Amp Heads for Post-Bop, Fusion

[VitalSigns]

I started a thread about Clarus amp heads the other day. I haven't given up completely with the idea of them, but I get the impression they're mainly used by archtop players playing in a 1950's style. My stuff is in a more 70's style post-bop and fusion groove. I currently have a little H&K SS combo which I fitted with an EV speaker, for the clean sound, and a Yamaha DG amp (again with an EV) for the overdriven sound. I'm about to record some of my tunes, and I feel the amps aren't quite right. I'm looking for a head which would be good for the clean/crunch sound - if the overdrive was usable, that would be a bonus. A lot of the candidates I was thinking of are only available occaisionally on the second hand market in the UK: Groove Tubes, Old JC120's (head conversions) for example. I wonder if anybody is using commercially available, rather than esoteric or obsolete boutique type amps for this type of music? There are a lot of small "lunchbox" tube amps now such as the H&K Tubemeister, Mesa TA-15, Two Rock etc. There are also Fender Supersonic heads I noticed in the Ads. Would be interested to hear people's views on this.

Jamie

[marcwhy]

I like tube amps, and I've owned excellent, relatively inexpensive "boutique" amps by Jim Frenzel (Texas) and Jack Anderson (Seattle). [FWIW, Jack has made several amps for Frisell]

Marc

[VitalSigns]

Thanks Marc. I'm not sure whether those have crossed the pond! I looked up a couple of UK players who play in a contemporary style: Mike Walker uses the Boogie Mk 4 and has done for years; Mike Outram a Cornford Hurricane combo. I'm in total admiration for someone who still grapples with the weight of the mk 4 - I took the heads out of my DG amps when I put EVs into them! I think I'll investigate the Boogie TA-15, the Cornford Roadhouse heads, and another British amp manufacturer (not many left!) Matamp. All suggestions appreciated.

[cosmic gumbo]

I've tried a Marshall tube head, and I thought it sounded awesome clean, and we know how well it does crunchy.

[Helgo]

Hi!

I think the Koch Studiotone Head is worth checking out.
Reasonably priced, lightweight, sounds great and can be very loud if needed.
Lots of voicing possibilities. Direct Out.

Cheers,
H.

[VitalSigns]

The Koch sounds interesting - problem is availability: there are a couple of shops listed, both in SW London, the luthier I use, who only stock them to order, and another one who only do the combos. Hadn't considered the Marshall - of course, most of the manufactureres use the same type of valves, not sure how it all relates to sound - worth trying them. I've heard some good things about Matamp - but they no longer have prices on their website - might be a bit too "bespoke" for me.

[kris]

Originally Posted by Helgo

Hi!

I think the Koch Studiotone Head is worth checking out.
Reasonably priced, lightweight, sounds great and can be very loud if needed.
Lots of voicing possibilities. Direct Out.

Cheers,
H.

How heavy is it?
Best
kris

[Bill C]

Originally Posted by VitalSigns

Thanks Marc. I'm not sure whether those have crossed the pond! I looked up a couple of UK players who play in a contemporary style: Mike Walker uses the Boogie Mk 4 and has done for years; Mike Outram a Cornford Hurricane combo. I'm in total admiration for someone who still grapples with the weight of the mk 4 - I took the heads out of my DG amps when I put EVs into them! I think I'll investigate the Boogie TA-15, the Cornford Roadhouse heads, and another British amp manufacturer (not many left!) Matamp. All suggestions appreciated.

Matamp did an Adrian Ingram Signature jazz combo a few years back ...

Adrian Ingram Gallery

[jorgemg1984]

I am pretty sure someone will build blackface clones in the UK - coupled with some good ODs / Distortion pedals they should provide the tone you seek no? A good cabinet with an EV is already an excellent start imo.

(I am personally a big fan of the jazzmaster ultralight and I have seen several used in ebay uk in the past)

[VitalSigns]

I'd be interested in trying the Fender Ultralight - I've not seen them advertised myself, but I'll keep a look out. I think the thing for me to do is to keep my powder dry, use my existing sound right up to the last minute I need the new amp for recording. If I'm not happy with what's available, a friend has a Mohave Coyote I could borrow to try out.

[jorgemg1984]

Maybe someone can borrow you a DRRI that you connect to the EV? That should do it no?

[VitalSigns]

Missed that one Jorge - do you mean a Fender Deluxe would sound the same as the SS Ultralight? One mark against US amps in the UK, is the overpricing here - I think the situation is reversed in the States. For the same money you could get a handwired head made to order. Makes the Cornford amps worth a try.

[jorgemg1984]

I am not sure if they would sound similar - but I know fusion guys here usually like the DRRI. You don't need an head format to a have one - just plug the amp to your cabinet instead of the stock speaker. And I think it would be easy for you to find one in the UK - if I were you I would borrow something from a friend, buying in a hurry rarely leads to good results.

I know what you mean - pedals and guitars are usually well prices but amps... I almost get an heart attack when I see US prices, I wish we had builders like that in Europe...

[VitalSigns]

Can I ask you Jorge, about the Ultralight. I did see one on a UK internet site for just under 800 Euros - I'm not sure I'd buy one of those without trying it, and that sounds a bit pricey for an obsolete amp - I couldn't give my DG amps away. The thing I liked about Pat Martino's sound with the Clarus was the "piano string" fullness. I don't like the upper string sound, which sounds as if the strings were miked up. Does the Ultralight have that quality? Does 2 Ohms impedence mean I only get 60W if I use a 1x12 8 Ohm cab? For my album, I'm less worried about the fusiony tracks - the DG does a pretty good distortion. Getting a good clean/crunch sound on the swing based tunes is not so easy. I'm not after the Barney Kessel sound I wanted when I started playing, but more of a (as I mentioned in an earlier thread) Pat Martino "Three Base Hit"/John Scofield Rough House/Adam Rogers Jazz originals sort of sound. Three very different sounds but with a strong attack. Maybe I should've played piano instead..
Jamie

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by VitalSigns

Can I ask you Jorge, about the Ultralight. I did see one on a UK internet site for just under 800 Euros - I'm not sure I'd buy one of those without trying it, and that sounds a bit pricey for an obsolete amp - I couldn't give my DG amps away. The thing I liked about Pat Martino's sound with the Clarus was the "piano string" fullness. I don't like the upper string sound, which sounds as if the strings were miked up. Does the Ultralight have that quality? Does 2 Ohms impedence mean I only get 60W if I use a 1x12 8 Ohm cab? For my album, I'm less worried about the fusiony tracks - the DG does a pretty good distortion. Getting a good clean/crunch sound on the swing based tunes is not so easy. I'm not after the Barney Kessel sound I wanted when I started playing, but more of a (as I mentioned in an earlier thread) Pat Martino "Three Base Hit"/John Scofield Rough House/Adam Rogers Jazz originals sort of sound. Three very different sounds but with a strong attack. Maybe I should've played piano instead..
Jamie

I wonder how much of Martino's sound is coming from his Gibson signature guitar. I found this review interesting... Text:

Gibson Pat Martino /5 (Review by Joe Jewell) In all fairness, this is a well-made guitar that, no doubt will appeal to many players, but it just didn’t work for me. The things that I liked least were qualities that perhaps make it the perfect guitar for Pat Martino and those are lack of sustain and an extremely dark sound. Another problem was that I absolutely could not get this guitar to play well. I tried every set-up trick I know and I could not get this guitar to feel good. I am going to attribute this to the compound-radius fingerboard. If I got it to feel good in the upper registers, the low frets buzzed. If it felt good down low, the action was too high above the 10th fret.

This is a very rigid guitar. The tone has an extremely strong fundamental with almost no overtone content. Again, this might be perfect for PM. Chords lacked complexity and single lines just sound barren. The top seems extraordinarily thick and stiff. I feel that this guitar could benefit from a spruce top, much like the more successful effort at making a chambered solid body, the Benedetto Benny.

This guitar is in serious need of an identity. I tried 10’s, 11’s and 12’s on it and couldn’t get a sound I like. The darkness seems artificial, produced by some type of capacitor or something, because the guitar is not dark at all acoustically. But the sound out of the neck pickup is muddy. In all fairness, I did find the Gibson PM to function pretty well in overdrive mode. With 10’s and the lead channel of a Fuchs amp it did sing fairly well and with both pickups on it did get into the Robben arena, but not nearly well enough to replace a 335 or Les Paul.

At this point, I have not been satisfied with chambered mahogany/maple top guitars. I’m sure they are much easier to make than guitars with sides, back and top. They can be CNC-ed in minutes. But every one I have tried lacks the great singing qualities of a nice Les Paul and they do not even approach the airy sound of a 335, much less of an archtop.

Sorry, I cannot recommend this guitar. - Joe Jewell

[kris]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

I wonder how much of Martino's sound is coming from his Gibson signature guitar. I found this review interesting... Text:

Gibson Pat Martino /5 (Review by Joe Jewell) In all fairness, this is a well-made guitar that, no doubt will appeal to many players, but it just didn’t work for me. The things that I liked least were qualities that perhaps make it the perfect guitar for Pat Martino and those are lack of sustain and an extremely dark sound. Another problem was that I absolutely could not get this guitar to play well. I tried every set-up trick I know and I could not get this guitar to feel good. I am going to attribute this to the compound-radius fingerboard. If I got it to feel good in the upper registers, the low frets buzzed. If it felt good down low, the action was too high above the 10th fret.

This is a very rigid guitar. The tone has an extremely strong fundamental with almost no overtone content. Again, this might be perfect for PM. Chords lacked complexity and single lines just sound barren. The top seems extraordinarily thick and stiff. I feel that this guitar could benefit from a spruce top, much like the more successful effort at making a chambered solid body, the Benedetto Benny.

This guitar is in serious need of an identity. I tried 10’s, 11’s and 12’s on it and couldn’t get a sound I like. The darkness seems artificial, produced by some type of capacitor or something, because the guitar is not dark at all acoustically. But the sound out of the neck pickup is muddy. In all fairness, I did find the Gibson PM to function pretty well in overdrive mode. With 10’s and the lead channel of a Fuchs amp it did sing fairly well and with both pickups on it did get into the Robben arena, but not nearly well enough to replace a 335 or Les Paul.

At this point, I have not been satisfied with chambered mahogany/maple top guitars. I’m sure they are much easier to make than guitars with sides, back and top. They can be CNC-ed in minutes. But every one I have tried lacks the great singing qualities of a nice Les Paul and they do not even approach the airy sound of a 335, much less of an archtop.

Sorry, I cannot recommend this guitar. - Joe Jewell

Pat Martino is a jazz guitarist!!!

[Franz 1997]

Maybe that's why he is playing a benedetto benny now......

[jorgemg1984]

Originally Posted by VitalSigns

Can I ask you Jorge, about the Ultralight. I did see one on a UK internet site for just under 800 Euros - I'm not sure I'd buy one of those without trying it, and that sounds a bit pricey for an obsolete amp - I couldn't give my DG amps away. The thing I liked about Pat Martino's sound with the Clarus was the "piano string" fullness. I don't like the upper string sound, which sounds as if the strings were miked up. Does the Ultralight have that quality? Does 2 Ohms impedence mean I only get 60W if I use a 1x12 8 Ohm cab? For my album, I'm less worried about the fusiony tracks - the DG does a pretty good distortion. Getting a good clean/crunch sound on the swing based tunes is not so easy. I'm not after the Barney Kessel sound I wanted when I started playing, but more of a (as I mentioned in an earlier thread) Pat Martino "Three Base Hit"/John Scofield Rough House/Adam Rogers Jazz originals sort of sound. Three very different sounds but with a strong attack. Maybe I should've played piano instead..
Jamie

Well you're putting me in a very hard position... I do love the amp but I cannot honestly say for you to spend the 800€ without trying it first. I actually paid 750€ without trying it first (a friend of mine brought it from Madrid) - the second I plugged it I knew I had found my amp but tone is so different from person to person.

About your questions - I had that feeling with the upper strings in my Henriksen and I don't notice it in the JMUL. According to my tech the treble control is a little complex and although it's a little high (10k) it really acts as a bright control and you can dial the spikes of those strings out. It can be a little mid-strong because of the stock speaker, a Jensen Neo that as a 2k spike, but not ice-picky.

About the impedance / power rullers apparently the divided by half rule does not apply in some amps - just check Henriksen or AI power ratings. The 250w is also a myth - the stock speaker is 100w so... I have used it with 2 ohms, 4 ohms and 8 ohms with different speakers with different efficiency values. It was still quite lout at 8 ohms although you could notice the difference compared to 2 ohms. But it was always loud and clean all the way.

The best thing for me about the amp is that it can achieve "jazz amp" sounds with an EQ suitable for electric guitar and a little tube warm / vibe. It's also very light and has nice reverbs which is essential for me for some gigs.

The down sides are reliability and noises - as you can check on some foruns. Mine has been perfect untill one month ago where it started to make some noises... my tech has been really busy but he said it should be easy to fix. Apparently the amp can also has some problems running at 2 ohms... let's see what my tech says. I also put better op amps and will mod to the volume control so it doesn't add highs when is turned up.

Hope this helps...

[VitalSigns]

Thanks Jorge - I guess the internet and e-bay mean that there's a lot of gear available we would never have access to before. Sometimes you're lucky and you can travel to try out the piece. The Ultralight I mentioned is way up North. I'd really like to try it, but the distance, price, impedence issue, not to mention no effects loop, puts me off, but maybe one day.
BDLH - I think there's always a problem where an artist has endorsed their own model - for the rest of us. A friend of mine had the Ibanez Holdsworth guitar; I used to have one of the Seymour Duncan AH pickups. They sounded (disregarding technique!) uncannily like Allan - you don't want people thinking "yeah, that sounds like so-and-so" while you're playing (er, they may be doing that anyway, and maybe not who you'd want..). Customs may need a bit of customising themselves. I had quite a lot of work done on my Gibson Howard Roberts Fusion semi, to the frets, bridge and pickups before I felt comfortable with it. More recently, I've transferred allegiance to a new Godin LGX-SA, a terrific guitar, but it didn't feel right. I had the frets Plek'd to be more like the 6130s on the Gibson, rather than the rock type frets they come with, and I'm much happier. I once read somewhere how Barney Kessel (a bit worse for wear on a long tour) was very disrespectful to his Gibson BK custom - I think "piece of shit" was how he put it.

[jorgemg1984]

My luthier has worked with several important guitar players and also with some of their signature models owned by customers - he said in ALL cases the differences were very significant... I am always very careful about endorsements.

I remember doing a little research on several "jazz amp" brands websites and finding quotes by the same player saying that's the amp... Unfortunatelly it works because a lot of people buy the stuff their idols use. Of course sometimes players do love a piece of gear and honestly endorse them.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

... I am always very careful about endorsements.

I remember doing a little research on several "jazz amp" brands websites and finding quotes by the same player saying that's the amp... Unfortunatelly it works because a lot of people buy the stuff their idols use. Of course sometimes players do love a piece of gear and honestly endorse them.

I fully agree. Endorsements should be taken with more than a grain of salt. Barney Kessel was once en endoreser for Gibson, but at a point they ran into some kind of disagreement. After that, he covered the Gibson logo on his customized ES 350 and would never comment on the brands of the gear he used. For example, in an interview, he refused to answer questions about his choice of string brand, because, as he said, he paid for his strings himself and was not an endorser of anything. He added that there were so many great string brands out there which would all work well for him. I guess the same goes for all our gear. "It's all in the fingers."

That way it may not be too difficult for a well known player to go with a particualar endorsement deal. If amp X, amp Y and amp Z all plays fine and the maker of amp Y offers the player a deal which means he can have a couple of free amps and service on them - then what's to miss for him.

Freddie Green became a Gretsch endorser in the late 1950s, and we all know the sight of his blonde Gretsch Eldorado. However, a singer has told, that at a recording session which span two days, he said to the singer that this sission ran so well that he'd bring his "best guitar" the next day (it could have been one of his two Strombergs or his Epiphone Emperor). His Gretsch Eldorado was obviously seen by himself as a tool and not a holy grail.

[Hammertone]

Originally Posted by Helgo

Hi!
I think the Koch Studiotone Head is worth checking out.
Reasonably priced, lightweight, sounds great and can be very loud if needed.
Lots of voicing possibilities. Direct Out.
Cheers,
H.

Originally Posted by kris

How heavy is it?
Best
kris

Studiotone head - 10 kg - 20 watts - 2 x el84
Studiotone XL head - 12 kg - 40 watts - 4 x el84
Twintone II head - 15 kg - 50 watts - 2 x el34

I really like these amps because they do clean jazz as well as distortion really well, which makes them great for traditional as well as "modern" jazz sounds. Dolph Koch is focused on making really good amps and has no interest in selling mojo juice.

These amps have plenty of power and useful features. Their combo equivalents of the above are small and relatively light. I always get one for the Hofner booth at winter NAMM and they sound great. They are made in Holland and should be easy enough to find in the UK (or get one sent in from a European dealer?).

I had a Twintone II combo that I sold off last year, realized that I should have kept it, and just replaced it with a Studiotone XL combo as my main gigging amp.

[Helgo]

Hi.

VitalSigns: Thomann does deliver to the UK and they have a 30day moneyback guarantee. If you really think this amp will work for you they will send it to you even if you state frankly, that you haven´t really made the final decision on keeping it.

kris: The head weighs 10kg, the combo 15kg, check koch-amps.com


Cheers,
H.

[VitalSigns]

I had the option of paying for a Clarus and sending it back if I didn't like it. It goes against my nature to hedge my bets in that way (besides I've had serious problems with City Link couriers in the past!). I think it's time to get out to the shops. On my list of things to try, are a S/H series 2 Clarus; Cornford Hurricane - I found this YouTube clip of Mike Outram, who nails the whole Scofield 80's bag, but with a more Boogie type sound: London horns 'Feelin nearly normal'.mov - YouTube; also their Roadhouse Heads; Egnater Rebel; H & K + Mesa Boogie lunchbox heads; some Fenders and the odd S/H bargain. I won't know how much headroom these amps have without trying them - the usual clean sound YT demo is a guy with a Strat picking out arpeggios and chords in a sub Little Wing style. And of course most of the overdrive channel sounds are too much for Jazz or the places we play. It's a dangerous thing to do tho' - you try out the piece you came to hear, and they say "well, this is a bit over your budget, but you should try this one..". Damn credit cards!
Jamie

[jorgemg1984]

Man great solo!! Maybe I am wrong but I think you nail that sound with a Boogie or a Fender and a RAT pedal... if you have his choops and his legatto feel.

[VitalSigns]

I'd love a Mark iv Mesa Boogie - a) if I could afford it b) when they invent anti-gravity devices. The Cornford Hurricane seems to have some of that quality, is about 1/2 the weight and much cheaper. Must be worth a look.
Which Fender head/combo would you recommend I try Jorge?

[jorgemg1984]

Hmm not sure - I have played with several fenders from sveral eras. A lot of guys love the DRRI, try it... I think the only heads they make these days are the super sonic (which i found too bright) and the bandmaster vm (never tried it but some people seem to love it... other to hate it. I think ipdeluxe here on the forum has one).

Here you can find a Mesa Express 50 head used for a reasonable price - the Express is a very versatile amp. Here's a friend of mine using the 1x10 25w combo.

Mario Delgado_ Alex Frazao_Lars Arens.MOV - YouTube

[VitalSigns]

Thanks - very eclectic. Good to see the Spanish still appreciate Free music.
First proper amp I ever had was a Twin, loved it but a real beast to lug around. I think I was happiest with my sound in my early years of playing when I lived in this huge house and had a little Champ and an old 335. Then I had to ruin it all by learning how music fitted together, and wanting to inflict my music on others beyond my neighbours - sigh..
The Fender promo video for the Bandmaster has a comedian on it, who got his Jazz chops out of a Mickey Baker book. Delay sounds a little Holdsy tho'. Have you noticed how the players on YouTube demos never have a first string in the double digits? Twang! Fender Band-Master Vintage Modified Guitar Amplifier - YouTube
I'll give it a try, but I think it might be a bit bright for me.

[jorgemg1984]

Well first things first: I am Portuguese NOT Spanish

Some guys put Twins / Pro Reverbs in heads... the original Bandmaster / Showman / Dual Showman and even some Bassman are all heads and supposed to be great. I am sure someone in the UK can make a Twin-type amp in a head for a decent price...

Man 99% I see companies doing jazz demos they are laughable... rock guys think you can read Guitar Player's jazz lessons, use some chromatics and voila you play jazz (it's like saying I play rock because I know the blues scale).

One thing - I suppose you are getting your distortion from a pedal and all you care is clean sound right? The Conford seems good but 20w and EL84 should give some compression / crunch at louder volumes (and the V30 is a bright speaker). They have other more powerfull 6l6 options as I see in their website.

Do you know these guys?

Torres Valve Amplifiers

[VitalSigns]

Ahem.. Good to see the Portugese still appreciate Free music - sorry 'bout that. Wow - that Torres site sounds interesting. When I say clean, I really mean from a Pat Martino JC120 70's clean up to a crunchy late 70's Scofield. Not a Kenny Burrell clean, and not the chimey metallic Fender clean. I use a Seymour Duncan Twin preamp, but it'd be great to have an amp that would do it all. After using SS amps for so long, I'm still a bit apprehensive about the fragility and re-valving/re-biasing of tube amps. A bit like the difference between an electric car (I guess) and my wreck out front, which needs a major service from time to time. Being a musician is obsessive enough - am I going to have to become obsessed about this valve v that one, like the car jocks who only use this viscosity oil, that spark plug? There's a part of me thinks this is all a bit 1940's technology - but then I guess our guitars are too..