The "Metheny" tone.. yaaawn...

[aniss1001]

Hey guys, just wanna thank ya'll for educating me on Jim Hall. I'm definately thinking of him in different way. And more importantly HEARING him in a different way Right now listening to Paul Desmond's "feeling blue" which was the 1st I ever heard with Hall many years ago...

By the way does anyone have some transcriptions of some CHORD work by Hall? Or some literature by / about it? The thing is his single lines are quite easy to transcribe, but my ear isn't developed enough to transcribe chords, and that is where I find him the most interesting...

[jorgemg1984]

Fresh Sound New Talent has released the entire Hall / Desmond records in a 4-CD box. There's no words to describe those records... I have transcribed some of Jim's comping but I never wrote it down - I always write solos but wirting comping it's too hard and not worh it imo.

It's no so hard to transcribe his comping - his chords are very clear and logical. He uses a lot of drops (the exception being his "walking chords" technique as used in some of his duos with Bill Evans and Michel Petrucciani, that was hard to transcribe).

Try to start with his Ron Carter duo records (maybe you are lucky to find some transcriptions using google). If you know drop 2 / drop 3 chords well it's not that hard.

[Synchro]

Originally Posted by aniss1001

Hey guys, just wanna thank ya'll for educating me on Jim Hall. I'm definately thinking of him in different way. And more importantly HEARING him in a different way Right now listening to Paul Desmond's "feeling blue" which was the 1st I ever heard with Hall many years ago...

By the way does anyone have some transcriptions of some CHORD work by Hall? Or some literature by / about it? The thing is his single lines are quite easy to transcribe, but my ear isn't developed enough to transcribe chords, and that is where I find him the most interesting...

There are some Jim Hall songbooks published that have good transcriptions. Hal Leonard I believe.

[jorgemg1984]

I remember once seeing one of those books and the "Autumn Leaves" transcription was really accurate (I have seen things on real books and songbooks that I don't know how they got printed...).

[Richard-H]

He may not be playing guitar, but here's a surprisingly great Jazz player:

Bill Clinton Plays Giant Steps - YouTube

[Patrick2]

Originally Posted by Richard-H

He may not be playing guitar, but here's a surprisingly great Jazz player:

Bill Clinton Plays Giant Steps - YouTube

Great post Richard! That was hilarious. The sun glasses and the serious look on his face made it seem all too real.

[Dark Star]

He's TOTALLY ripping off Coltrane

[Patrick2]

Originally Posted by Dark Star

He's TOTALLY ripping off Coltrane

Naaaaaaa . . . . that didn't sound anything at all like the original Coltrane version

[SamBooka]

Not bad.. but he still doesnt have Coltrane's breathing down right.. nice try...

[JimBobWay]

Originally Posted by aniss1001

Hey guys, just wanna thank ya'll for educating me on Jim Hall. I'm definately thinking of him in different way. And more importantly HEARING him in a different way Right now listening to Paul Desmond's "feeling blue" which was the 1st I ever heard with Hall many years ago...

By the way does anyone have some transcriptions of some CHORD work by Hall? Or some literature by / about it? The thing is his single lines are quite easy to transcribe, but my ear isn't developed enough to transcribe chords, and that is where I find him the most interesting...

I posted a link last year to Steve's transcription of one of Jim's scary-fast chord solos. No offense to Wes - just sayin'. I prefer Bass+Guitar duo and Jim & Ron Carter's 2 recordings are among the finest imo/hope this helps

[Jazzpunk]

I hope I can comp half as good as Jim Hall someday. Definitely one of the greats in my book!

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by aniss1001

Hey guys, just wanna thank ya'll for educating me on Jim Hall. I'm definately thinking of him in different way. And more importantly HEARING him in a different way Right now listening to Paul Desmond's "feeling blue" which was the 1st I ever heard with Hall many years ago...

There are some good listening recommendations in this thread if you haven't seen it already:

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/playe...on-thread.html

[jorgemg1984]

Does anyone knows if Hall on his early Evans, Farmer, Desmond records was using flats or rounds? Thanks!

[Nighthawks]

Pat Metheny and Jim Hall are living legends on the guitar. They use their tone to play off and into the " good notes " that very few of us ever consistantly find. In other words: their voice on guitar must be judged by both the tunes that they write and the notes that they play. Only a few other players in history...Django, Charlie and Wes are in the same league.
To really understand these players, you'll need to listen to the greatest jazz musician of all time...Bill Evans. You'll need to listen to him daily for at least ten years and then you will understand how deep the above guitar players are and were.

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by Nighthawks

Pat Metheny and Jim Hall are living legends on the guitar. They use their tone to play off and into the " good notes " that very few of us ever consistantly find. In other word: their voice on guitar must be judged by both the tunes that they write and the notes that they play. Only a few other players in history...Django, Charlie and Wes are in the same league.
To really understand these players, you'll need to listen to greatest jazz musician of all time...Bill Evans. You'll need to listen to him daily for at least ten years and then you will understand how deep the above guitar players are and were.

I like the way you think!!

[Double 07]

Originally Posted by Nighthawks

Pat Metheny and Jim Hall are living legends on the guitar. They use their tone to play off and into the " good notes " that very few of us ever consistantly find. In other words: their voice on guitar must be judged by both the tunes that they write and the notes that they play. Only a few other players in history...Django, Charlie and Wes are in the same league.
To really understand these players, you'll need to listen to the greatest jazz musician of all time...Bill Evans. You'll need to listen to him daily for at least ten years and then you will understand how deep the above guitar players are and were.

Yes great players and great songwriters agreed, living legends! IMO though you can't talk about "greatest jazz guitarist in history" without putting George Benson on the list. We all (should at least) know that he can interpret standards or fusion originals like no other. Sure he's playing more "mainstream" popular jazz sometimes but that exposure of a player of his caliber to a wider audience has definitely brought in more fans to the classic jazz realm. That is definitely a good thing for jazz in general.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by Nighthawks

To really understand these players, you'll need to listen to the greatest jazz musician of all time...Bill Evans. You'll need to listen to him daily for at least ten years and then you will understand how deep the above guitar players are and were.

Well, I'm 60 years old by now. I don't have 10 years to focus only on Bill Evans (whom I appreciate very much) and after that on Metheny and Hall. So I must go on understanding and playing at my own lower level.

BTW, one could argue that it is a matter of personal preference and taste who is "the greatest jazz musician of all time". One could also argue that it is is not that important. Why choose between a lily and a rose when you can enjoy them both. Why not enjoy BOTH Art Tatum and Bill Evans and Bud Powell and Duke Ellington and ..... But of course, that's only me.

[jorgemg1984]

Originally Posted by Nighthawks

Pat Metheny and Jim Hall are living legends on the guitar. They use their tone to play off and into the " good notes " that very few of us ever consistantly find. In other words: their voice on guitar must be judged by both the tunes that they write and the notes that they play. Only a few other players in history...Django, Charlie and Wes are in the same league.
To really understand these players, you'll need to listen to the greatest jazz musician of all time...Bill Evans. You'll need to listen to him daily for at least ten years and then you will understand how deep the above guitar players are and were.

I really don't get your point honestly... And I like Hall and Metheny (as I said above). Just saying Bill Evans is the greatest jazz musician of all time and you need 10 years of daily listening to dig him is a little exaggerated.. There are plenty of monsters in the jazz history to dig and hear, spending 10 years listening to Bill Evans (whose music I really live) and forgeting Milles, Parker, Coltrane, Armstrong, Jarrett, etc.. is not exactly wise. And I don't get exactly why would you need to go deep into Bill Evans to understand Hall and Metheny.

I agree with your Django, Charlie, Wes, Hall and Meteny list but I would add more contemporary names like Scofield, Bernstein, Rosenwinkel...

[Flyin' Brian]

Originally Posted by oldane

Well, I'm 60 years old by now. I don't have 10 years to focus only on Bill Evans (whom I appreciate very much) and after that on Metheny and Hall. So I must go on understanding and playing at my own lower level.

BTW, one could argue that it is a matter of personal preference and taste who is "the greatest jazz musician of all time". One could also argue that it is is not that important. Why choose between a lily and a rose when you can enjoy them both. Why not enjoy BOTH Art Tatum and Bill Evans and Bud Powell and Duke Ellington and ..... But of course, that's only me.

As I approach 65, I can heartily agree with this entire post. It's all in perspective. Even when I was younger, I couldn't POSSIBLY imagine focusing on only one artists for 10 years. There's too much that would be missed.

[Patrick2]

I must agree with the above posts by oldane, jorgemg1984, Flyin' Brian. Who really cares enough to have to dissect ones playing to fully understand why it doesn't sound good/correct? I really don't care to.

It seems that everytime I hear or read about how good Pat Metheny and/or Jim Hall are, it's followed up with comments on how deep their playing is. It seems that one would need to be an absolute scholar, a graduate of Berklee School of Music or the equivalent to fully understand what the hell they are playing . . . or trying to say with their instruments.
Maybe their target audience is intended to be extremely knowledgable musicians? That seems to be the largest demographic of their work. Maybe most find Jim Hall's playing to be very boring . . . as I do . . . because we aren't knowledgable enough to understand what the hell he's doing? Sorry . . I really don't care what he's doing. I don't care how musically correct it is . . . or how musically intricate it is . . . for me, if it isn't ear delicious or enjoyable. To me, it's boring! I don't and can't appreciate it. I think if I was as knowledgable as William Leavitt I would still find Jim Hall's playing to be boring.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Who really cares enough to have to dissect ones playing to fully understand why it doesn't sound good/correct? I really don't care to.

I may have told the story before, but anyway:

Many years ago, there was a blindfold test in a Danish jazz magazine, where the very intellectual interviewer played a Charlie Parker recording for the Danish drummer Jorn Elniff and asked if he could hear a "cry" for this and that in the segregeated American society and whatnot. I still remember Elniffs wonderful reply: "I don't know. I never knew Parker. But it's helluwa fine music, don't you think?".

[Patrick2]

Originally Posted by oldane

I may have told the story before, but anyway:

Many years ago, there was a blindfold test in a Danish jazz magazine, where the very intellectual interviewer played a Charlie Parker recording for the Danish drummer Jorn Elniff and asked if he could hear a "cry" for this and that in the segregeated American society and whatnot. I still remember Elniffs wonderful reply: "I don't know. I never knew Parker. But it's helluwa fine music, don't you think?".

I hear what you're sayng oldane. But, this is an assessment from a drummer, more than likely not at all knowledgable in harmony, theory intervalic expression etc.. But, it certainly does apply to what I said in my last post. Maybe if it was another horn player, with excellent ears and a solid grasp of music theory, he/she might have given a far more indepth response? But, does anyone really think that Charlie Parker thought those line through as in depth, musically, as someone who might break them down to interpret them? I seriously doubt it.

This gentleman Matt Warnock was kind enough to post "3 Classic Metheny line that you can learn today". I listened to PM blow on "All the thing you are". Wow! Fantastic. But, does anyone actually think that he was totally thinking, theoretically, about every note and every line he was playing? I doubt that's humanly possible. He was framing, he was accenting and highlighting . .. but, for the most part, he was just blowing.

I met a guy Jerry Engle, in a studio in Ohio a few years back. He was a Larry Carlton FANATIC. Played an ES 335, knew all of LC's songs, turn arounds . . etc.. He told me a story, don't know how true it was or wasn't . . but, the guy seemd pretty credible. He said he met LC in a studio out in LA when he was there mixing down from an artist's master. He struck a conversation with LC and the topic centered around one specific song. He said to larry "I really like the way you used . . . . . "
To which Larry responded . . . "Oh . . is that what I did? I was just playing man".

Maybe that's why Jim Hall is so musically boring . . to me. Maybe he's so focused on playing notes that will fit and that others might not go directly to . . . that he abandons trying to sound good to the ear. Maybe that's why he plays so few notes?

[brwnhornet59]

There are plenty of monsters in the jazz history to dig and hear, spending 10 years listening to Bill Evans (whose music I really live) and forgeting Milles, Parker, Coltrane, Armstrong, Jarrett, etc.. is not exactly wise.

Forgetting? I listen to them all daily, and many others besides. There was nothing said about exclusively listening to Evans, though I go through periods where I listen to him more often than others.

My perception of jazz, and music in general, has changed many times over the past 40 years that I have spent listening to it. That is the nature of maturation. As my perception has changed so has my taste for, and understanding of, the Artists I listen to. So one can see that ones appreciation can lessen or grow as our understanding changes. There are many Artists I do not listen to anymore because my tastes have changed. There are a few Artists that have stood the test of time and I can say that Evans, Metheny and Hall are among them. Of course Miles, Tatum, Baker and more have as well.

I think that is the point that Hawk was making. At least that is the way I took it. As for depth, Music is an ocean. Some people wade through the surf at the beach, others snorkel and some deep sea dive. It is all relative to ones experiences and perception. It is not a contest of who is better, or who is more obtuse. To me it is a mirror into our soul and a matter of taste. We all hear the same melodies, harmonies and rhythms, yet we all experience them slightly differently. Such is the beauty of Art, but you have to put in the time and live it to know it. IMO

[jorgemg1984]

If I listened for Bill Evans every day for 10 years I would not have to time do properly hear other players. Nothing said about exclusivety right but to me "You'll need to listen to him daily for at least ten years" is not very far from it.

I agree you don't have to be a phenomenal players or have a PHD in music to have an opinion on a player, although I have disliked stuff in the past that I do like now and now I see I lacked knowledge to understand it. But not liking a player is not the same as not understading him.. sometimes you do understand how good the player is (as I discussed earlier about Jim Hall with Patrick) but you just don't like him.

[aniss1001]

Originally Posted by Nighthawks

Pat Metheny and Jim Hall are living legends on the guitar....

No offence but it sounds to me like you're trying to turn your own personal preference and opinion into some kind of natural law or absolute truth or something. Perhaps I am wrong and you simply "forgot" to add an "IMO" somewhere in there. If that isn't the case I'd say you have misunderstood something very basic about music. Namely that there IS NO absolute truth. They are not athletes that can be rated objectively. There are only opinions and we all know that there are as many of those as there are human beings.

For instance I have heard people say that KURT COBAIN is the greatest guitarist ever. Personally I don't even consider him a guitarist. To me he was a lousy songwriter and worse singer who fiddled a bit with a guitar. But can I say that they are wrong? NO! If they like Cobain better than anyone else then to THEM he is the best.

And this "listen to Evans every day for 10 years"? That would be like if I said that Scofield is the greatest jazz musician ever objectively speaking. If you listen to him intensely for a period of 20 years like I have then and only then will you understand why. Otherwise you don't know what you're talking about. Come back in 20 years when you're knowledgable enough to have an opnion. See my point?

All in all your post comes off as extremely arrogant and presumptious to me. But again I am not one to judge and perhaps you weren't speaking in absolute terms allthough it kind of sounded like it.

I apologize if I have misunderstood your post and offended you in any way...

PS: For the record Evans (together with Jarret) is my favorite pianist too...

[Jabberwocky]

Originally Posted by aniss1001

No offence but .....

All in all your post comes off as extremely arrogant and presumptious to me. But again I am not one to judge and perhaps you weren't speaking in absolute terms allthough it kind of sounded like it.

I apologize if I have misunderstood your post and offended you in any way...

PS: For the record Evans (together with Jarret) is my favorite pianist too...

You have misunderstood him. It is clear to me that Nighthawk was stating his opinion (without writing the redundant IMO). Let's not get our knickers in a knot. We are all stating our opinions here. It only becomes a fact if it requires corroboration and can be corroborated.

Opinions are like a$$holes; everybody has one. Lighten up.

Heritage headstocks are ugly and Gibson makes the best archtops. (That's an opinion and opinions require no corroboration. The best part about opinions; they are free and they really mean nothing.)

[aniss1001]

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

You have misunderstood him. It is clear to me that Nighthawk was stating his opinion (without writing the redundant IMO).

You are very likely right. Allthough when I read it I got the opposite impression. For instance..

"To really understand these players, you'll need to listen to the greatest jazz musician of all time...Bill Evans. You'll need to listen to him daily for at least ten years and then you will understand how deep the above guitar players are and were."

It just sounds too absolute to me. But I did give him the benefit of the doubt and apoligized in advance so I see no need to lighten up. I have no problem with opinions that differ from mine at all, but I do get provoked when someone thinks that his opinion is more valid than those of others.

[Klatu]

Scott LaFaro didn't listen to Bill Evans daily for 10 years.

[Jabberwocky]

Cultural differences? Water in Argentina, perhaps? Does the word "opinion" have a different meaning in The Antipodes?

I'm gonna score me some of them Argentine Chronic and chill out a little. I said that I would quit smoking that shit. It is getting too heavy around here these days.

Don't opine so readily, as my mammy used to say, you could get yourself killed.

[aniss1001]

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

Cultural differences? Water in Argentina, perhaps? Does the word "opinion" have a different meaning in The Antipodes?

I'm gonna score me some of them Argentine Chronic and chill out a little. I said that I would quit smoking that shit. It is getting too heavy around here these days.

Don't opine so readily, as my mammy used to say, you could get yourself killed.

Hmmm... Sorry I don't get this post at all...