Do Solid State Amps sound "scruffy" to you?

[AlsoRan]

I recently determined why some Jazz guitar recordings bothered me. All of them used solid state amps. There is a certain "scruffy" sound that I don't like. That scruffiness puts a little "hair" on the pick stroke, similar to the sound of a needle as it begins on a vinyl record. It quite frankly affects me like nails on a chalkboard - but to a much smaller degree.

Is it just me or is their some vailidity to my claim?

[JakeAcci]

I don't know man, I went solid state a few years ago and now I hate playing (jazz) through tubes...

[uncletele]

I think it really depends on amp settings, especially low mids. I use a Tech 21 Trademark 60, and I know what you mean if the mids(growl on this amp)are set too high. Also, you really can't use a low-watt tube amp(under 15 watts) and expect good cleans needed for jazz in a live situation. On the old recordings, many guys were using Fender blackface or silverface Twin Reverb amps which are 80-100 watts with pleny of clean headroom. I use the Trademark 60 because it stays clean at live volumes and it is a nice, small, lightweight amp(unlike a Twin or JC-120). There are plenty of really great solid state jazz amps now available that will give you great sound without the "hair". My amp is not a "classic" jazz amp, but I also play a good amount of blues so I need the versatility.

[mr. beaumont]

Which recordings?

I think tube amps can sound "scruffy." A good solid state amp is nothing but clean and pristine...they'll pry my henriksen from my cold, dead hands.

[AlsoRan]

Originally Posted by uncletele

I think it really depends on amp settings, especially low mids. I use a Tech 21 Trademark 60, and I know what you mean if the mids(growl on this amp)are set too high. Also, you really can't use a low-watt tube amp(under 15 watts) and expect good cleans needed for jazz in a live situation. On the old recordings, many guys were using Fender blackface or silverface Twin Reverb amps which are 80-100 watts with pleny of clean headroom. I use the Trademark 60 because it stays clean at live volumes and it is a nice, small, lightweight amp(unlike a Twin or JC-120). There are plenty of really great solid state jazz amps now available that will give you great sound without the "hair". My amp is not a "classic" jazz amp, but I also play a good amount of blues so I need the versatility.

Now you lead me to another question. Are current models of solid state amps, like Polytones and Roland JCs, the same as those used by the Jazz Guitar Masters oh so many years ago? Or, has the technology advanced to where they are not the same? I know recording technology has advanced.

Thanks.

[mr. beaumont]

When was "oh so long ago?"

Solid state didn't become common in jazz until the 70's.

And i'd still like to know specifically what you were listening to...

[AlsoRan]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

When was "oh so long ago?"

Solid state didn't become common in jazz until the 70's.

And i'd still like to know specifically what you were listening to...

OK, I will find a recording when I get home.

I seem to remember first noticing it on a Kenny Burrell recording. As opposed to a Grant Green recording, say "Standards," in which the tone sounded like a bell.

But now you guys have got me thinking now, because Tal Farlow's tone sounded a little scruffy in some of his recordings as well, and I believe he Fenders.

Now I am really going to have to dig in my collection and give a close listen. Maybe it is more a matter of wattage and the amp starting to put hair on the tone dut to distortion creeping in.

[mr. beaumont]

Hmmm...yeah, I'm betting it'ss a little distortion creeping in, either on the amp or in the recording itself.

Kenny would have been using tube amps on a lot of his recordings.

Definitely give some examples later.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

I seem to remember first noticing it on a Kenny Burrell recording. As opposed to a Grant Green recording, say "Standards," in which the tone sounded like a bell.

I have seen Kenny Burrell live on a couple of occations. Each time he used a Fender Twin Reverb. I don't know what he has used on record dates, but why should it be different.

[Buster Loaf]

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

There is a certain "scruffy" sound that I don't like. That scruffiness puts a little "hair" on the pick stroke, similar to the sound of a needle as it begins on a vinyl record. It quite frankly affects me like nails on a chalkboard - but to a much smaller degree.

Is it just me or is their some vailidity to my claim?

You think you might be delusional?

[AlsoRan]

Originally Posted by Buster Loaf

You think you might be delusional?

I may be.

But, whenever I have heard someone on a polytone amp, I could tell immediately. I also can identify a certain sound with the Mesa Boogie's Triple Rectifier's distortion. but I digress.

With the Polytone, the "scratch" of the pick seems audible to me. It does not sound like a clear, clean strike or a click.

I can't wait to get home and listen to my collection. I will either give you a list, or jump out a window before complete madness and delusion overtakes me.

[Buster Loaf]

trust your ears. don't jump!

[AlsoRan]

Well, I am on the window ledge.

[mr. beaumont]

I still need to hear these examples...I mean, you say you hear it on a kenny burrell record, and he's probably using a tube amp!

[aniss1001]

Nah! Wouldn't say they sound "scruffy" (whatever that means hehe). I do prefer the sound of a tube though. It simply sounds fuller, richer or dirtier (not sure how to describe it) which may or may not be what you want in an amp. Some SS amps sound great too....

[wizard3739]

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

I recently determined why some Jazz guitar recordings bothered me. All of them used solid state amps. There is a certain "scruffy" sound that I don't like.

Sorry AlsoRan, I can't really agree with this comment on solid state amps. I have used many, many different amps over the past 60 years. I have used Fender amps, many different models, Gibson amps, Benson amps and many others before settling on the Polytone amps in the 70's because they were so much cleaner and warmer than any of the other amps. (especially for jazz tone). A few years ago, I moved on to an Acoustic Image/Raezers Edge combination that I use now. Like Mr. B, I wouldn't consider any other amps for jazz at this time. IMHO, the pricey solid state amps offer the best jazz guitar sound money can buy at this time.

wiz

[mattymel]

the only amps i WONT use are roland. just don't work for ME. in a word they just sound HARSH for the way i play.

what you have "heard" on records depends on what RECORDS you are talking about. pretty much every blue note record from the 60s is using a an old 50s era fender tweed deluxe (burrell, GG, GB etc...). tweed amps are the sleepers of the jazz amp. but unfortunately they are very $$$ these days. i played a old baseman recently and wanted to cry. $8K. most beautiful cleans i have ever heard. WARM like a blanket.

i like tubes, but i def would be fine using a polytone, haven't had much opportunity to play a henrickson yet. but I've heard them and they seem polytonish. i hear they have more control of the EQ which might be nice.

with amps i feel like there is a unknowable variable that you can never predict until you actually plug YOUR guitar in. I've been pleasantly surprised by just about everything at some point or another. everything except ROLANDS...

[jorgemg1984]

Although you can generalize some characteristics of both tube amps and solid state amps in both cases you have too much diversity and it's hard to say "solid state" never sounds good... A lot of guys gig with solid state amps and get great sounds of them (and I have played solid state amps that sound very different from each other - a Mesa Boogie is not a Fender even if both are tubes)

At this moment I just own solid state amps actually althogh I do plan on a custom tube amp made to my specs - tubes are still superior to me.

Curious to see what records you mention.

[AlsoRan]

All Right.

I revisited my older recordings i.e. Kenny Burrell's Moten Swing, Pat Martino's Road Song, Tal Farlow's I Remember You, and certain songs on Jim Raney Visits Paris were all tube amps, as you suspected Mr. B. I guess the scruffiness I was hearing there was with some light palm muting that seemed to be going on during faster runs as well as some string muting on chord strokes (especially octaves, in which that middle string may be muted).

I must have mistakenly started identifying the scruffiness or scratchiness of the pick attack with SS amps because of all the cheaper ones I played on when I was amp searching.

Also, the darker, drier tones that guys like Jim Hall (who I love) who I noticed played SS and even modern Kenny Burrell who I now also love, possible confused me as well.

I heard some demos of henricksons and polytones and they were pretty darn nice. Even the Fender Jazz Ultralight. For the record, I have a Fender Deluxe Reverb which can border on syrupy depending on where the reverb is set.

Anyway, I stand corrected and red-faced. I will PM Mr. B tomorrow to try and get the thread removed. I will pay more attention to the gear of people with tones that don't appeal to me before I draw conclusions.

[mattymel]

Depending on what Jim Hall recording you are talking
about, that's likely tube as well. Jim used a awesome old Gibson GA50 though the 60s. Starting dabbling in SS during the 70s.

[Pierrot]

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

All Right.

I revisited my older recordings i.e. Kenny Burrell's Moten Swing, Pat Martino's Road Song, Tal Farlow's I Remember You, and certain songs on Jim Raney Visits Paris were all tube amps, as you suspected Mr. B. I guess the scruffiness I was hearing there was with some light palm muting that seemed to be going on during faster runs as well as some string muting on chord strokes (especially octaves, in which that middle string may be muted).

I must have mistakenly started identifying the scruffiness or scratchiness of the pick attack with SS amps because of all the cheaper ones I played on when I was amp searching.

Also, the darker, drier tones that guys like Jim Hall (who I love) who I noticed played SS and even modern Kenny Burrell who I now also love, possible confused me as well.

I heard some demos of henricksons and polytones and they were pretty darn nice. Even the Fender Jazz Ultralight. For the record, I have a Fender Deluxe Reverb which can border on syrupy depending on where the reverb is set.

Anyway, I stand corrected and red-faced. I will PM Mr. B tomorrow to try and get the thread removed. I will pay more attention to the gear of people with tones that don't appeal to me before I draw conclusions.

Bah, don't worry! We (humans) all make mistakes sometimes. I'd say...hundreds per day.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

I will PM Mr. B tomorrow to try and get the thread removed.

IMO no need to do that. In the course of the thread lots of useful information has been passed and it would be a shame just to trash that. No need to be ashamed either.

"There is no such thing as studpid questions, only stupid answers."

[Little Jay]

It's ongoing discussion: solid state vs tube (and I like participating ). But it's all about the design and quality of the parts used: a well-designed SS-amp sounds better than a poor designed tube amp I think. I think ss-amps have gotten a bad name because especially in the ss-segment many manufacturers jumped in and cut costs with hasty designs, cheap speakers and underpowered transformers, scrap-wood cabinets and so on.

I have a little MosFet amp (made by Session) that does everyting a tube amp does and it does the weight-thing even a lot better ;-)

Here's some nice reading about tubes vs solid state and amps in general:
http://www.award-session.com/pdfs/GEAR_TALK_1.pdf

[Hurricane Ramon]

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

I recently determined why some Jazz guitar recordings bothered me. All of them used solid state amps. There is a certain "scruffy" sound that I don't like. That scruffiness puts a little "hair" on the pick stroke, similar to the sound of a needle as it begins on a vinyl record. It quite frankly affects me like nails on a chalkboard - but to a much smaller degree.

Is it just me or is their some vailidity to my claim?

===============================================

It's just you .

When a recording is done many variables contribute to the end product .

All recordings I have heard from say George Benson are on ss amps ? Talk about clean tones on a ss amp !

My Polytone is a winner , clean - warm - crunchy - fuzzy when I want it to be . Sure there are better amps around than my vintage Polytone but for gigging it's clean as can be when I want that too , in fact so clean that on my third channel ( yep mine has three ) I run a Shure HIZ mic into it . It plays well that way on solo shows and it's light as a feather too to haul around with it's X 2 12"/8" speaker cabs .

I own tube as well and this ss amp competes quite well with it and it's more versatile and as I mentioned very light in weight compared to the tube and the tube has no mike input .

MY Gibson Skyklark 15 watter I love too and the ss Poly still competes with it tone wise as well .

My Gretsch vintage 40's Electromatic is a wild child tone beast for Blues and Jazz and kills when I put a Shure 520D bullet mike to it and blow harp , and again the Polytone can keep up with any of those tubes I have .

There is a difference no doubt but it's not a bad one in my book , in fact I like the difference .

There's been many a time the ss was mistaken for a tube too by tube afisionados too .

Easy Man And Good Playing :

Hurricane Ramon

[Meggy]

I am kind of interested in what you are hearing that you don't like Also Ran - I wonder if you could name a couple of recordings where the offending scruffyness is happening? I tend to think if you are hearing something you don't like, then that is real for you, whether it bothers anyone else or not. Just intrigued, cheers!

[jorgemg1984]

I think the SS fame also comes a lot from rock / blues guys that like that slightly compressend / crunch / harmonically rich sound that clean all the way SS amps don't give.

I would swear all Hall's recording were made with tube amps. He started gigging with SS but I doubt he records wih them...

[mattymel]

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

I would swear all Hall's recording were made with tube amps. He started gigging with SS but I doubt he records wih them...

+1.

I associate all the classic GB recordings with big Fender amps, twins and Supers from what i have heard of his olden setup. i think lately he will use SS but any pre80s footage i see its usually a twin.

[AlsoRan]

Originally Posted by Meggy

I am kind of interested in what you are hearing that you don't like Also Ran - I wonder if you could name a couple of recordings where the offending scruffyness is happening? I tend to think if you are hearing something you don't like, then that is real for you, whether it bothers anyone else or not. Just intrigued, cheers!

Meggy,

I heard some Jazz CDs a couple of years ago when I first started to collect Jazz Guitar songs from the Masters and found that some sounded muffled to my ears.

I have to relent and say that while I can still hear a little of that in say, Tal Farlow's early stuff, it does not sound nearly as pervasive now as it did then.

I did not think this one through.

Like one of the forum member's stated, I was deluded. Now its got me rethinking some of the other opinions I held as fact.

Take Care.

[AlsoRan]

Originally Posted by Little Jay

It's ongoing discussion: solid state vs tube (and I like participating ). But it's all about the design and quality of the parts used: a well-designed SS-amp sounds better than a poor designed tube amp I think. I think ss-amps have gotten a bad name because especially in the ss-segment many manufacturers jumped in and cut costs with hasty designs, cheap speakers and underpowered transformers, scrap-wood cabinets and so on.

I have a little MosFet amp (made by Session) that does everyting a tube amp does and it does the weight-thing even a lot better ;-)

Here's some nice reading about tubes vs solid state and amps in general:
http://www.award-session.com/pdfs/GEAR_TALK_1.pdf

Piggybacking on what you said, I went through around $700.00 of SS amps when I first started playing. They were relatively cheap and I got what I paid for.

I have changed my position on SS amps now.

To quote a line in a movie I saw, " I never knew it could be like this!"

[mr. beaumont]

Hey, you learned something--no need to delete the thread I think--we all make mistakes and false assumptions from time to time, and certainly nothing got ugly here...