Godin 5th Avenue

[Whistler]

I'm in the market for a low-end archtop, acoustic only, no pickup, non cutaway.
There seems to be a few forum members that own the Godin Kingpin and particularly like it with the P90.

I'm wondering if there is a tonal difference between the 5th Avenue (no pickup) and the Kingpin. There was a Kingpin that I tried locally but it is now sold. The sound was terrible because of a rattle caused by something loose, so that was not a fair test.

Anybody tried both?
Thanks

[mr. beaumont]

I love my P90 equipped Kingpin. Love. But it does not have much acoustic volume or tone to it...even as I have it strung up with bronze strings.

Seeing that the P90 screws to the top with a minimum of cutting, I find it hard to believe there's much of a difference between the kingpin and all acoustic fifth avenue model.

It's a pleasing tone though...nice for practice at home...but once you play an acoustic archtop with either solid woods or a bigger box or both, it becomes clear...

I'd suggest giving the loar lh 300 a serious look if it's an acoustic archtop you want.

[Retroman1969]

I owned a straight acoustic 5th Ave. for awhile.
It was a nicely made guitar for the most part and played easy, but the sound was a bit thin and choked to my ears. Not very loud.
I believe the top was laminate.
I think it makes a better electric than acoustic, IMHO.

[KevinV]

I've been gassing for a 5th Avenue for quite a while. I've only played the 2-pickup cutaway model, but what I wanted was the non cutaway acoustic as you mentioned. I agree the sound was not as full as a solid top, but for what it is, I think it sounds great. And the neck was VERY comfortable. I couldn't find any issues with it in the short time I played it at the store.

After mulling over my choices, I opted for the Loar LH-600. After receiving 2 duds and returning them I looked again at the 5th Avenue. I made a positive/negative list of going with the 5th or trying another Loar and ended up ordering a 5th in the acoustic only model. It's scheduled for delivery Friday. I'll be better equipped to give my impressions over the weekend if you haven't already made your decision.

[FrankLearns]

I confirm what mr B and Retroman pointed out. Not much accoustic volume, rather thin sounding accoustically. With the right set of strings it sounds nice amplified - but not that fat jazztone. But you haven't been going for that i suppose. Nice build quality.

[ruiner54]

I was close to buying one until I had a chance to play it for 30-40 consecutive minutes....beautiful guitar but as said..thin sound

[Whistler]

Thanks to all for your input.
This confirms my suspicions that the 5th Avenue is best used as an electric. You are right in that they are seem well made and have an attractive (to me) finish. The Kingpin I tried was really nice, except for the rattle.

Perhaps The Loar is the way to go. There is an LH-300 in a local store. Awesome sound and playability. Unfortunately, the bridge is bottomed out with no remaining adjustment. Based on other's experience, I might have to try several before finding a good one.

Thanks again.
Larry

[gusgtr]

I have that exact model pictured above. It stays on the couch and is my go to guitar for noodling while watching tv. They're a lot of fun to play

[Doctor Jeff]

I have the P90 version - same as the acoustic except for the routed pickup. The acoustic version has brass strings, which gives it a brighter tone.

It is a very nice, comfortable guitar to play. Not extremely loud, but louder than most laminated jazz boxes. I had thought about getting the acoustic version and adding a pickup, either a floating bucker or an undersaddle piezo pickup. If I were buying again and could get a 5th Ave. for under $400, that's what I'd do.

As noted, the build quality is excellent, and it is an absolutely beautiful guitar.

[Whistler]

[quote=KevinV;196069]I've been gassing for a 5th Avenue for quite a while.
I made a positive/negative list of going with the 5th or trying another Loar and ended up ordering a 5th in the acoustic only model. It's scheduled for delivery Friday. I'll be better equipped to give my impressions over the weekend if you haven't already made your decision.

Kevin, I hope your 5th Avenue gets here tomorrow. I'm very interested in hearing your opinion.

[bborzell]

I play my Kingpin unplugged fairly often. While it clearly shines when amplified, it still sounds good to me when it's not. It is not a cannon, but it is very well balanced across the strings.

As a couch guitar, it is a reasonable second behind my Taylor GS Mini.

[KevinV]

Originally Posted by Whistler

Kevin, I hope your 5th Avenue gets here tomorrow. I'm very interested in hearing your opinion.

Yep, it left Jacksonville a few hours ago and is still scheduled for delivery tomorrow. Should be here when I get home from work or shortly thereafter. I've got a set of TI Spectrum Bronze 13-57 that will be going on this weekend.

[KevinV]

My 5th Avenue arrived yesterday and I swapped out the strings and did a good setup on it. I don't have a Kingpin here so I can't do a side by side, but in the way of playability, this one plays as nicely as I remember the other one.

I love the look and feel of this guitar. It's a very nice neck and the body is comfortable to hold. The tone is decent, but a bit brighter than I'd prefer...different strings can address this to some extent. As for volume, there's really not a whole lot. I can't see this guitar cutting through any mix unplugged.

My take is that it's a very comfortable guitar with just the right amount of volume for solo practice and play, but without a pickup, I don't see it leaving the house much.

[va3ux]

I'm curious : does anyone actually expect an archtop like this to compete - tone and volume wise - with a traditional flat top guitar ?

[mr. beaumont]

Well an archtop can have surprising volume...and tone is subjective...a flattop doesn't sound better...only different.

But I do hope nobody expects too much volume out of the fifth ave or kingpin...it's a small, relatively shallow, laminated box.

I'd actually say it is pretty loud considering!

Still great guitars...played my kingpin this morning.

[anothersixstringer]

On your playing style, intended use, strings and setup.
I had a 5th ave 1P90 kingpin, and now I own a no pickup one. I strung the kingpin with flats 12 and later with Thomastik 13s. I got the action to be medium and mostly used a 5mm wegen pick. Results were very good for comping, but for soloing I felt it needed more punch when acoustically played. Amplified sound was great. Months later I got a full blown, all solid mahogany Heritage Eagle, gorgeous guitar, 17 inches and all goodies. Guess what, I found that to make it sing it needed strings 13-56 and NOT the thomastik ones as they have low tension, but the regular chromes. With that setup and medium action, the guitar would be playing awesome. Mind you, not like butter, thick strings made up for a right hand workout when playing full chords. On a side note, I think that I discovered why swing guys play with three finger chords!!!
Loved the guitar but was too much physical exercise for a joyful experience, so I sold it.
Things happen for a reason, so I got the 5th ave no pickup, put daddario rounds 13-56 and set a medium action...voila! Great, full archtop sound when swing comping with the thumb and high volume soloing with a pick. And no, there is no viceversa, comping with a pick is thin and soloing with fingers has no volume. However, comping with thumb and pick works great (GJ technique).
Remember that it being an acoustic guitar responds to your every nuance, subletly, angle, touch, style, experience etc. In other words, not sounding like django or freddie green is not the guitar's fault!
Im happy with the 5th ave and plan to keep it for Gypsy Jazz jams and for my big band rhythm guitar gig, cheers!!!

Btw, im not a godin endorsee, but this is my 5th godin!!! Realky amazing quality, value and price, specially on the used market

[Norman931]

Originally Posted by va3ux

I'm curious : does anyone actually expect an archtop like this to compete - tone and volume wise - with a traditional flat top guitar ?

I've played my Kingpin unamplified a few times comping for singers in low-volume situations.Though it is laminate construction, some of the design features (light weight, non-cutaway, raised fingerboard) tend to enhance its acoustic properties. Not in the same league as a D-28 or even my Eastman 810, but not bad for an electric archtop.

[KevinV]

Originally Posted by va3ux

I'm curious : does anyone actually expect an archtop like this to compete - tone and volume wise - with a traditional flat top guitar ?

I don't expect it to compete with a flat top, but it seems that I should be getting more volume out of it for what it is. The fact that the stock bridge isn't making full contact with the top may be causing it to come up short of its potential. I also think a rosewood bridge would help with my tonal preferences but may or may not affect volume.

This isn't my first archtop acoustic. It's the most comfortable of what I've had, but also the quietest.

[anothersixstringer]

recent gig including the 5th avenue...the pickguard was removed to accommodate the Krivo Djangobucker pickup. sound was awesome through a Henriksen JazzAmp + Tweetey. Strings 13-56 and high action (set on purpose for tone and volume)

[modsupremo]

Originally Posted by KevinV

I've been gassing for a 5th Avenue for quite a while. I've only played the 2-pickup cutaway model, but what I wanted was the non cutaway acoustic as you mentioned. I agree the sound was not as full as a solid top, but for what it is, I think it sounds great. And the neck was VERY comfortable. I couldn't find any issues with it in the short time I played it at the store.

After mulling over my choices, I opted for the Loar LH-600. After receiving 2 duds and returning them I looked again at the 5th Avenue. I made a positive/negative list of going with the 5th or trying another Loar and ended up ordering a 5th in the acoustic only model. It's scheduled for delivery Friday. I'll be better equipped to give my impressions over the weekend if you haven't already made your decision.

Thanks Kevin, this comment is a very useful piece of info.

I was about to order a Loar LH650 NA but suddenly decided to put it on hold or to change my choice of guitar. I have read and heard a lot of horror stories about the craftsmanship and quality of this particular brand/model so here I am opting for a Godin 5th Ave Kingpin or the 5th Ave Kingpin CW2P90 CG. Question to all you folks, is the Godin 5th Ave Kingpin CW2P90 CG and the Godin 5th Ave Kingpin II the same?

Thanks a million in advance!

[bborzell]

Originally Posted by modsupremo

Thanks Kevin, this is a very useful comment piece of info.

I was about to order a Loar LH650 NA but suddenly decided to put it on hold or to change my choice of guitar. I have read and heard a lot of horror stories about the craftsmanship and quality of this particular brand/model so here I am opting for a Godin 5th Ave Kingpin or the 5th Ave Kingpin CW2P90 CG. Question to all you folks, is the Godin 5th Ave Kingpin CW2P90 CG and the Godin 5th Ave Kingpin II the same?

Thanks a million in advance!

Yes they are the same. 2 P90s in each case. One might think that the single P90 Kingpin might be called Kingpin I, but It seems to be just a Kingpin. The key is to decide how many P90s you want and mention that when placing the order.

You are making a good decision.

[RoyaleT]

I have a KingpinIICW and an Aria FA71. They, along with the 70 and solid top 77 are great bang for the buck guitars. Godin makes the 5th Ave. acoustic, Kingpin(no cut away, single pick up) and the Kingpin IIcw with two set P-90's. They recently added 2 or 3 more models in the $1000+ range. Godin Guitars

[Help!I'maRock!]

Originally Posted by RoyaleT

I have a KingpinIICW and an Aria FA71. They, along with the 70 and solid top 77 are great bang for the buck guitars. Godin makes the 5th Ave. acoustic, Kingpin(no cut away, single pick up) and the Kingpin IIcw with two set P-90's. They recently added 2 or 3 more models in the $1000+ range. Godin Guitars

i'm trying to figure out what makes the 5th Avenue Jazz worth $1900.

[modsupremo]

Originally Posted by bborzell

Yes they are the same. 2 P90s in each case. One might think that the single P90 Kingpin might be called Kingpin I, but It seems to be just a Kingpin. The key is to decide how many P90s you want and mention that when placing the order.

You are making a good decision.

That clears it! Thanks bborzel!

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Help!I'maRock!

i'm trying to figure out what makes the 5th Avenue Jazz worth $1900.

I think Godin said--hey, we'll make a guitar with top quality laminates and sell it for half of what a Gibson 175 goes for.

Looks like folks aren't seeing that as such a bargain, though...

[Help!I'maRock!]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I think Godin said--hey, we'll make a guitar with top quality laminates and sell it for half of what a Gibson 175 goes for.

Looks like folks aren't seeing that as such a bargain, though...

i think it's just because the price is so much higher than the rest of the 5th Avenues.

[FrankLearns]

yes, but it differs in many details of construction. There is a video on YouTube where Robert Godin briefly explains it and also talks about the model that has a Bigsby. It is really not that these are all the same guitars with just a few bells and whistles that are different. One feature is a thicker top. Apologies, i am traveling right now and cannot find that video but i am sure it is not hard to find on YouTube. But it is true that people at Godin could and should do a better job explaining to the jazz community why the jazz model is so much more expensive.

While i absolutely love Godin guitars (have six of them) the only one i still cannot manage to bond strongly with is my Kingpin. I am also not particularly tempted by the jazz.

[Jonah]

Dear Friends,

it depends

I can say why and what I like in Godin I should at least explain what he’s after
I saw terrible demos of guitar that actually sounded fine in my hands and saw very nice performance on the guitar that I dislike…
Some say “bad acoustically” meaning “too low”, others meaning “not metallic enough”,”not ringing”…
I had often seen the guys cursing nylon and I took that after them and showd how that thing might sound.
I used to play classical guitar as a small boy – and also played jazz on piano and electric guitar, later I went for renaissance and baroque lute which is my main musical practice now.
But I still kept fond affection for jazz, from time to time I like improvising and playing staff alone or with some of my friends if it happens, in technique I use all I have obtained from classics and jazz guitar practice and also lute performances… but I never play with plectrum, tried to, but feel better and more interesting in fingerstyle (without nails).
I used my classics for that jazz practice with a little bit softer lute-like right hand osition and without nails, once I thought about looking for an archtop – not necessarily the top model, but something nice both in acoustical tone and amplified.
I tried quite a few – Gretsch, Epiphone, Eastman, Ibanez, cheaper guitars like Washbun, Burny, Cort, Loar and other staff… I tried lots of metal string acoustics – from Gypsy Django boxes to westerns
Frankly, nothing suited me acoustically.
Yes, I got used to classical guitar touch and sound… to me it is the best acoustic staff, the best amplitude of the sound, the best control of it… the best quality of sound in nuances.
Most of the metal string acoustics and archtops have thin tone – very often uneven in bass, medium and high, dynamics and touch nuances are very rough. The boxes are too big for the sound that makes me feel uncomfortable (like I am holding piano in my hand which plays like banjo), necks mostly also not comfortable for the purpose. I know maybe these requirements are not for those kind of guitars, but that’s me.
Then I ran across that Godin 5th ave… yes, it is modest, not very loud instrument, but iy combined a few qualitied that enchated me
1) The acoustic sound is not loud, a little bit dull, but distinct, chord voicing sound very compact and clear – all this with fingerstyle only, it depends on how you play it
2) Not small but compact very comfortable to hold and play – close to classical guitar feel in that sense, I would say very intimate (other archtops seemed always – say, “outside of me”, not together
3) Very well built and prepared for performance – all set up firm and clean, and no chocolate and jam glassy finish))) – just nice warm woods
4) Amplified – well to me the best it sounds like early amplified jazz guitar… a little dry but warm sound - not Motgomery but - maybe Joe Pass on Virtuoso

Summary: fine chamber archtop, can fit also in small groups (even acoustically if you can take it ou of it)))) – and it is good if you’re used to classical guitar construction, very well-built
For big concert box you should try other option.
Maybe I’ll change my mind in time but this is a guitar to stay

All that about acoustic and Kingpin (with P90) models only.

[bborzell]

Originally Posted by Jonah

Dear Friends,

it depends

I can say why and what I like in Godin I should at least explain what he’s after
I saw terrible demos of guitar that actually sounded fine in my hands and saw very nice performance on the guitar that I dislike…
Some say “bad acoustically” meaning “too low”, others meaning “not metallic enough”,”not ringing”…
I had often seen the guys cursing nylon and I took that after them and showd how that thing might sound.
I used to play classical guitar as a small boy – and also played jazz on piano and electric guitar, later I went for renaissance and baroque lute which is my main musical practice now.
But I still kept fond affection for jazz, from time to time I like improvising and playing staff alone or with some of my friends if it happens, in technique I use all I have obtained from classics and jazz guitar practice and also lute performances… but I never play with plectrum, tried to, but feel better and more interesting in fingerstyle (without nails).
I used my classics for that jazz practice with a little bit softer lute-like right hand osition and without nails, once I thought about looking for an archtop – not necessarily the top model, but something nice both in acoustical tone and amplified.
I tried quite a few – Gretsch, Epiphone, Eastman, Ibanez, cheaper guitars like Washbun, Burny, Cort, Loar and other staff… I tried lots of metal string acoustics – from Gypsy Django boxes to westerns
Frankly, nothing suited me acoustically.
Yes, I got used to classical guitar touch and sound… to me it is the best acoustic staff, the best amplitude of the sound, the best control of it… the best quality of sound in nuances.
Most of the metal string acoustics and archtops have thin tone – very often uneven in bass, medium and high, dynamics and touch nuances are very rough. The boxes are too big for the sound that makes me feel uncomfortable (like I am holding piano in my hand which plays like banjo), necks mostly also not comfortable for the purpose. I know maybe these requirements are not for those kind of guitars, but that’s me.
Then I ran across that Godin 5th ave… yes, it is modest, not very loud instrument, but iy combined a few qualitied that enchated me
1) The acoustic sound is not loud, a little bit dull, but distinct, chord voicing sound very compact and clear – all this with fingerstyle only, it depends on how you play it
2) Not small but compact very comfortable to hold and play – close to classical guitar feel in that sense, I would say very intimate (other archtops seemed always – say, “outside of me”, not together
3) Very well built and prepared for performance – all set up firm and clean, and no chocolate and jam glassy finish))) – just nice warm woods
4) Amplified – well to me the best it sounds like early amplified jazz guitar… a little dry but warm sound - not Motgomery but - maybe Joe Pass on Virtuoso

Summary: fine chamber archtop, can fit also in small groups (even acoustically if you can take it ou of it)))) – and it is good if you’re used to classical guitar construction, very well-built
For big concert box you should try other option.
Maybe I’ll change my mind in time but this is a guitar to stay

All that about acoustic and Kingpin (with P90) models only.

I think that this is a fine and accurate assessment of the acoustic and P90 5th Avenues. It certainly fits with my experience with my Kingpin.