Specialty and Boutique Amps are they really worth it.

[rickshapiro]

I've been looking for a new amp rig for my Jazz guitars. I have a Blackstar that I use on my rock gigs and a Fender Princeton (digital one) that I use to practice with. I have been thinking about an AI/RE combo or a Tomkat or Henriksen. I played the Tomkat and Henriksen this weekend and yeah they sounded good but not much better then an off the shelf Fender tube amp. I know this is all subjective and I am not one to throw out conspiracy theories but I am wondering if the high price for "jazz" guitar amps is only due to the scale (size) of the companies that are making these and a perceived notion that electric archtops and other jazz boxes are so unique and specialized that it requires a unique amp for them. There are major manufacturers that make acoustic amps that should work great with true carved archtops. I am not sure the boutique manufactures are coning their own speakers or doing anything totally innovative. $1000+ for solid state amps just seems like a lot.

Again to each his own, and it is up to each individual to determine the value they put on their sound. I am just wondering if this boutique market is more hype then substance.

Regards,

Rick

[cjm]

Originally Posted by rickshapiro

I am just wondering if this boutique market is more hype then substance.

That's a question a philosopher couldn't answer, and it's far above the pay grade of guitar players.

It's the same question posed by the "vintage" sound.

I would point to some experiments conducted with various Stradivari instruments, wherein leading experts could not consistently identify whether or not the instrument being played was a Stradivarius or of contemporary construction when a curtain blocked their view.

[mr. beaumont]

I'm not sure how you could compare a henriksen/ai to a fender tube amp...completely different sound imho.

[rickshapiro]

Originally Posted by cjm

That's a question a philosopher couldn't answer, and it's far above the pay grade of guitar players.

It's the same question posed by the "vintage" sound.

I would point to some experiments conducted with various Stradivari instruments, wherein leading experts could not consistently identify whether or not the instrument being played was a Stradivarius or of contemporary construction when a curtain blocked their view.

I guess the whole this more qualitative then quantitative. Is a Rivera "fender" type amp 300% better sounding (worth 3 times the price) then the equivalent standard Fender? I would doubt if you looked at it quantitatively it would be. Same with a henriksen/ai versus a Fender Mustang.

[Jim Soloway]

Originally Posted by rickshapiro

Is a Rivera "fender" type amp 300% better sounding (worth 3 times the price) then the equivalent standard Fender? I would doubt if you looked at it quantitatively it would be. .

If that's how you frame the question, then the answer will almost always be no but I don't think it's a valid way to frame the question. The actual questions ought to be:

1. Does the boutique component provide a noticeable incremental improvement in quality over the generic or less expensive component?

If the answer to question 1 is yes, then it leads to a second question...

2. As a consumer, is that improvement in quality worth the incremental increase in price? This is something which depends entirely on who is providing the answer. To some, the answer will be yes and to others it will be no. They can in fact both be right based on the difference in their perspectives and values.

[marcwhy]

Excellent questions/perspective, Jim!

Marc

[helios]

I think some of the boutique companies offer superior build quality to vintage/yesteryear amp products. The guys at places like Carr, Top Hat, Savage, Victoria etc. are notorious for fussing over every component of the amp signal chain (cabinet construction & speaker glue included). They also have the advantage of modern computer technology in assessing design. They're worth the $$$ to someone!

[raylinds]

I am really into high end audio gear, and I think that may be a somewhat similar type of market. In my experience, after a certain price point you need to lay out a rather signicant amount of money for rather small increments in sound quality, and sometimes what sounds better to me may not sound better to you. For my audio gear, I am willing to lay out the money for relatively small gains in certain aspects of the sound that is important to me. Others may not.

I think it is the same for guitar amps. You will never get a 300% improvement by paying three times more money. Each individual needs to make the determination of whether it is worth it to them to spend the money, assuming they have it to spend.

[Help!I'maRock!]

i'm a Fender Silverface kinda guy. i've owned a buncha Vibro Champs, a Deluxe Reverb, and currently own a Princeton Reverb. while the volume and tone stack are generally good, the effects (tremolo and sometimes reverb) tend to have a small usable range. they sound good, but that range isn't always where i want it to be.

after much research, i finally took the boutique plunge with an Allen Encore. it's basically a tweaked out Vibrolux Reverb. 2x10, 40 watts, reverb & tremolo, etc. but it has a much wider usable range across all controls. it sounds as good or better at low volumes than my Deluxe or Princeton even though it's a larger amp. and on the occasion i need to crank it, it has much more clean headroom than those amps. that's where my extra money went to.

[jorgemg1984]

I agree Henriksen and a tube Fender don't sound alike at all... Given that I have started a thread in the past ("jazz amp prices") where I tried to discuss the subject but it seems it annoys people telling them they paid too much for their amps (a recent thread on the Carr lead to the same result). I have tried several 80s solid state amps on the 200€ that sounded better than my Henriksen (sold recently) - 900€ in Europe. My jazzmaster ultralight costed me 750€ but it does sound better than any thing I played with except for some very good tube amos (or a cheap Music Man).

The article refered by cjm is very interesting actually

Aesthetics and money: Fiddling with the mind | The Economist

Some guys build Fender replicas that are a little more expensive than Fender RI but are more reliable, PTP, true to the originals, good components and a lot of the times you can custom them to your taste.

Others use just the best components on earth and make really expensive amps - and some people said they are worth it. I played recently a 2k Two-Rock and I honestly don't understand who would pay such money for that amp.

Maybe people listen with their wallets, who wants to admit a 4k doesn't sound that good? - maybe I also listened with my wallet when I got my Fender M80 because it just costed me 140€

Buy what you like not what you can afford.

[jorgemg1984]

Originally Posted by raylinds

I am really into high end audio gear, and I think that may be a somewhat similar type of market. In my experience, after a certain price point you need to lay out a rather signicant amount of money for rather small increments in sound quality, and sometimes what sounds better to me may not sound better to you. For my audio gear, I am willing to lay out the money for relatively small gains in certain aspects of the sound that is important to me. Others may not.

I think it is the same for guitar amps. You will never get a 300% improvement by paying three times more money. Each individual needs to make the determination of whether it is worth it to them to spend the money, assuming they have it to spend.

My father works in that business (do you know EISA?) and he agrees with everything you said.

[jorgemg1984]

Originally Posted by Help!I'maRock!

i'm a Fender Silverface kinda guy. i've owned a buncha Vibro Champs, a Deluxe Reverb, and currently own a Princeton Reverb. while the volume and tone stack are generally good, the effects (tremolo and sometimes reverb) tend to have a small usable range. they sound good, but that range isn't always where i want it to be.

after much research, i finally took the boutique plunge with an Allen Encore. it's basically a tweaked out Vibrolux Reverb. 2x10, 40 watts, reverb & tremolo, etc. but it has a much wider usable range across all controls. it sounds as good or better at low volumes than my Deluxe or Princeton even though it's a larger amp. and on the occasion i need to crank it, it has much more clean headroom than those amps. that's where my extra money went to.

Yes but the Allen (or the Gries) are affordable - a little above 1000$. It seems like a wise choice, I would get on of those if I lived in the US.

[Help!I'maRock!]

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

Yes but the Allen (or the Gries) are affordable - a little above 1000$. It seems like a wise choice, I would get on of those if I lived in the US.

my Encore was about $1800 shipped. twice what a clean silverface Vibrolux would have cost me at the time.

[jorgemg1984]

You are right - I had the kits price on my head. So bad argument there. Do you feel it's worth it compared to the Vibrolux?

[Help!I'maRock!]

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

You are right - I had the kits price on my head. So bad argument there. Do you feel it's worth it compared to the Vibrolux?

IMO, it's about usable range and reliability. a silverface Vibrolux is roughly as old as i am. it's going to need servicing and more care. the Allen is brand new. it won't have those issues for at least another 15 years. so in the end, it probably ends up costing the same amount. and i think it sounds better right now.

[Jim Soloway]

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

I agree Henriksen and a tube Fender don't sound alike at all... Given that I have started a thread in the past ("jazz amp prices") where I tried to discuss the subject but it seems it annoys people telling them they paid too much for their amps (a recent thread on the Carr lead to the same result).

Perhaps people get annoyed because there is a difference between discussing value and "telling them they paid too much for their amps". Everybody has their own concept of what's important to them and what's not. That last 5 or 10% may be important to them (as it is to me). So when you tell them that it's not, you are not correcting their choice in amplifiers but rather you are challenging their life values and frankly, that's none of your business. (And honestly, I thought your behavior in the Carr thread was rude and uncalled for).

[rickshapiro]

Expensive wine and cheap plonk taste the same to most people | Science | The Guardian. I wonder if this is the same with amps.

[jorgemg1984]

Ok good points there!

I just reminded my tech recently build an exact replica of a vintage Marshall (don't remember the model). The entire thing (no labor cost of course) costed around 500€ - with very good components, transformers, PTP, ... Marhsall sells the reissue for more than 2000€ and according to him his sounds much closer to the original.

[Jim Soloway]

Originally Posted by rickshapiro

Expensive wine and cheap plonk taste the same to most people | Science | The Guardian. I wonder if this is the same with amps.

But you're willing to spend almost $5k on a guitar? Feh.

[rickshapiro]

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

Perhaps people get annoyed because there is a difference between discussing value and "telling them they paid too much for their amps". Everybody has their own concept of what's important to them and what's not. That last 5 or 10% may be important to them (as it is to me). So when you tell them that it's not, you are not correcting their choice in amplifiers but rather you are challenging their life values and frankly, that's none of your business. (And honestly, I thought your behavior in the Carr thread was rude and uncalled for).

As the OP it was not my intent to make a judgement on the people that buy expensive amps. I have the funds to buy an expensive amp but am really trying to understand whether there is a real value in doing so. And yes value can mean many different things.

[jorgemg1984]

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

Perhaps people get annoyed because there is a difference between discussing value and "telling them they paid too much for their amps". Everybody has their own concept of what's important to them and what's not. That last 5 or 10% may be important to them (as it is to me). So when you tell them that it's not, you are not correcting their choice in amplifiers but rather you are challenging their life values and frankly, that's none of your business. (And honestly, I thought your behavior in the Carr thread was rude and uncalled for).

I didn't want to question anyone's life values or to be rude in the Carr thread. If it sounded like that it really wasn't my intention. I don't know the members of the forum but I do know people here that will buy a Polytone for 1300€ or use flatwounds because that will "make" them be jazz players. I cannot obviously speak for people I don't know personally. But, again, I had no intention of being rude, just understanding "value".

[rickshapiro]

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

But you're willing to spend almost $5k on a guitar? Feh.

I may also be convinced to spend quite a bit on an amp. I am really just posing the question.

[cosmic gumbo]

They say the one with the most expensive amp, wins.

[ES350]

There's an old rule in engineering and QC: to get the last 5-10% of whatever you want something to do costs up to 50% more.

[oldane]

I have an AI which I use not with a RE cabinet but with a Redstone RS-10ER. But the RE cabinets are also excellent, and both the RE and Redstone cabinets may well be among the best you can get if you want a clean tone. It works very well for me. HOWEVER, the AI amp is more or less "tuned" for acoustic instruments and not for magnetic guitar pickups. For one thing, I find the center frequencies of the AI tone controls less suited for that - the center frequency of the mid range control is far to high. Therefore I use it with a Sansamp Paradriver DI preamp pedal (Phantom Powered from the AI). I set the tone controls on the AI flat and dial in the sound on the ParaDriver and that way I get the presence and sparkle I want. The ParaDriver offers adjustable mid range center frequency, which is very useful. I use a tiny amount of delay on the AI, but if one is more seriously into effects, one may likely want to plug an external and better effects unit into the FX loop of the AI. I find the low cut filter on the AI extremely useful as I can adjust it to just remove the bass boom in a particular room and nothing more above the boom frequency. With that setup I can get almost any kind of tone I can think of (including overdrive which I don't use). A good multieffects unit will also work and will of course offer more effect options, but I like the analog sound af the Paradriver better for clean tones. BTW, Sansamp also have their "character" preamp pedal series, where each pedal mimics a certain amp type. They are also very good. For jazz, the "Blonde" (mimics Fender amps) may be best suited, but of course that depends on personal taste. The Boss FD-1 pedal is also a preamp and also works quite well with the AI, and it's much smaller than a multieffects unit, but the sound is much more "digital" than the analog Samsamp pedals. The difference is very audible in a side-by-side comparison.

[cmajor9]

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

The actual questions ought to be:

1. Does the boutique component provide a noticeable incremental improvement in quality over the generic or less expensive component?

If the answer to question 1 is yes, then it leads to a second question...

2. As a consumer, is that improvement in quality worth the incremental increase in price? This is something which depends entirely on who is providing the answer. To some, the answer will be yes and to others it will be no. They can in fact both be right based on the difference in their perspectives and values.

I think Jim is really on to the way to think about this. First, does a (more expensive) product provide a real, noticeable improvement over a (less expensive) one? Then, crucially, is that improvement worth it to you? That's a question that each one of us can only answer for ourself, and hopefully one that others here will respect our decision about.

That said, I'm all for people bringing to the attention of the forum other solutions that might be cheaper, but give a good/better tonal result. That's something many of us appreciate about the gear threads here. Here's hoping we can keep a balance of enthusiastic and informative, but still respectful, discussion!

[mambosun]

Originally Posted by rickshapiro

I've been looking for a new amp rig for my Jazz guitars. I have a Blackstar that I use on my rock gigs and a Fender Princeton (digital one) that I use to practice with. I have been thinking about an AI/RE combo or a Tomkat or Henriksen. I played the Tomkat and Henriksen this weekend and yeah they sounded good but not much better then an off the shelf Fender tube amp. I know this is all subjective and I am not one to throw out conspiracy theories but I am wondering if the high price for "jazz" guitar amps is only due to the scale (size) of the companies that are making these and a perceived notion that electric archtops and other jazz boxes are so unique and specialized that it requires a unique amp for them. There are major manufacturers that make acoustic amps that should work great with true carved archtops. I am not sure the boutique manufactures are coning their own speakers or doing anything totally innovative. $1000+ for solid state amps just seems like a lot.

Again to each his own, and it is up to each individual to determine the value they put on their sound. I am just wondering if this boutique market is more hype then substance.

Regards,

Rick

There's no single answer to your question, but at the end of the day, an amp is an amp, meaning it is supposed to amplify a given signal, there's not any magic about this. I know, marketing people thinks differently.
This being said, everybody experienced unexpected result from dirt cheap stuff saying that this is THE BARGAIN! In fact they just meet the sound they we're looking for, wether it comes from cheap or expensive gear.
Unless you're a believer, there 's no religion about amp sounds..
Only experience matters....

[Pat Clare]

How much is considered too expensive, is there a figure to gauge it?
I also think that the amount of effects and cost of them factors into it as well. But how much do jazz guitarist's spend on their amp and effect setup and how much is too much?

[Bushwackbob]

Let's face it: The "quest" is an addiction. As such, the "too much" only comes into play when it threatens the marriage or ability to continue to have a roof over one's head...

[Jim Soloway]

Originally Posted by mambosun

There's no single answer to your question, but at the end of the day, an amp is an amp, meaning it is supposed to amplify a given signal, there's not any magic about this. I know, marketing people thinks differently.

A lot of guitar players think differently too. There are very much two schools of thought on this. The first school think of the guitar as basically an acoustic instrument and they believe that the sole job of an amp is to make the guitar louder without modifying it's basic tone. The second school are those who consider the guitar to be an electric instrument, and that an amp is part of the signal chain, interacting with and modifying the tone of the guitar. That's not marketing, that's real. Neither is right or wrong. They just have a different approach and require different tools as a result.