Finally experienced "The Loar" guitars...

Retroman1969 · #1 01-20-2012, 01:45 PM

Who knew? I stopped at a tiny guitar shop in a small town while driving through and turns out they're a The Loar dealer.
They had just sold their LH600 and LH300, (more on order) but they had an LH350 and LH200 still on the rack so I spent a little time with them.

Two totally different types of guitars that both play great. The 200 (basically a '30s style small-bodied acoustic) was light and comfortable, loud clear ringing tone, and the 350 (imagine an Eastman AR371 with neck-mounted floater and single volume control) sounded nice both plugged and un-plugged.

Overall, they played and sounded great, loved the hardware which looked vintage and decent quality, and they generally looked awesome... when stepped back. But holding them and inspecting them up close and the fit and finish is fairly sloppy. On both , there were spots of thin dull finish, uneven or bare spots around hardware and joints. Inside, perfling was well done, clean of glue marks, but the braces looked rough and there was the remnant of a chunk of duct tape inside the 200 on the X-brace.

So now I can understand the many frustrated reviews on these guitars.
It's a cool concept. They play easy, look awesome and sound even better, but QC appears to be virtually non-existant.

To be honest, at only $275, I'm still tempted by the little 200 as a couch-jammer with built-in retro-coolness factor.
The 350 at $650 is too close to the new Eastmans to be any real temptation.
I'm still anxious to see the 300 when it comes in to see how I like it.

LH200:

LH350:

Mikomamanga · #2 01-20-2012, 02:04 PM

You are right about the temptation... the prices are pretty tempting... but the things you say about the quality check is just what I expected. I have been a little sceptical about a fully carved guitar (that´s what they say, isn´t it?) for that kind of money is too much to ask. I just bought a chines made Höfner, and it was a great disappointment. Bad finish all over. It didn´t help, that the string holder was broken and there was a bulky area in the cutaway area. So I burned my fingers on that one... returned it, of course... (still waiting for my money, come to think of it...!) So I am on the lookout again, but all I seem to be able to get in the shops (Copenhagen, Denmark), is Ibanez... the cheap quality Artcore models and Epiphone. A little dull. And I don´t think I want to chance buying an instrument on the web again. I´ll need to try it first.

Retroman1969 · #3 01-20-2012, 07:54 PM

I hear ya'.
That's why I'm glad I found this dealer. I've heard a lot about these on the Internet, but so much of it was hot and cold that I really wanted to see them in person before getting too interested in them.
I agree about Epiphone and Ibanez models. Actually great and consistent quality for the price, but heavy and a bit cold.
The Loar is almost there, but not quite. It's a craps shoot at least. I admit I still really like them though.
I don't know how available Eastmans are in your neck of the woods, or what the prices are compared to here, but the new lower priced models are just a hair above the Loars, Epis, Hofners and Ibanez... But a huge leap in quality and tone.
Had I discovered the Loar dealer before I bought my Eastman AR371, I still would have gone with the 371.
Best of luck on your search.

mr. beaumont · #4 01-20-2012, 08:02 PM

Well the quality control concerns of the past we a lot more concerning than these cosmetic flaws you mention.

I recently purchased an lh 600...it did have all the cosmetic flaws you noticed. Had a high fret too.

The fret took one whack from a hammer with a t shirt held against the fretboard. I can live with the ugly spots...they're small and basically not noticable...to anyone but me...

So the way I see it, I got a all solid wood archtop that needed a little love for $650 bucks (I've seen em as low as $820 new. Pretty sweet deal...if you're willing to deal with a guitar

Retroman1969 · #5 01-20-2012, 08:14 PM

Oh yeah, like I say, I still love how they look and sound. And I'm still curious to check out the 300 when it comes in. I'm kind-of interested in a non-cutaway acoustic and if it played well and I could swing a deal on one of those I'd still be tempted.

PS: However, holding the 350 and the 371 side-by-side, the fit and finish on the 371 was way superior, and they're virtually the same price. I guess that's the point I was trying to make.

mr. beaumont · #6 01-20-2012, 08:54 PM

I think eastman's quality is on par with the best of the best in production guitars.

But they've only recently entered the sub 1k market, and that's with an all laminate instrument...not that I think solid wood is necessarily better in an archtop, just different...but I definitely understand why it costs more...

Rob MacKillop · #7 01-21-2012, 02:32 AM

My Loar 700 VS had only one flaw - in the tailpiece. I complained and they sent me a new tailpiece. The guitar is now as perfect as I could ever hope for. I love this guitar! See videos: Plectrum Guitar Rob MacKillop ~ banjos, guitars, lutes and more

Mikomamanga · #8 01-21-2012, 02:34 AM

I haven´t tried the Eastman guitars. Seen them, though, and they seem to be of a higher quality than most of the production guitars around. But now that we´re on that subject, I am not sure I have ever fully understood the difference between or the reasons why laminated wood is used on some guitars and solid wood on others... Obviously solid wood must give a better acoustic tone, if the instrument is made by a competent luthier, but the prices don´t necessarily follow the solid wood... Gibson is expensive, and I think their guitars are almost exclusively made of laminated wood. Ibanez has an expensive line, made in Japan, also laminated. Is it generally a question of fighting feedback - problems, that laminated wood is used? Or is it a question of "keeping up appearances", when Gibson tags an ES175 with almost 3000,- dollars? Is it because it is made in America? And then comes along these The Loar guitars, made in China, and of course they are cheaper than an american made instrument, but that much cheaper? You can get a fully carved, German made Höfner for 3500,- dollars, and whenever you say fully carved in Europe, we are talking about an absolutely handmade instrument, maybe even from an independent luthier, and the price tag will be about the 3500,- dollars. Aand The Loar are around 600 dollars. Something is not right... There is a saying, that "when something seems to be too good to be true... it is!"

Oh, and another thing, a bit off the topic, I own an old Höfner, from some time ind the fifties, I think, and the acoustic tone is actually very loud... not all that pretty, perhaps, but it can make a lot of noise! - and it is most certainly made of laminated wood. So the soundvolume doesn´t necessarily follow the solid wood either.

Sorry for the confusion. Maybe there isn´t one single reason for the solid wood versus laminated apart from the obvious, that most cheaper guitars are made of laminated wood because of the production process.

I guess I should get some more info on the different techniques to fight feedback problems, that might give me an idea of what is up and down.

Mikomamanga · #9 01-21-2012, 02:40 AM

Oh, by the way, where are Eastman made? Their website indicate a country in the far East... but where?

rickshapiro · #10 01-21-2012, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikomamanga

Oh, by the way, where are Eastman made? Their website indicate a country in the far East... but where?

I thought China?

Retroman1969 · #11 01-21-2012, 04:42 AM

It is a confusing mess, Miko.

The easier question: Eastmans are made in Beijing, China.
The other multilayered question, without trying to spark any socio-political debates: (I wont even pretend to be an expert in the technical differences between hand-carved solid woods and formed laminates, but I would think hand carved solid wood tops would vibrate more freely and naturally, producing a more pleasant and organic sound). The overall price is determined by so many other factors, though. The two biggest seem to be labor costs and marketability.
In a nutshell, A company like Gibson has much higher labor costs than the average company in the East (including Eastman), and it banks on the sale ability of its own folklore and the phrase "Made in the USA". There's also of course more hand work in higher-end guitars usually, and the cheaper ones are mostly rushed out on something more like an assembly line. This makes the type of woods and method forming them secondary in affecting the price.

Like you, I can also have a local luthier hand-craft an instrument cheaper than the average Gibson or Martin or other high-end corporate made guitar, but then again, he's not:
Paying operation and maintenance costs for a multi-thousand square foot factory,
Paying worker compensation and benefits to hundreds of employees,
Paying off various inspectors,
Satisfying shareholders,
Sending executives to Washington to lobby for looser laws and tax breaks. (speaking of that, corporate executives in the U.S. are insanely overcompensated compared to the typical Asian model)
Etc, etc...

(Please send all hate mail in person to: Guido Gutman, Behind the Hot Water Pipes, Basement Floor, Grand Central Station. He'll take care of you)

va3ux · #12 01-21-2012, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop

My Loar 700 VS had only one flaw - in the tailpiece. I complained and they sent me a new tailpiece. The guitar is now as perfect as I could ever hope for. I love this guitar! See videos: Plectrum Guitar Rob MacKillop ~ banjos, guitars, lutes and more

Rob,

I just watched your videos of the Loar and the short-scale classical guitar. Can you briefly describe how you are recording these guitars ? It's done well in my opinion and the acoustic tone is well captured.

I didn't realize until now what an accomplished player you are. I think I spent more time watching the classical guitar videos than anything else. I was unaware of the short-scale classical guitar but I like it. The Volpe stuff on the Loar is also very good.

Thanks in advance....Phil

oldane · #13 01-21-2012, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikomamanga

So I am on the lookout again, but all I seem to be able to get in the shops (Copenhagen, Denmark), is Ibanez... the cheap quality Artcore models and Epiphone. A little dull. And I don´t think I want to chance buying an instrument on the web again. I´ll need to try it first.

In Denmark, there's a shop in Holbæk specializing in jazz guitars and gear. They have a nice selecton of various jazz guitar brands. I have bought a speaker and some cables from them, and they delievered the goods fast and well packed. They have a real shop and a showroom where you can try out the guitars.

Check it out here: Jazzisten

mr. beaumont · #14 01-21-2012, 09:43 AM

It's certainly cost of labor.

It's materials too. The maple on my loar is flamed and pretty, but it's nothing like what hofner uses.

By Gibson as a gauge, Hofner's are criminally underpriced...truly some of the finest guitars in the world.

I've only had my loar for a few weeks, but they're not too good to be true. Any ibanez or epiphone off the shelf will have a much more pristine look, and likely a better setup. I'm thinking more and more that the loar is about giving you the sound and materials, and the player needs to make some adjustments and ignore some cosmetic flaws and then they have a heck of a guitar for the price.

I'm a fan...but maybe that's partially because I know how to do a setup and have some rudimentary fretwork skills. I would have paid a good $100 more to have someone do the work I did to mine to get it in top playing shape...but in the grand scheme of things, that's still cheap.

Rob MacKillop · #15 01-21-2012, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by va3ux

Rob,

I just watched your videos of the Loar and the short-scale classical guitar. Can you briefly describe how you are recording these guitars ? It's done well in my opinion and the acoustic tone is well captured.

I didn't realize until now what an accomplished player you are. I think I spent more time watching the classical guitar videos than anything else. I was unaware of the short-scale classical guitar but I like it. The Volpe stuff on the Loar is also very good.

Thanks in advance....Phil

Hi Phil,
Thanks. Glad you like the videos. For the small-scale classical videos I used a Zoom H2 and an old camera. I was pleased with the results, but thought I would upgrade. So, the Loar videos are made with a Rode NT40 stereo mic, a Panasonic SD 60 camera, a Fostex FR2LE recorder, the sound editing software was Steinberg Wavelab Essential, and the video editing software was Vegas Studio - the 'lite' version.
Cheers,
Rob

Mikomamanga · #16 01-21-2012, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldane

In Denmark, there's a shop in Holbæk specializing in jazz guitars and gear. They have a nice selecton of various jazz guitar brands. I have bought a speaker and some cables from them, and they delievered the goods fast and well packed. They have a real shop and a showroom where you can try out the guitars.

Check it out here: Jazzisten

Yep, I know, the owner´s name is Palle, and it is a pleasure to be in his shop. I was there before Christmas last year, and I bought a Fender Blues Junior amp - a very, very nice and very, very loud (if you need it) little amp. But he only had Ibanez and Höfner models in the modest price range. I´m sure he is trying his best, but I would like to try out some more models before I make a decision.

Mikomamanga · #17 01-21-2012, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

It's certainly cost of labor.

It's materials too. The maple on my loar is flamed and pretty, but it's nothing like what hofner uses.

By Gibson as a gauge, Hofner's are criminally underpriced...truly some of the finest guitars in the world.

I've only had my loar for a few weeks, but they're not too good to be true. Any ibanez or epiphone off the shelf will have a much more pristine look, and likely a better setup. I'm thinking more and more that the loar is about giving you the sound and materials, and the player needs to make some adjustments and ignore some cosmetic flaws and then they have a heck of a guitar for the price.

I'm a fan...but maybe that's partially because I know how to do a setup and have some rudimentary fretwork skills. I would have paid a good $100 more to have someone do the work I did to mine to get it in top playing shape...but in the grand scheme of things, that's still cheap.

I believe you are right about the Loar. Maybe they are actually delivering good sound for a good price, and then you have to compromise a bit on the build quality... I like the retrolook and design, anyway. I should be able to do the setup and make some adjustments myself... so maybe The Loar is the thing, actually. Thanks for the advice. If I know myself, I´m not about to make any fast decisions, though...

Mikomamanga · #18 01-21-2012, 01:52 PM

By the way, I recently discovered that Washburn has a jazz guitar line. I own a Washburn jumbo, and the money I spent on that, are the best money I have ever spent on anything, ever! it is such a pleasure to pick it up, and I´m still amazed (after three years of marriage ;o)) about the deep, rich sound it has... It really makes me a better player. If I could count on a Washburn jazz model to give me that feeling, I wouldn´t hesitate for many splitseconds!

oldane · #19 01-21-2012, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikomamanga

But he only had Ibanez and Höfner models in the modest price range.

Oh, then he has much more on his website than he has in stock. Well, I guess he would tie up a lot of capital if he had it all in his inventory in such a small country as Denmark where jazzguitar players are so few.

Retroman1969 · #20 01-21-2012, 11:00 PM

Rob, I also enjoyed the vids. Makes me even more curious to check out the LH300 and 600.
Mr.B, I actually enjoy doing my own setups and adjustments (but fretwork is a little beyond me), so I shouldn't let that bother me, you're right (if they were trying to ask $1500 for them, it might be a different story). They do sound nice. I guess the random cosmetic flaws should make them feel more like "players" instead of something I treat with kid gloves that I'm afraid to scratch.

girevikdavid · #21 01-24-2012, 06:00 PM

Well, after really extensive internet research and playing the few acoustic archtops that are available in my area, I decided to order a Loar 700. I'm getting it from Musician's Friend in the US and they give a 45 day period in which you can return the guitar at their expense if you don't like it. I decided that even if I go through several and am ultimately rewarded with the fantastic tone that I hear on videos it will have been worth it. BTW the price was good also. They are having a 15% off sale so the cost came only to a few dollars over one thousand.
Fingers crossed. A full report will follow in a week or so.

Rob, I also am a big fan of your site and artistry. Thank you very much for sharing with us.

David

Rob MacKillop · #22 01-25-2012, 01:10 AM

Thanks, David, and good luck with your purchase. I hope you get a good one. The right strings can make a big difference, so do expect a period of experimentation to get what is right for both the guitar and you. Keep us posted.

girevikdavid · #23 01-31-2012, 09:34 PM

My new 700 arrived today and I'm thrilled with it! I'm a beginner so I can't really give a review from the perspective of an experienced player, but I will share some thoughts.
First, and probably most important to me is that it's a keeper. I was anxious that I might have to send it back but that's not the case. The case, speaking of cases appears bulletproof. No complaints whatsoever, especially in view of those of you who couldn't get one.
The guitar is gorgeous, comfortable to hold and play, and unlike some other Loar's I've seen, is extremely well put together. No evidence of mal-aligned components, chips, dings, glue globs, or non-intact bracing. The action is a little high for me but probably right about where it needs to be to project. I bought a set of flat tops but probably will just leave the D'addario PB's on for a while to get used to the guitar. I am having a professional set up tomorrow so we'll see what he has to say.
The tone of the guitar is incredibly variable depending on what type of pick is used. It ranged all the way from sweet and mellow with a Dugain acrylic to full Freddy with a Fender medium. I can only see the voice improving with age and use. The neck presented no problems to me and in fact feels very comfortable. The tuners seem to hold tune nicely after the new strings were brought up to proper pitch. Actually, the intonation seemed pretty spot on but we'll leave the final judgement on that up to the professional.
The only negative thing that I have to report is that the top finish appeared to have been polished with a heavy hand. If I were a collector and not simply interested in a great sounding/playing instrument, I probably would have returned it as there are tiny "scratches" on the face of the instrument. Only the face, not the sides or back. Other than that I love it and look forward to many years of growing into it as a player. I can't imagine a better value for a beautiful acoustic archtop with stellar sound.

teamster · #24 01-31-2012, 10:28 PM

Hi David,
Congrats on the 700, They're pretty cool guitars
Got any pics, everybody likes em.
Best of luck with it.

Cheers.

Rob MacKillop · #25 02-01-2012, 01:24 AM

That's great news. I hope you have years of special moments ahead of you. One note of caution, I tried flatwounds on my 700, and they cut the volume by half. I replaced them with phosphor bronze strings, and it sounds amazing.

Mikomamanga · #26 02-01-2012, 02:15 AM

Sounds wonderful. It is very good to hear that the guitar is well made. That was my main concern after receiving a Chinese made Höfner that was just completely unacceptable. But The Loar seem to have have figured it out. I´ll take a look at the possibilities... It is a bit like a Volkswagen Beetle: "It is ugly, but it gets you there!"... Except The Loar isn´t ugly...

Congratulations!

Retroman1969 · #27 02-01-2012, 03:12 AM

Congrats and thanks for the review. The people that get a good one seem to just love them, and it looks like you did.

By the way, flatwounds aren't really reccomended on an acoustic as they really deaden the sound. Not saying you shouldn't try them, but I'm not sure you'll like them on there.

girevikdavid · #28 02-01-2012, 09:52 AM

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression about the strings. I wasn't planning on using flatwounds, but the D'Addario Flat Tops - a PB string "buffed" smooth. My understanding is that you may lose a little volume but not much with these and they are both easier to play and make no finger noise when shifting position. After everyone's caution though I may just leave the stock D'Addario PB's on for now.

Retroman1969 · #29 02-01-2012, 10:05 AM

Sorry, you're right, I read that wrong. Haven't tried those (what I think some call "half-rounds"). I have been curious about them though.

girevikdavid · #30 02-01-2012, 10:29 AM

The discussion prompted me to look on the package of flat tops and there is a scale that shows the degree of brightness/mellowness of each type of string. Bronze EXP coated 80/20 is at the far end of the brightness spectrum and silk and steel at the other. Flat tops are right next to silk and steel so I think I will stay with the PBs and just get used to them. They describe flat tops as having a "warm/semi-bright tone". Don't think that's what I'm looking for in this instrument.

Ha Ha, when in doubt, read the manual!

Thanks guys.