The "Metheny" tone.. yaaawn...

[SamBooka]

hate to see a good thread sidetracked so I am starting this.

to stir the pot a little I will add

Jim Hall = ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Dont actually like PM. Love Jim Hall, Love Joe Pass. But tone wise they all have some albums that, tone wise, leave me uninspired.

Dont confuse talent and tone.. I can sound AMAZING with the right gear if you dont ask me to play anything more complicated than Gmaj7

Variation on a theme: I have hear people say "Jeff Beck would sound fabulous even on a 100$ Squire strat..." So would that mean he has amazing tone? Its all in the fingers? So why do we pay 2K for a laminated top guitar?

I find these threads the most counter productive but if it helps yall blow off a little steam.. be my guest

I am out of here ....

[oldane]

A few weeks ago I bought a reissue CD with the two Howard Roberts albums from 1963 ("H.R. is a dirty guitar player" and "Color him funky"). That's a guitar tone I like.

[Patrick2]

Yeah . . . I can see this thread getting the juices flowing. If it peters out, I could resurect the Heritage head stock issue. That's always fun. But, you did mention a couple of players I just can't seem to listen to for any longer than a minute or 2. At the very top of that list is Jim Hall. Can't stand his work. I haven't listented to him for such a long time that I forgot how much I dislike him. Then, about 2 or 3 weeks ago, he appeared on some award show where there are honors given for life time achievements. He was part of a jazz ensemble playing one of the honoree's works. I'm amazed that he was ever able to earn a living with the guitar. I imagine that one day he too will receive an award . . . for fewest notes played within an improv in a jazz tune. Metheny . . . just can't get past his tone to hear his lines. That's more my problem than it is his. But, if he wants to midi and effect everything he should have just learned keyboards. The last is John Scofield. He too is a great player that just loses me. Why the dirty sound with the great jazz lines?

I've become a real snob as it relates to any jazz music other than that nice clean jazz guitar tone belting out the classic and standard tunes. When I need a change, I just pop the Allman Brothers Live at The Filmore. Maybe follow that up with some Lee Ritenour, then some Larry Carlton. That brings me back out of the duldrums . . . at least for a day or two.

[kenbennett]

The best thing I can say about Pat Metheny's tone is I know who is playing when I hear it. Uniqueness of tone is a good marketing tool.

[aniss1001]

Originally Posted by SamBooka

The "Metheny" tone.. yaaawn...

Woaw careful there buddy, apparantly some folk round here find it blasfemish not to like the sound of the great Pat Metheny

Originally Posted by Patrick2

The last is John Scofield. He too is a great player
that just loses me. Why the dirty sound with the great jazz lines?

Because it just sounds soooo much better with a nice and dirty tone for jazz. Gets under your skin in way that a cleaner tone just never could. Well that is MY opinion.

Personally there are lots of guitarists whose tone I don't particularly like. In some cases I dig their actual playing (eg. Metheny, Abercrombie, Frisell) and others not so much (eg. Stern, Benson).

[Patrick2]

Originally Posted by kenbennett

The best thing I can say about Pat Metheny's tone is I know who is playing when I hear it. Uniqueness of tone is a good marketing tool.

Yeah . . . I remember years back I was also able to easily identify Tiny Tim's voice too. I'm just sayin' . . . . . .

[mr. beaumont]

Well this thread could either be cathartic, hilarious, or ugly. Just remain gentlemen, gentlemen.

As for tone, pat's newest tone like on road trip is a little too dark and dry for me...I actually like jim hall's dark dry tone and his use of effects, but then again, I also think he's one of the most harmonically creative guitar players to ever live...without jim, we'd all be stuck playing bebop...I think of jim hall as the father of modern jazz guitar.

[BenThayer]

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Allman Brothers Live at The Filmore. Maybe follow that up with some Lee Ritenour, then some Larry Carlton. That brings me back out of the duldrums . . . at least for a day or two.

++++1!

I like the whole album, but esp. Duane on "Eliz. Reed" from 10:59 - 11:15. Totally extraterrestrial!

And Larry Carlton on "Kid Charlemagne"

[krusty]

Originally Posted by aniss1001

...and others not so much (eg. Stern, Benson).

Uh-oh. Now you've done it. Dissin' 2 of my favorite players...

I do believe that some players have made some interesting music IN SPITE OF their equipment choices, not because of them, yet some jazz players obsess over getting the same bland, basic clean tone that is just plain uninspiring. Granted, when playing rhythm, the guitar sound should disappear into the mix, but that is no excuse not to kick on a little tonal help for a ripping solo.

[mattymel]

...funny. So far all the people with "bad tone" are the only ones mentioned that have their own sound and can actually play.

[Patrick2]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Well this thread could either be cathartic, hilarious, or ugly. Just remain gentlemen, gentlemen.

As for tone, pat's newest tone like on road trip is a little too dark and dry for me...I actually like jim hall's dark dry tone and his use of effects, but then again, I also think he's one of the most harmonically creative guitar players to ever live...without jim, we'd all be stuck playing bebop...I think of jim hall as the father of modern jazz guitar.

I agree with all you said there Mr. B. I found it particularly interesting when, as I was reading your comments about how this thread could get ugly . . . I just happened to glance down at Ben Thayer's avatar photo. Man, every thime I see that thing it just grosses me out.

But, back to your post . . . I agree with what you say about Jim Hall. He is the epitome of harmonic complexities. I would just like him much better if he would phrase those harmonic intervals more melodically. I'm not one to listen to someone's guitar playing and say to myself . . . "wow, that's really an interesting use of harmonic expression". I would rather say to myself . . . "wow . . . that line is really speaking to me . . . it's saying something". Also, when I used to listen to Jim Hall play, it was extremely frustrating for me. Kinda like listening to a guy with a speach impediment trying to get the words out. Ya wanna just blurt them out and say the words for him. Jim Hall is truly a master, and I do recognize that. Just, not my taste in musicality.

[jorgemg1984]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I think of jim hall as the father of modern jazz guitar.

This is SO TRUE. Those records with Bill Evans just changed everything (Pat Metheny agrees on this). Let's hope this thread doesn't destroy the forum

[jorgemg1984]

Originally Posted by Patrick2

At the very top of that list is Jim Hall. Can't stand his work. I haven't listented to him for such a long time that I forgot how much I dislike him. Then, about 2 or 3 weeks ago, he appeared on some award show where there are honors given for life time achievements. He was part of a jazz ensemble playing one of the honorees works. I'm amazed that he was ever able to earn a living with the guitar. I imagine that one day he too will receive an award . . . for fewest notes played within an improv in a jazz tune. .

"I'm amazed that he was ever able to earn a living with the guitar" Well apparently Bill Evans, Sonny Rollins, Art Farmer, Paul Desmond, Ella Fitzgerald and many many other invited him to play and record with them. But ha who do hell was Bill Evans anyway?

You can check other obscure players who invited Jim to play with them here

Jim Hall (musician) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(I am just teasing you, I cannot stand Joe Pass who I know you like a lot!)

[Dark Star]

One night many decades ago in NYC I was playing a gig at this tiny restaurant. During the break this black man comes up to me & says, "My name is Wes. I've been digging your sound since I came in, & I noticed you have an unorthodox approach. What are you doing exactly?"
So I told him, "I don't use a pick. I don't even use all my fingers, really. I just use my pinky for everything."
So he says, "I play also, & I'm going to have to try that!" I said, "Hold on there. That's my signature style. That's how I get my tone. Why don't you try to be original? Like maybe use your thumb instead." He says, "Are you kidding? That would be too awkward."
I encouraged him to give it a shot & see if he could make it work. I don't know if he ever took my advice as I never saw him again.

[mattymel]

Jim Hall isn't melodic?...speechless.

Metheny's tone...has become less and less what I want to hear. As does his failure to stop getting better with every passing year. He's almost too good to listen for me now. Still love me some BSL and Rejoicing. Tone wise been kind of downhill for me since Question and Answer.

[Patrick2]

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

"I'm amazed that he was ever able to earn a living with the guitar" Well apparently Bill Evans, Sonny Rollins, Art Farmer, Paul Desmond, Ella Fitzgerald and many many other invited him to play and record with them. But ha who do hell was Bill Evans anyway?

You can check other obscure players who invited Jim to play with them here

Jim Hall (musician) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you Jorge. I am well aware of JH's status as a side man, as well as all of the leaders who embraced the opportunity to work with him. Also, those whom he performed the many Town Hall gigs with. However, that is not at all what I was referencing. Although, to your point, any player with JH's abilities as a side man will always be able to earn more than a decent living with the guitar. I guess I should have been more specific to his work as a lead musician. I wouldn't imagine there's a very large buying group for his projects. I don't for one minute discredit what he does. I just point out that I don't like it. While I did indicate that I couldn't sit comfortable through 2 minutes of his playing . . . I would doubt the he could sit comfortable through 2 minutes of mine either

[jazzbow]

First off well done Sam for trolling the amps & gizmos threads, as it gets the most visits.
I maybe speaking out of line here but tone is unimportant, fluidity of/angularity of notes in jazz improvisation is what draws us to a certain player or track or whole album. For me its the notes maan and 'How did they make that work?' is what draws me in.

Jim Hall leaves me cold, Pat Metheny? Nah! Too squishy.

Jimi Hendrix yes, Pierre Bensusan without a doubt, Barney Kessel for flying by the seat of your pants, Charlie Christian for the beauty of the single line, Kenny Burrell to show me what I aspire to, Zoot Horn Rollo for a tin tear drop, John McGlaughlin because 10 fingers are better than 4, Django Reinhardt because 2 fingers are better than 4 and Steve Jones for balls out balls.

All different guitar tones and different tones through consecutive career albums but the notes, wow!

Oh, and Grant Greene is the shiz, right notes and in the right order despite what everyone thinks.

[jorgemg1984]

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Thank you Jorge. I am well aware of JH's status as a side man, as well as all of the leaders who embraced the opportunity to work with him. Also, those who he performed the many Town Hall gigs with. However, that is not at all what I was referencing. Although, to your point, any player with JH's abilities as a side man will always be able to earn more than a decent living with the guitar. I guess I should have been more specific to his work as a lead musician. I wouldn't imagine there's a very large buying group for his projects. I don't for one minute discredit what he does. I just point out that I don't like it. While I did indicate that I couldn't sit comfortable through 2 minutes of his playing . . . I would doubt the he could sit comfortable through 2 minutes of mine either

I have the exact same thing with Joe Pass - i understand his greatness but I cannot LIKE him. It's all taste.

Fortunatelly I can sit comfortable trough 2 minutes of my playing

[Patrick2]

Originally Posted by jazzbow

Oh, and Grant Greene is the shiz, right notes and in the right order despite what everyone thinks.

Don't know if you've heard the Joshua Breakstone album "Remembering Grant Green". If not, you'll probably dig his tribute to GG. Joshua plays pretty well, very nice tone and phraseology. It took me a little while to get used to the fact that he prefers to not play at the very top of the beat, but ever so slightly behind it. But, then after a while, I really liked the nuance.

[zigzag]

You guys crack me up.

[jorgemg1984]

I sort of stopped listening to Joshua Breakstone after reading that guy saying you have to know how to speak English in order to play jazz... But I liked what I heard before reading that.

http://www.jazzguitarlife.com/Jazz-G...Breakstone.htm

[Patrick2]

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

I sort of stopped listening to Joshua Breakstone after reading that guy saying you have to know how to speak English in order to play jazz... But I liked what I heard before reading that.

http://www.jazzguitarlife.com/Jazz-G...Breakstone.htm

Wow . . . I didn't realize he ever said something so stupid. I stopped listening to Rahsaan Roland Kirk for the same reason. A friend of mine (great trumpet player) and I went over to The Village Gate in Manahattan back in the late '60s. Kirk was there and we got word that Freddie Hubbard was going to be a guest performer. At one point, Kirk asked all of the other musicians to leave the stage. He then announced that he was going to perform a song he wrote. He said he wrote the song using only the notes on the black keys of the piano as a protest to what white people did to jazz. Half the audience (mostly the white people) including my friend and I walked out at the start of the tune/noise.

I haven't read Breakstone's comments yet on the link you posted, but I will. I want to read the context in which he spoke those words . . . not that anything could make them less offensive . . . just curious.

[Dark Star]

I'm "white". What did I do to jazz?

[jorgemg1984]

jazz guitar life - jazz guitar interview with Joshua Breakstone

You have to read it in cache.

Roland Kirk said that? Race has been unfortunatelly a strong subject on jazz.. I would have had the same attitude you had, leave the room!

[krusty]

Well, you need to take what he actually said in the context of that whole section of the interview. He was comparing the subtleties of English speech to that of the musical language and manner of its presentation that is Jazz. He certainly did not intend for his comments to be taken in a racist/xenophobic manner. He is simply trying to ascertain the roots of his own interpretation of the art.

[Dark Star]

I love Pat's tone. His hair, however, is another matter.

[JakeAcci]

Tone and player preferences are a personal thing, but maybe that's too obvious to be worth stating.

Something I like thinking about when 'judging' a player is - if I weren't a guitarist, what would I think of this guitarist, regarding both musical choices as well as tone? And on a good day I try to apply that thinking to my own playing as, ideally, purely a listener.

Getting a little off topic (but I will bring it back, I promise) I think that with the guitar there are certain things to play that are very gratifying even though they might not be very musical, or not really what we'd want to hear if we were the listener. I think there can be a few reasons for this:

1. The bit in question reminds us of some iconic guitarist, and it feels good under the fingers to feel like we're channeling one of our heroes..but we haven't noticed that it's really not what fits the moment, musically.

2. The bit is challenging enough to execute cleanly that there is satisfaction in feeling the accomplishment of working hard and then being able to perform something difficult.

3. In our heads we hear it as something different than how it actually sounds, and then when we perform the bit we're not listening close enough our own playing (and the rest of the band) to actually realize that we missed our mark.

4. Many other possibilities...

Bringing it back on-topic, I think choices of equipment, sound, and attack can apply to all of the above as well.

I bring this up because I think Jim Hall is one of the few jazz guitarists (among the heavy hitters that are often listed) that makes a very strong impact on listeners that are not jazz guitarists. For jazz guitarists I think there is satisfaction in hearing somebody nail that "Jazz Guitar Tone" and play iconic, classic type of phrasing that fits purely in our mold of what we want "Jazz Guitar" to sound like. I think non-jazz guitarists are more open and non musicians are of course listening for entirely different qualities of sound that are separate from all the specifics that we tend to obsess over.

I'll never forget, I had a girlfriend that didn't for jazz at all, but then she overheard me listening to "Alone Together" the album with Jim and Ron Carter, and she said "wait, what's this? I actually like this!" She said "most of the jazz you play always sounds like its trying too hard."

I know for myself, I don't want to just be a player that makes other jazz guitarists go "ah, there it is, that's the stuff!" I aim to communicate a specific musical vision. Utmost respect for Jim Hall, because I think that was his aim as well.

"In the long run, it's more important to look at paintings than to listen to the way somebody plays bebop lines.”—Jim Hall

It's still a personal preference issue, for sure, but I look up to the players that make decisions musically, and artistically (creatively) rather than just...'guitaristically'.

But being inside the guitar world is cool too...maybe it's just important to not forget where you are.

[zigzag]

I wish I had Metheny's hair.

Edit: Good post Jake.

In the end, all we are talking is aesthetics and personal preferences. I love the Allman Bro.s and Live the Fillmore, but some might argue that In Memory of Elizabeth Reed is a lot of blues guitar drival.

[jorgemg1984]

I bet Pat Metheny subbed for Mel Gibson on "Braveheart".

[jorgemg1984]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

I bring this up because I think Jim Hall is one of the few jazz guitarists (among the heavy hitters that are often listed) that makes a very strong impact on listeners that are not jazz guitarists. For jazz guitarists I think there is satisfaction in hearing somebody nail that "Jazz Guitar Tone" and play iconic, classic type of phrasing that fits purely in our mold of what we want "Jazz Guitar" to sound like. I think non-jazz guitarists are more open and non musicians are of course listening for entirely different qualities of sound that are separate from all the specifics that we tend to obsess over.

I'll never forget, I had a girlfriend that didn't for jazz at all, but then she overheard me listening to "Alone Together" the album with Jim and Ron Carter, and she said "wait, what's this? I actually like this!" She said "most of the jazz you play always sounds like its trying too hard."

I know for myself, I don't want to just be a player that makes other jazz guitarists go "ah, there it is, that's the stuff!" I aim to communicate a specific musical vision. Utmost respect for Jim Hall, because I think that was his aim as well.

"In the long run, it's more important to look at paintings than to listen to the way somebody plays bebop lines.”—Jim Hall

It's still a personal preference issue, for sure, but I look up to the players that make decisions musically, and artistically (creatively) rather than just...'guitaristically'.

But being inside the guitar world is cool too...maybe it's just important to not forget where you are.

I always loved that Hall quote. Chris Potter said about Jim "The way that he can be both melodic and sweet and deeply inventive and open-minded at the same time made a big impression on me,"