The death of the guitar as we know it?

[Insufferable_Rhythm]

Sorry, forgot that intellectual rigor is something to be frowned upon.

[50Hz]

Originally Posted by Insufferable_Rhythm

Sorry, forgot that intellectual rigor is something to be frowned upon.

But you forgot to explain why that synth guitar sounds so shitty..

[Retroman1969]

Well, back in the early 1980s many thought that the near exclusive use of synthesizers in popular music meant the death of acoustic music as we know it.
And indeed, sales figures for guitars in particular plummeted during that period, making guitar manufacturers nervous about the future.
But 5 or so years later the trend cooled down and the 1990s became a sales boom for guitars. And today, even traditional makers like Martin & Co. are manufacturing juggernauts, and the number of custom archtop makers (niche market or not) is ever expanding.

Perhaps 1000 years in the future, where robots drink beer to recharge their batteries, belch fire and literally shit bricks.... But who can predict that?

[OldGuitarPlayer]

I didn't find that demo to be very impressive. The other problem is, what are you going to do when that technology fails on you at a gig? I certainly would never use that gizmo let alone want one installed in a Strat or even a Telecaster.

I only attempt to play jazz at home for my own amusement but I play live in an electric blues trio, a pop/rock duo (with some midi-tracks) and also a folk/rock band. I can get just about any tone I need from my inexpensive Squier CV50 BSB Telecaster and my Roland Cube 60 (orange tolex model).

The only "effects I ever need are reverb, chorus and sometimes a little overdrive. if I need to tune to "drop" D I can do it in 10 seconds. I can tune to open G in 30 seconds. All those switches and knobs just make thing more confusing.

[AmundLauritzen]

There's just something about the experience of playing an archtop that can't be imitated. It's the shape and feel of the guitar. How it rests and how you grip it compared to a strat or other smaller guitars that look and feel invisible in comparison. The fretboard feels different. When you play a note, you can feel the whole guitar vibrating. It's a very special experience to me, and far more involved than playing any other type of guitar.

"Archtop in a can" just won't ever work for me no matter how good it sounds. I want the whole experience, not just the sound

[jorgemg1984]

I think the opposite is also true - it's as weird playing a strat sounding like an archtop as it is playing an archtop sounding like a strat (although who would really want to do the last option?).

I don't want to be mean but his playing bugged more than the sound. That sounded like jazz lessons from Guitar Player magazine - you don't play jazz because you add a 7 to a triad and you don't play rock because you know the blues scale. I know tons of rock players who claim to play jazz and do stuff like that - and also a few jazzers who turn their distortion on and think they play rock. It's a language and it takes years to mature.

[Synchro]

Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen

There's just something about the experience of playing an archtop that can't be imitated. It's the shape and feel of the guitar. How it rests and how you grip it compared to a strat or other smaller guitars that look and feel invisible in comparison. The fretboard feels different. When you play a note, you can feel the whole guitar vibrating. It's a very special experience to me, and far more involved than playing any other type of guitar.

"Archtop in a can" just won't ever work for me no matter how good it sounds. I want the whole experience, not just the sound

That's pretty much where I'm coming from on this. The feel, the physical feedback of playing a guitar could be synthesized with haptic I imagine but it's never going to be quite the same plus . . . why go to all the bother of artificial sensation when it's simpler to just build the real thing.

Another example comes to mind and that's the changes in telephony over the past 50 years. The sensation of making a phone call is different with modern digital phone systems than it was with purely analog systems. When they first developed telephones they discovered that the user needed to hear a bit of his/ her own voice through the earpiece or they would not sense that they were truly connected. The result is side tone. Now, in the digital era, it's quite possible to have a silent connection with no background noise. They actually build a small amount of artificial background noise into digital phone systems on purpose. This is known as "comfort noise". It's usually not noticed, but there's a lot of ergonomic research in telephony and Bell Labs really led the pack.

Now I believe that some of the advanced ergonomics could be used in building an effective guitar synth but I don't think that it would be worth the expense and synthetic is never the same as the real thing. My own prediction is that 1,000 years from now people will still be playing instruments that use vibrating elements to produce sound. The designs might change, the materials certainly could change but I can't imagine that people will ever lose the appreciation of feeling an instrument as its being played. The feeling of the back of a guitar resonating, the buzz of a wind instrument, the sensation of a drumstick snapping back from a drum head, these all speak to me when I've played, or tried to play, these respective instruments. Then there's the piano. Modern electronic pianos are incredible but the feeling of a nice grand piano is not so easy to synthesize. There's just something about all that steel and wood vibrating away that I love.

[Bill C]

Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen

There's just something about the experience of playing an archtop that can't be imitated. It's the shape and feel of the guitar. How it rests and how you grip it compared to a strat or other smaller guitars that look and feel invisible in comparison. The fretboard feels different. When you play a note, you can feel the whole guitar vibrating. It's a very special experience to me, and far more involved than playing any other type of guitar.

"Archtop in a can" just won't ever work for me no matter how good it sounds. I want the whole experience, not just the sound

+1

[Funkwire]

Originally Posted by Insufferable_Rhythm

Sorry, forgot that intellectual rigor is something to be frowned upon.

Intellectual rigor is fine. Pretension, on the other hand...

...and before you come back and tell me that could apply to me as well (regarding my statement that electronics will never completely supplant the original instruments), I will point out the historical evidence backs up my claim. All you have is an empirical argument that essentially boils down to "never say never".

Get over yourself.

[kris]

I think some jazz guitarist like to play new sounds.I do not think so is good idea to play jazz standards with new technology.
It is ok for "modern" jazz music.
If you use it in good way/I mean no too much/ - it can be creative/like Ralph Towner.../.
Jazz guitar and Strat vg-Roland are completly different instruments.

[aniss1001]

Well it is the death of THAT particular guitar for sure... MAN it sounds awfull :/

[kris]

Originally Posted by aniss1001

Well it is the death of THAT particular guitar for sure... MAN it sounds awfull :/

I know people that think that all electric guitars sounds awfull.
They think that only clasical guitar with nylon strings is realy instrument.

[Insufferable_Rhythm]

EDIT: Never mind.

[mattymel]

Someone else touched upon this...but I feel like synth guitars trying to sound like other guitars is the ultimate waste of technology.

For me the whole point of having a few different guitars is that each one makes me play slightly different. If they didn't than what is the point of owning one? I play different on a strat than a tele, much less a 335 to a archtop. Playing a strat that sounds like a (crappy) archtop is just...stupid. Besides, half the archtop sound is hearing the acoustic aspect. Those "acoustic" synth patches were laughable. I would prefer hearing a piezo PU anyway, which ain't saying much coming from me.

[Rustic]

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

The other thing that makes this guitar kind of stupid is that Line 6 did it (and more) over 5 years ago with the VARIAX. So this is nothing even mildly new.

[Pierrot]

Receipe for a multiple personnality: buy and play a modeling guitar, a modeling amp and a modeling FX all together and then try to ask yourself: who am I?

[Philco]

Originally Posted by Pierrot

Receipe for a multiple personnality: buy and play a modeling guitar, a modeling amp and a modeling FX all together and then try to ask yourself: who am I?

Answer is......ME.

I use modelling amps
1 Amplitube
2 Amp Farm
3 Guitar Rig 5
4 Podfarm 2
5 Eleven
6 TH3
7 Ampeg SVX

All these are plugins for Protools and they all have many amp simulations and FX in them.

I use a line 6 Variax Strat Guitar and have done for 4 years.

It's my job. 5 days a week. Record as many parts with as many different sounds as required for the song.

That's what people use this stuff for.
There's more than a good chance that any electric guitars you hear on pop radio are plugin Amp Sims.
Have been for years.
(this is now your chance to say....."that's why it all sound like crap" )

This modelling technology is OLD.
The first Guitar Amp Sim plug for ProTools was by Line 6 called Amp Farm.

THAT WAS OVER 13 YEARS AGO PEOPLE!!!!!

And that's how long I and thousands of others have been using them for.

Anyway the ..... modelling Amps and Guitars did not replace my real guitar or amp.
For the sound I'm after as a aspiring Jazz player I just plug my Gibson into my Fender Deluxe Reverb and there it is.

The world is still rotating on it's axis.
People still buy real guitars.
People still make real amps.

The only real danger anyone ever faced was when Holdworth and Metheney were playing guitar synths.
There was a very real threat of total crapdom.
And there was foul stench in the air.
Thankfully they both came to their senses.

Anyone for a guitar flute solo?
Oh c'mon.

[Marto]

I like synths for what they are. But I think when people try to show that a synth guitar can accurately replicate other classic guitar sounds or other instruments all they show is that there is still a long way to go.
The thing I don't like about synths is that they don't respond to changes in attack like a real guitar would.

I like the new sounds you can create with synths though, I really think that is the strength of a synthesizer.

[kris]

ALLAN HOLDSWORTH announced 2012 live performances:

DWEEZIL ZAPPA with special guest ALLAN HOLDSWORTH
February 14 - Anaheim, CA (House Of Blues)
February 19 - Agoura Hill, CA (Canyon Club)

ALLAN HOLDSWORTH CARVIN SOLO GUITAR CLINICS
February 11 (2pm) - Hollywood, CA (Carvin Hollywood)
February 18 (2pm) - San Diego, CA (Carvin San Diego)
February 25 (2pm) - Santa Ana, CA (Carvin Santa Ana)
For more information: CarvinWorld.com - Guitars, Amplifiers & Pro Audio

CHAD WACKERMAN BAND
featuring ALLAN HOLDSWORTH with Jimmy Johnson - bass; Jim Cox - keyboards
Allan performing at Chad Wackerman CD launch of
"Dreams, Nightmares and Improvisations"

February 16 - Studio City, Los Angeles, CA (Baked Potato)
February 17 - Studio City, Los Angeles, CA (Baked Potato)
For more information: C h a d W a c k e r m a n /

AH USA TOUR 2012 - Chapter One
ALLAN HOLDSWORTH BAND
with
Allan Holdsworth - guitar
Jimmy Haslip - bass
Virgil Donati - drums*

March 11 - Sellersville, PA (Sellersville Theater) w/Marbin
March 12 - Annapolis, MD (Ram's Head Tavern w/Marbin
March 14 - Newton, NJ (The Newton Theater) w/Marbin
March 15 - New York, NY (The Iridium)
March 16 - New York, NY (The Iridium)
March 17 - New York, NY (The Iridium)
March 18 - Peekskill, NY (U-Music School) w/Marbin
March 20 - Teaneck, NJ (Mexicali Live) w/Marbin
March 21 - Northampton, MA (The Iron Horse) w/Marbin
March 22 - Boston, MA (Johnny D's) w/Marbin
March 23 - Norfolk, CT (The Infinity Hall) w/Marbin
March 24 - Schenectady, NY (The Van Dyck) w/Marbin
March 26 - Toronto, Ontario, Canada (Cosmo Music)
Virgil Donati drum clinic + Jimmy Haslip drum clinic
March 27 - Toronto, Ontario, Canada (Cosmo Music) w/Marbin
March 28 - Buffalo, NY (The Tralf Music Hall) w/Marbin
March 29 - Cleveland, OH (The Winchester Music Hall) w/Marbin
March 30 - Dayton, OH (Gilly's Jazz) w/Marbin
March 31 - Detroit, MI (The Jazz Cafe) w/Marbin
April 1 - Chicago, IL (Martyr's) w/Marbin
April 3 - Milwaukee, WI (The Shank Hall) w/Marbin
April 22 - San Juan Capistrano, CA (The Coach House)

AH EUROPEAN TOUR 2012 - CHAPTER ONE
ALLAN HOLDSWORTH BAND
with
Allan Holdsworth - guitar
Jimmy Haslip - bass
Virgil Donati - drums*

May 4 - Berlin, Germany (Quasimodo) w/Jeff Aug
May 5 - Halle, Germany (Objekt5) w/Jeff Aug
May 6 - Hamburg, Germany (Fabrik) w/Jeff Aug
May 7 - Hannover, Germany (venue TBA) w/Jeff Aug
May 10 - Trondheim, Norway (Trondheim Jazz Festival)
May 12 - Stavanger, Norway (Mai Jazz Festival)
May 15 - Kassel, Germany (Schlachthof) w/Jeff Aug
May 16 - Amstelveen, Netherlands (P60) w/Jeff Aug
May 17 - Leverkusen, Germany (Scala) w/Jeff Aug
May 18 - Tilburg, Netherlands (Paradox) w/Jeff Aug
May 19 - Paris, France (Sunset Sunside Jazz Club) w/Jeff Aug
May 20 - Paris, France (Sunset Sunside Jazz Club) w/Jeff Aug
May 21 - Karlsruhe, Germany (Tollhaus) w/Jeff Aug
May 22 - Lugano, Sitzerland (Virgil Donati clinic with AH Band, venue TBA)
May 23 - Milano, Italy (La Salumeria della Musica) w/Jeff Aug & Boris Savoldelli
May 24 - Basel, Switzerland (Grand Casino) w/Jeff Aug
May 25 - Zurich, Switzerland (Jazz Klub Moods) w/Jeff Aug

For more info on Allan Holdsworth, please visit his website:
The Real Allan Holdsworth.com

[oldane]

Originally Posted by Pierrot

buy and play a modeling guitar, a modeling amp and a modeling FX all together and then try to ask yourself: who am I?

Lester Young was once asked, if he wasn't proud having all those saxophonists around sounding just like him. He answered: "If they are all like me, then who am I?".

[Flyin' Brian]

Originally Posted by Pierrot

Receipe for a multiple personnality: buy and play a modeling guitar, a modeling amp and a modeling FX all together and then try to ask yourself: who am I?

Oh PLEASE!

I own a Roland synth. I own a Strat, a Jazzmaster. I own a Heritage Sweet 16, a Heritage Prospect. I am also quite comfortably aware of who I am.

One of the things I have learned belong to a few musician sites, is that many musicians are some of the most closed minded, dogmatic people I have ever met. Actually I need to clarify that. Musicians seem to be of two extremes; the total free spirits on one hand and on the other ones who have such closed minds that it's a wonder they can make the decision to get out of bed in the morning, with a few in the middle.

I remember as a kid hearing of the great "controversy" when Ampeg decided to put reverb in an amp. Well now anybody KNEW that you couldn't POSSIBLY play legitimate jazz guitar by slopping it up with REVERB. What the hell was Ampeg thinking?

“Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.” ~ John F. Kennedy

[kris]

Midi guitars...great for education.
I think a lot of programs /PG music/ use midi guitars in jazz guitar courses...i.e.
Jazz Guitar Masterclass with Oliver Gannon.

[Pierrot]

He he he, after reading some reactions there, I think I'd have better done adding the "Just kidding" thing.

It was just a joke, really, guys, please don't take it too seriously.

I perfectly know that modelling is a not-so-young technology, that planets will keep dancing despite the fact we buy or not that kind of stuff, that genius like Metheny or Holdsworth (to name only two) use or have used it very efficiently, and that one can be a great and very unique jazz, or for that matter, folk, rock or whatever, guitarist and still like to investigate new paths with newer stuff...


To say it in a different manner... let's keep our minds opened to humour, too...


Peace, brothers

[kris]

Originally Posted by Pierrot

He he he, after reading some reactions there, I think I'd have better done adding the "Just kidding" thing.

It was just a joke, really, guys, please don't take it too seriously.

I perfectly know that modelling is a not-so-young technology, that planets will keep dancing despite the fact we buy or not that kind of stuff, that genius like Metheny or Holdsworth (to name only two) use or have used it very efficiently, and that one can be a great and very unique jazz, or for that matter, folk, rock or whatever, guitarist and still like to investigate new paths with newer stuff...


To say it in a different manner... let's keep our minds opened to humour, too...


Peace, brothers

[stevedenver]

Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian

Oh PLEASE!

I own a Roland synth. I own a Strat, a Jazzmaster. I own a Heritage Sweet 16, a Heritage Prospect. I am also quite comfortably aware of who I am.

One of the things I have learned belong to a few musician sites, is that many musicians are some of the most closed minded, dogmatic people I have ever met. Actually I need to clarify that. Musicians seem to be of two extremes; the total free spirits on one hand and on the other ones who have such closed minds that it's a wonder they can make the decision to get out of bed in the morning, with a few in the middle.

I remember as a kid hearing of the great "controversy" when Ampeg decided to put reverb in an amp. Well now anybody KNEW that you couldn't POSSIBLY play legitimate jazz guitar by slopping it up with REVERB. What the hell was Ampeg thinking?

“Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.” ~ John F. Kennedy

i have had the same observation
i always think -you have to try something
you cant just decide its not good before you actually give it a go
only then do you have a first hand knowledge and a founded opinion

[mattymel]

funny, personally metheny is the only person ive EVER heard use a synth that i didnt want to tar and feather. to each his own i guess. i think its that he used one sound that was HIS sound.

[HighSpeedSpoon]

Originally Posted by Meggy

... But what if they do eventually manage to make something that genuinely can do that (make jazz guitars obsolete)? - that still scares me a bit. A kid learning might get such a setup (the price could come down over time), and then say he decides he's going to get into a bit of '50 jazz for example. Is he going to go out and buy an archtop and nice jazz amp? I don't think he would...

Hi Meggy. - Sorry but I still don't understand your concern. I get the feeling that you care more about the tool with which the music is made than with the music itself. Mind you, I myself have come back to tubes, I still love my archtop, and I have no interest in sound engineering other than to self-record for the purpose of improving my thus far pitiful chops.

But tools are tools and musicians are musicians. Musicians figure out new ways to use tools at their disposal. Can you imagine where we'd be if people said "Hey, that Fender isn't like a hi-fi amp" and just walked away? I don't know if products like this Roland thing will ever sound like an L5, but like others have said, I don't like to bet against the future: It's like betting that people will never fly in space or carry 10,000 tunes and a phone in their pocket. If these things ever sound like an L5 (or whatever), then more people will be able to sound like they are playing L5s - O happy day! - and you and I can still play our beautiful jazz boxes if we want to. If they don't get to L5 territory, then maybe it will sound like something else equally inspiring: It's hard to rule that out, and harder still to stop change.

But I'll tell you what I am scared of though - whether I should be or not: Computers that can win at Jeopardy and someday might be able to improvise beautifully. The Jeopardy computer replaced the player; it wasn't a new tool. But the Roland thing is not even on my radar.

Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen

There's just something about the experience of playing an archtop that can't be imitated. It's the shape and feel of the guitar. How it rests and how you grip it compared to a strat or other smaller guitars that look and feel invisible in comparison. The fretboard feels different. When you play a note, you can feel the whole guitar vibrating. It's a very special experience to me, and far more involved than playing any other type of guitar.

"Archtop in a can" just won't ever work for me no matter how good it sounds. I want the whole experience, not just the sound [IMG]file:///C:/Users/Mike/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]

FWIW I can dig this Amund. This is a very easy POV to understand.

[cosmic gumbo]

The ol' Skunkster has been on the Roland payroll for over 20 years.

YouTube Video

[mattymel]

the 90s???!!! looks like he is stuck in 1974. yeah, sounds just like the London Phil Skunk. lay off the other skunk if you think that sounded good.
PS...enjoy the paycheck.

[Space Pickle]

ROFL, "we are in the 90's, ladies and gentlemen".

The future is NOW people!