewise for guitar synths that sound like a synthesizer playing a quite few milliseconds behind a guitar.

I had a modeling amp once as a way of trying different effects. The sounds that worked at home seemed thin and delicate at gig volume. There is bound to be a cost to all of this signal processing and in my personal experience it comes across loud and clear at a gig.

Part of my day job involves operating a Voice Over IP telephone system. In the design and planning of such a system a lot of effort is expended on controlling delay and jitter. The ITU recommends less than 138 ms fixed delay in a phone line.

But that's for telephone conversations which are not the same thing at all as a band playing together in synch. There is a certain amount of delay introduced when a signal is digitized no matter how robust the hardware. IMHO any delay introduced into a signal is only going to serve to erode the quality of the sound and it doesn't take much delay at all to affect the groove.

With that in mind, I don't think we'll ever see modeling take the place of the real thing. The more experience I gain the more I appreciate the gear I have, electric guitars playing through simple amps.

[Pat Clare]

Originally Posted by Synchro

I've played around with modeling and always come to the same conclusion, it just doesn't respond like the real thing. Likewise for guitar synths that sound like a synthesizer playing a quite few milliseconds behind a guitar.

I had a modeling amp once as a way of trying different effects. The sounds that worked at home seemed thin and delicate at gig volume. There is bound to be a cost to all of this signal processing and in my personal experience it comes across loud and clear at a gig.

Part of my day job involves operating a Voice Over IP telephone system. In the design and planning of such a system a lot of effort is expended on controlling delay and jitter. The ITU recommends less than 138 ms fixed delay in a phone line.

But that's for telephone conversations which are not the same thing at all as a band playing together in synch. There is a certain amount of delay introduced when a signal is digitized no matter how robust the hardware. IMHO any delay introduced into a signal is only going to serve to erode the quality of the sound and it doesn't take much delay at all to affect the groove.

With that in mind, I don't think we'll ever see modeling take the place of the real thing. The more experience I gain the more I appreciate the gear I have, electric guitars playing through simple amps.

Great post!!! I've found that I prefer the sound of a guitar much more than the processed sound.

[Synchro]

Originally Posted by Pat Clare

Great post!!! I've found that I prefer the sound of a guitar much more than the processed sound.

Agreed!

[barrymclark]

I think these things are great and certainly neat. I have messed with these things through out the years and will continue to do so.

The only thing I just don't like about these posts is they tend to bring out the flags.

Death to guitar as we know it? Not yet. Synth guitar hasn't had its breakthrough genre where synth guitar defines it. Solid bodies had rock really driving it. Then the distortion/overdrive came. Increasingly heavier types of music really took that and ran. I remember thinking with my old 5150 amp, "WHO WOULD USE THIS MUCH GAIN?!" (my gain knob stayed at 3 on the lead channel) Not a decade later... it was common place to use that much gain and people complaining it isnt enough. I mean.. using a gain pedal in front of a 5150? HOLY CRAP! CAN YOU EVEN HEAR THE NOTE LET ALONE THE CHORD? Well, apparently theyc can.. I just can't. Not my thing.. but I leave them to it.

One day, there may be an emerging genre where the guitarists use guitar modeling like the VG Strat. With Fishman getting into it now... there may be the competition generating where we may see leaps and bounds in guitar modeling development. Never say never.

[SamBooka]

Originally Posted by Synchro

Part of my day job involves operating a Voice Over IP telephone system. In the design and planning of such a system a lot of effort is expended

Know anything about Mitel?