Arch-top bridge experiment

[kris]

I did custom bridge for my arch-top jazz box.
Rosewood base and ebony compesated top.
I like the sound...

[mr. beaumont]

So let's talk comparisons then...what do you hear in an all ebony bridge? How about all rosewood? What traits does your hybrid bridge carry over?

[Help!I'maRock!]

i've been wondering about something like this. like, would the Sadowsky compensated bridge make much of a difference on an Ibanez Artcore?

[kris]

The sound is a little warmer than from all ebony bridge.
Sustain is a little better becuse of ebony top.
so... this is my impression.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Help!I'maRock!

i've been wondering about something like this. like, would the Sadowsky compensated bridge make much of a difference on an Ibanez Artcore?

It'll sound worse if it's not fitted well to the top of your guitar.

I'm guessing the Ibanez wood bridge is already compensated anyway...hardly anybody makes an archtop bridge with a straight angled bridge anymore...

[kris]

Originally Posted by Help!I'maRock!

i've been wondering about something like this. like, would the Sadowsky compensated bridge make much of a difference on an Ibanez Artcore?

Fitting the base to the guitar is most imoprtant.
I did myself ebony top with compesation for 13' Thomastic flatwound strings.
I did exactly copy of ABR-1 for exelent tuning.
I do not know what bridge is on Ibanez Artcore...

[Tom Karol]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

...hardly anybody makes an archtop bridge with a straight angled bridge anymore...

Eastman does. My new AR403 has one - intonation is excellent (with roundwound 12's). But here is a picture of a much more expensive AR805 (not mine) I found on the web, so it's not just on the new lower priced models.

I once had a '66 L4-C. The guy at the shop carved a bone saddle for me to replace the rosewood one. He gave me a TOM saddle to set the intonation on and then carved the new one to match. It looked wonderful and made the guitar louder, but in retrospect it sounded too hard and bright. I was using .011-.050 Chromes on it it; maybe if I had used 12's or even 13's ... Anyway, it's long gone!

[MjBobolink]

The Ibanez Artcores with wooden bridges are angled but not compensated for individual strings--mine looks like the one in the Eastman photo, above. I just had my AK95 set up and the intonation is really good, but it's not perfect. Someday I might like to try a wooden compensated bridge.

Take care,
---Mike

[kris]

The bridge is most important thing in the guitar...and fitting it to the top of the guitar ofcourse.
If it made with compesation from good wood you will hear perfect intonation.
I tried different bridges with different saddles on my arch-top/D'Aquisto copy with floating humbucer/.
I think for my guitar the best is wooden bridge/actual rosewood with ebony top/.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

...hardly anybody makes an archtop bridge with a straight angled bridge anymore...

Oh, but many (most?) do. Bob Bendetto for one. I his book, he advocates the slanted but straight bridge saddle and he claims that a compensated bridge actually makes the intontion worse than a straight one. I don't agree with him, at least with my setup, but some conpensated bridges are actually overcompensated and it that case it may of course well be worse than no compensation. I have three guitars which came with straight bridges and I have replaced them all with compensated saddles (but kept the bases which all were well fitted).

Over the years I have done quite a bit of bridge swapping. As for ebony versus rosewood, it's my experience that an ebony bridge sounds a bit clearer and has a bit better sustain than a rosewood bridge which is more woody. For sound, ebony can be said to be between a rosewood bridge and a metal tunomatic, though closer to rosewood than to metal. However, that is just a general tendency. I real life, I have had a particular rosewood bridge that sounded clearer than a particular ebony bridge, so I figure it also depends on the piece of wood used, the mass of the bridge etc. A more consistent experience of mine is that a more massive bridge tends to dampen high frequencies a little, so if one wants the guitar to sound a bit darker, one can make a fatter bridge saddle - and vice versa if one wants the sound a bit brighter. But again, there are differencies between particular pieces of wood, so only an actual trial on the instrument will show if it worked out as intended. Luckily, bridges are not the most expensive part of an archtop, so there should be room for a some trial-and-error.

[kris]

Originally Posted by oldane

Oh, but many (most?) do. Bob Bendetto for one. I his book, he advocates the slanted but straight bridge saddle and he claims that a compensated bridge actually makes the intontion worse than a straight one. I don't agree with him, at least with my setup, but some conpensated bridges are actually overcompensated and it that case it may of course well be worse than no compensation. I have three guitars which came with straight bridges and I have replaced them all with compensated saddles (but kept the bases which all were well fitted).

Over the years I have done quite a bit of bridge swapping. As for ebony versus rosewood, it's my experience that an ebony bridge sounds a bit clearer and has a bit better sustain than a rosewood bridge which is more woody. For sound, ebony can be said to be between a rosewood bridge and a metal tunomatic, though closer to rosewood than to metal. However, that is just a general tendency. I real life, I have had a particular rosewood bridge that sounded clearer than a particular ebony bridge, so I figure it also depends on the piece of wood used, the mass of the bridge etc. A more consistent experience of mine is that a more massive bridge tends to dampen high frequencies a little, so if one wants the guitar to sound a bit darker, one can make a fatter bridge saddle - and vice versa if one wants the sound a bit brighter. But again, there are differencies between particular pieces of wood, so only an actual trial on the instrument will show if it worked out as intended. Luckily, bridges are not the most expensive part of an archtop, so there should be room for a some trial-and-error.

You have big expierience.Thank you.
My actual bridge has fatter ebony saddle and base-rosewood not so fat.
I think sound is nice.
I worked hard on this bridge..:-)

[PTChristopher]

[kris] >>> I think sound is nice.
>>>I worked hard on this bridge..:-)

Congratulations on your project. Nice to hear that it worked out so well.

>>> If [the bridge is] made with compesation from good wood you will hear perfect intonation.

Well, not perfect. Bridge compensation is certainly the most important adjustment for improved intonation, but there are still imperfections in a guitar.

[oldane] >>> [Benedetto] advocates the slanted but straight bridge saddle and he claims that a compensated bridge actually makes the intontion worse than a straight one.

A straight bridge can be very close to optimal for some string sets with a wound G - and it s a very common and successful saddle configuration.

But each string has its own specific optimum compensation, and these optimum compensations do not exactly follow a straight line on any string set I have ever seen.

All in my opinion.

[kris]

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

[kris] >>> I think sound is nice.
>>>I worked hard on this bridge..:-)

Congratulations on your project. Nice to hear that it worked out so well.

>>> If [the bridge is] made with compesation from good wood you will hear perfect intonation.

Well, not perfect. Bridge compensation is certainly the most important adjustment for improved intonation, but there are still imperfections in a guitar.

[oldane] >>> [Benedetto] advocates the slanted but straight bridge saddle and he claims that a compensated bridge actually makes the intontion worse than a straight one.

A straight bridge can be very close to optimal for some string sets with a wound G - and it s a very common and successful saddle configuration.

But each string has its own specific optimum compensation, and these optimum compensations do not exactly follow a straight line on any string set I have ever seen.

All in my opinion.

My bridge works exelent with 13" Thomastic Flatwound.
I did it special for these strings.
My be it work also with 12" or 11"...
I did short recording with ne bridge.Guitar: not expesive korean copy of D'Aquisto ...D'Aspiranta/ Peerless factory/.

[PTChristopher]

Hi Kris,

The optimum compensation will be slightly different as strings age, and will be slightly different for one set of T-I JS113 strings vs. another set of T-I JS113 strings.

In my opinion, the Sadowsky bridges do a great job of setting the sort of typical offsets that will work very well with almost all string sets.

A straight Benedetto (and MANY others) bridge is so close, for a reasonably heavy wound G string set, that imperfections are no worse than the other uncompensated contributors to imperfect intonation.

On the other hand, for very light strings and a plain G, it is my opinion that a straight/slanted bridge will not work well for most players.

If someone used a tune-o-matic bridge to find the "perfect" setup for their guitar, and I saw anything that was notably different from a typical compensation pattern, I'd go find (and maybe fix) what was causing this odd compensation pattern rather than memorializing it in a wooden bridge. If you do hundreds (and hundreds,...) of setups, you really get tuned in to the common patterns for bridge compensation.

But that is only my opinion and preference.

[kris]

tune-o-matic bridge is for me just a pattern for set up...for wooden bridge.

[PTChristopher]

OK, and I believe that I understand that very clearly.

In my opinion, a web forum is also to get into the concepts a little.

Sooooo,...

100% clear that your method gave you great results with which you are very happy. And I can definitely share your enjoyment of making your own equipment. I suspect that you will play and sound better, so your audience is the ultimate beneficiary. Way to go.

The concept of the tune-o-matic as a pattern for a wooden bridge is fine. It captures the best compensation for a given specific set of steel wires at a very specific moment in their life, pressed to the frets by a specific player/tech in a specific mood. Maybe the guitar is laying on a bench, maybe the tech presses differently when staring at a tuner vs. playing music. Maybe the phone rings while doing the B string, maybe you ground your fingertip that morning restoring your fret-end nippers on the bench grinder,... Or maybe the t-o-m setup is done by a dedicated and knowledgeable player who has his own set of potential distractions.

Then this pattern is transferred to a wooden bridge and set upon an unsuspecting world as the IDEAL bridge for that guitar and string set.

In my opinion/experience, this exercise can accidentally capture any existing anomalies in the conditions used to set up the t-o-m bridge.

In my opinion, it is far better to also lend a conceptually sound and experienced eye to the final compensation used in the wooden bridge, and to understand and deal with anything wacky in the t-o-m pattern before transferring it to wood.

Chris

[oldane]

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

In my opinion, the Sadowsky bridges do a great job of setting the sort of typical offsets that will work very well with almost all string sets.

+1. I use them myself. They work well and look prettier than if I had cut it myself.

[kris]

Originally Posted by oldane

+1. I use them myself. They work well and look prettier than if I had cut it myself.

Sadowsky made great ebony compensated saddles for arch-tops.
I think all his arch-top guitars has set of it/ one for plain 3rd string and one for wound/.Looks realy professional.

[pingu]

A straight bridge can be very close to optimal for some string sets with a wound G - and it s a very common and successful saddle configuration.

Yeah mine is straight (13 flats) and the intonation is pretty good
ie the guit plays in tune all over the neck

[kris]

Originally Posted by pingu

Yeah mine is straight (13 flats) and the intonation is pretty good
ie the guit plays in tune all over the neck

What guitar you play?

[Richard-H]

Does anybody have any experience with GraphTech bridge saddles in a Tune-o-Matic bridge? Any significant difference in tone quality between them standard metal saddles?

STEWMAC.COM : Pictures of String Saver Tune-o-matic Saddles

[Philco]

Originally Posted by Richard-H

Does anybody have any experience with GraphTech bridge saddles in a Tune-o-Matic bridge? Any significant difference in tone quality between them standard metal saddles?

STEWMAC.COM : Pictures of String Saver Tune-o-matic Saddles

Yes. I fitted this

Products&Ordering - Graph Tech

to my Gibson 775.

I couldn't detect any difference in sound. Actually I didn't want any difference in sound. I just wanted that stupid retaining wire on the Tuneomatic to stop making horrid buzzing sounds.

I ended up going back to the TOM because the Graphtech did not have enough travel in the saddles for me to get the correct intonation.

The Graphtech saddles seemed fine but as I say, I couldn't hear any difference.
The Graphtech bridge body is very similar to a Gotoh. They are lightweight and have no more mass than a gibson.

I am currently waiting for a Callaham to arrive so I can replace the Tuneomatic again.

Callaham ABR-1 Bridge, Vintage Studs, Gold-Plated



I have no idea what the Callaham will do to the sound. It's an expensive experiment.
If it doesn't work I guess I will sell it.

I like the sound I am getting with the Tuneomatic.....minus the buzzing of the retainer.

[Tom Karol]

Originally Posted by Philco

I just wanted that stupid retaining wire on the Tuneomatic to stop making horrid buzzing sounds.

FWIW, I always take those retaining wire things off. They don't do anything when the strings are on (except buzz and rattle). All they do is keep the saddles from falling out when you change strings; you can do that yourself by just being careful.

[Philco]

Originally Posted by Tom Karol

FWIW, I always take those retaining wire things off. They don't do anything when the strings are on (except buzz and rattle). All they do is keep the saddles from falling out when you change strings; you can do that yourself by just being careful.

Hi Tom, you advised me about this in a previous post and I did take the wire off. No problems there and thanks for that.

It's just that my guitar is having some work done and I thought what the hell, whilst I'm at it I may as well try the Callaham.

[PTChristopher]

In my opinion it is not always the wire.

EDITED to clarify what can rattle:

On an ABR-there is some significant manufacturing variety. Often the saddle can be in a position where the screw is not pressed (forward or backward) against the threads in the saddle. If the screw head or flange is also not pressing against the bridge body it can be that it is actually a screw rattling, and not the 'wire of evil'.

I have a spool of light gray (for chrome/nickel) and a spool of gold (um, for gold bridges) colored nylon thread that are specifically for wrapping around the heads of ABR-1 screws (and hitting with CA) to keep the screws from rattling in those cases where the screw is not making solid contact with the bridge body.

Chris

[pingu]

Originally Posted by kris

What guitar you play?

Ibanez AF120

[kris]

Originally Posted by Richard-H

Does anybody have any experience with GraphTech bridge saddles in a Tune-o-Matic bridge? Any significant difference in tone quality between them standard metal saddles?

STEWMAC.COM : Pictures of String Saver Tune-o-matic Saddles

Yes . I have experience.
These saddles/teflon/ change sound for softer not metalic sound.
You have to be carefull when you instal them to Tune-o-matic bridge/I put it to ABR-1/.Teflon is not so strong like metal.
Actually I use KTS tytanium saddles on one of my bridges/Gibson ABR-1/.
Strzelczyk & Woli?ski CORCOVADO - YouTube

[kris]

Originally Posted by pingu

Ibanez AF120

If it works ok that is great.
I have obbsesion about tuners and tuning guitar.
There are some points about that:
frets,nut,bridge,fitting bridge,fingerboard,strings...etc.
so you must be happy with perfect guitar.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by Richard-H

Does anybody have any experience with GraphTech bridge saddles in a Tune-o-Matic bridge? Any significant difference in tone quality between them standard metal saddles?

STEWMAC.COM : Pictures of String Saver Tune-o-matic Saddles

I don't hae any experience with the Graphtech saddles in a normal Gibson TOM. I have a Graphtech Resomax TOM lying around. The saddles are made of "tusq" and the body of the bridge top is made by aluminium. That combo gives a somewhat darker sound as compared to the normal TOM bridges. I'd say that it is somewhere between a normal TOM and an ebony bridge top. In addition to the "tusq" saddles, the aluminium material may also play a role in the sound (Graphtech claims it does). The "tusq" saddles alone likely means less when used in a Gibson TOM.

For my Painter P-350 I ended up preferring a compensated ebony bridge top (from Sadowsky) because of its warmer sound and the sound quality is also more equal between the individual strings.

I have a Gotoh TOM on a 1961 Gibson 175, because it helps sustain, clarity and brightness which this particular guitar doesn't have a lot of with a wood bridge. This guitar seems to have changed in this respect through the four decades I have had it (maybe it's slowly dying - disintegration of the glue between the plies of the wood?). Whatever, the Painter sounds far better.

As for a "normal" all-metal TOM, I much prefer a Gotoh to the normal Gibson ABR-1. I used the latter for some years on the Gibson 175 but was constantly annoyed by the buzzing of the screws and the retaining wire. The Gotoh TOM doesn't have a retaining wire and the screws don't rattle.

[PTChristopher]

I think my description of the potential for rattling screws was pretty misleading yesterday, so I edited it to this:

************

In my opinion it is not always the wire.

On an ABR-there is some significant manufacturing variety. Often the saddle can be in a position where the screw is not pressed (forward or backward) against the threads in the saddle. If the screw head or flange is also not pressing against the bridge body it can be that it is actually a screw rattling, and not the 'wire of evil'.

I have a spool of light gray (for chrome/nickel) and a spool of gold (um, for gold bridges) colored nylon thread that are specifically for wrapping around the heads of ABR-1 screws (and hitting with CA) to keep the screws from rattling in those cases where the screw is not making solid contact with the bridge body.

Chris